Is "Smite Their Neck" acceptable in Islam for those who are perceived as enemy?

[Edris]

DeExupery:

Dear Edris,

…And as I told you, the illiteracy of Mohammed PBUH is still debatable.

Fox

Ok first of all, you have to know that not just the companions knew that Muhammad pbuh was illiterate, but also the tribe of Quraish knew that, the Jews used to refer to him as “An-Nabey Al-Omey” (i.e. the illiterate Prophet). So even his worst enemies at that time couldn’t deny that he was illiterate. And trust me, they would’ve been more than happy to find a clue that Muhammad pbuh used to know how to read and write.

Allah (swt) also testifies in the Qur’an that Muhammad pbuh was illiterate.

Now, if you have ever read the Qur’an, you’d notice that many of it’s surahs (chapters) begin with letters, like for example surah 2 verse 1 “Alif-Lâm-Mîm”. These letters are considered one of the miracles of the Qur’an and no one knows their meaning or what they stand for except Allah (swt), not even the Prophet pbuh knew their meaning. What’s odd about these letters is that first, no other book ever existed that has something similar to this, not even at our time; imagine a chapter beginning with just three or four letters. Second, These letters where recited by the Prophet pbuh in their original pronunciation as in the Arabic alphabet, and no one at the time of the Prophet pbuh knew the exact pronunciation of the Arabic alphabet except for the experts of the language. So being a literate man alone wasn’t enough to be able to come up with a book like the Qur’an, even the best poets at the time of Prophet Muhammad pbuh couldn’t produce even ten verses similar to the Qur’an. The Qur’an also brought many vocabularies that were not used in the time of the Prophet Pbuh; it was new to the People of Arabia.

“And if all the trees on the earth were pens and the sea (were ink wherewith to write), with seven seas behind it to add to its (supply), yet the Words of Allâh would not be exhausted Verily, Allâh is All¬Mighty, All¬Wise” (Qur’an 31:27)

So it’s a long long shot to claim that Muhammad pbuh was literate. Add to this the many scientific miracles found in the Qur’an that are being proved by science in our time. So no just that Muhammad pbuh had to be an expert in the Arabic language but also in almost every field of science from Histology to Astronomy.

Also, the Qur’an was not revealed upon the Prophet pbuh all at once as one book or even in chapters, but rather in verses as events were unfolding. Before the Prophet’s death; Jibreel pbuh (Angel Gabriel) came to the Prophet and gave him the order of each verse and surah (chapter) in the Qur’an (i.e. where to place each verse and each surah), so the Prophet pbuh gathered the scribes and told them. Imagine you have a puzzle of 114 chapters, 6,236 verses and you have to put them together into one book that makes sense. This alone was a proof enough that the Qur’an was not the work of a human being.

“Alif-Lâm-Râ [These letters are one of the miracles of the Qur’ân and none but Allâh (Alone) knows their meanings] (This is) a Book, the Verses whereof are perfected (in every sphere of knowledge), and then explained in detail from One (Allâh), Who is All-Wise and Well-Acquainted (with all things)” (Qur’an 11:1)

Not done yet, still we have the recitation. There is no other book recited like the Qur’an. The recitation of the Qur’an is called “Tajweed” or “Tarteel”. Many of the Quraish tribe and even non-Arabic speakers converted to Islam just when they heard the recitation of the Qur’an before they understood the meaning of the verses.

alafasy.com/audio/5atma_7af9_24/ram/017.ram

Listen to the testimony of Walid ebn al Mughira who was from Quraish, he never converted to Islam, because he was rich and making money out of the Idols that were surrounding the Ka’aba and Muhammad’s message threatened to destroy these Idols, here Is what Walid said to the leaders of the Quraish tribe after he heard the Qur’an:

" By God : None of you is more conversant than I with poetry, melodious hymns, and songs, and by God never did I hear anything similar to what he says. It is so sweet, and so graceful that it remains at the summit with nothing to surpass it." (Walid ebn el Mughira)

Peace

 

[DeExupery]

Dear Edris,

Seems you understand more than Gonzales (Gonzales thinks that I still debate about Iqra and languange), so I believe it’s better to discuss with you.

Let me get back a bit to show my logic standpoint:

I read that the verse “We Ordained the Children of Israel…” was similar to the Talmud (from Joel, see his posting), and in previous discussion with Brother Gonzales, he mentioned there was so many influence of the Jew and Christian teachings for the generations after Mohammad PBUH.

That makes me think that THERE’S A POSSIBILITY that Mohammed PBUH get an inspiration from the Talmud. Gonzales get rid of the idea by claiming it’s impossible that Mohammed PBUH took it from Talmud because he is illiterate, based on the verse of Iqra.
This popped up two thinking in my head:

1. Was Mohammed PBUH really illiterate?
   • The verse only told us the incident of Jibril forced Mohammed PBUH to read/recite and Mohammed said he couldn’t read/recite. So it could be that:
2. Jibril didn’t bring any book.
3. Jibril brought a book but the language was not known by Mohammed.
   They mean that Mohammed said he couldn’t read, but didn’t mean that he was illiterate.
   I dismiss the idea that iqra means recite, because simply everyone can recite.
4. If he is illiterate, can he still listen to stories among the Jews or Christians? I don’t know much about Khadijah and her Uncle, but many suspected that her Uncle was a Nestorian Priest.

That’s my thinking. Sorry I don’t bring any verses, because it’s basically logic. I really love us to see by logic, and by imagining what happened during the revelation.

Thanks

Fox

 

[JoelRichardson]

Hope its okay for a filthy kaffir to chime in here.

While I think that there are a few places where this sort of thing is said in the Talmud, he is one example:

“According to whom is what Rabba b. b. Hana said? One soul of an upright is equalized to the whole world–i.e., if one kills an upright, he is considered as if he would slay the whole world.”

sacred-texts.com/jud/t08/t0814.htm

I have to agree with Fox. Why is it hard to accept that Muhammad may very well have known or heard this quote. Perhaps it has a popular one in his day among the Jews of the region. As such, he could have merely been quoting/referencing it?

Blessings,

Joel

 

[Edris]

DeExupery:

Dear Edris,

That makes me think that THERE’S A POSSIBILITY that Mohammed PBUH get an inspiration from the Talmud.

1. If he is illiterate, can he still listen to stories among the Jews or Christians? I don’t know much about Khadijah and her Uncle, but many suspected that her Uncle was a Nestorian Priest.

Fox

Ok, let me get this:

1 Prophet Muhammad copy verses from the Talmud.

2 If he is illiterate, can he still listen to stories among the Jews or Christians? I don’t know much about Khadijah and her Uncle, but many suspected that her Uncle was a Nestorian Priest.

Ok, as for the verse that is copied from the Talmud. You have to excuse my ignorance, since I thought the Talmud is one of the books that are in the Bible. Anyways I did some reading about the Talmud and here’s what I found: 1- there are two Talmuds [Talmud Yerushalmi (Jerusalem Talmud) and Talmud Bavli (Babylonian Talmud)] “2- The Talmud Yerushalami is fragmentary and difficult to read, even for experienced Talmudists. However, the Yerushalmi covers a number of topics specific to the land of Israel which are not covered in the Bavli; The redaction of the Babylonian Talmud is much more careful and precise. However, the gemara only exists for 37 out of the 63 tractates of the Mishna: most laws from the Orders Zeraim (agricultural laws limited to the land of Israel) and Toharot (ritual purity laws related to the Temple and sacrificial system) had little practical relevance and were therefore not included.” en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talmud#Talmud_Yerushalmi_.28Jerusalem_Talmud.29

As I read about the Talmud it was clear to me that even if Muhammad pbuh was a literate man, he couldn’t read the Talmud, unless he was able to read Hebrew too. Because the first Arabic translation of the Talmud was made more than 200 years after the death of Prophet Muhammad pbuh. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saadiah_Gaon

Lets read again what the Qur’an says:

Before we arrive to that verse, these verses are intended to Muslims to learn a lesson of what happened in the Nations before us and To the Jews so that they don’t commit the same mistakes. In these verses Allah (swt) wanted to remind the Jews and the Muslims that they are from the same origin (i.e. Adam pbuh) and they are like brothers; because the Jews where very angry that the final Prophet (i.e Muhammad pbuh) was an Arab and not a Jew. Allah (swt) first narrates the incident that took place between the children of Adam pbuh it starts at verse 27 (chapter 5 verse 27) I’m gonna quote the verses to make it clear:

"And (O Muhammad) recite to them (the Jews) the story of the two sons of Adam [Hâbil (Abel) and Qâbil (Cain)] in truth; when each offered a sacrifice (to Allâh), it was accepted from the one but not from the other The latter said to the former: “I will surely kill you” The former said: “Verily, Allâh accepts only from those who are Al-Muttaqûn (the pious); “If you do stretch your hand against me to kill me, I shall never stretch my hand against you to kill you, for I fear Allâh; the Lord of the 'Alamîn (mankind, jinns, and all that exists)”; “Verily, I intend to let you draw my sin on yourself as well as yours, then you will be one of the dwellers of the Fire, and that is the recompense of the Zâlimûn (wrong¬doers)”; So the Nafs (self) of the other (latter one) encouraged him and made fair¬seeming to him the murder of his brother; he murdered him and became one of the losers; Then Allâh sent a crow who scratched the ground to show him to hide the dead body of his brother He (the murderer) said: “Woe to me! Am I not even able to be as this crow and to hide the dead body of my brother?” Then he became one of those who regretted; Because of that We ordained for the Children of Israel that if anyone killed a person not in retaliation of murder, or (and) to spread mischief in the land - it would be as if he killed all mankind, and if anyone saved a life, it would be as if he saved the life of all mankind And indeed, there came to them Our Messengers with clear proofs, evidences, and signs, even then after that many of them continued to exceed the limits (eg by doing oppression unjustly and exceeding beyond the limits set by Allâh by committing the major sins) in the land!” (Qur’an 5:27-32)

So, to cut long story short, the Qur’an actually confirms that this was written in the Jewish laws that “if anyone killed a person, it’s as if he killed all mankind, and if he saved a life it will be as if he saved the life of all mankind”. Allah (swt) is telling you that because of that “We OrdainED for the Children of Israel….” So Muhammad pbuh didn’t copy anything from anyone. If Muhammad pbuh copied the Qur’an from previous scriptures shouldn’t he try to conceal it, but I said this before the Qur’an gives credit to the previous scriptures. So why do you accuse him of copying.

Cont……

 

[Edris]

Now if he’s illiterate can he still listen to stories from the Jews and Christians?

Yes of course he can, to my knowledge the Prophet pbuh was illiterate but he wasn’t deaf. And let me give you an example:

Volume 6, Book 60, Number 335
Narrated 'Abdullah:
A (Jewish) Rabbi came to Allah’s Apostle and he said, "O Muhammad! We learn that Allah will put all the heavens on one finger, and the earths on one finger, and the trees on one finger, and the water and the dust on one finger, and all the other created beings on one finger. Then He will say, ‘I am the King.’ Thereupon the Prophet smiled so that his pre-molar teeth became visible, and that was the confirmation of the Rabbi. Then Allah’s Apostle recited:

“They made not a just estimate of Allâh such as is due to Him And on the Day of Resurrection the whole of the earth will be grasped by His Hand and the heavens will be rolled up in His Right Hand Glorified is He, and High is He above all that they associate as partners with Him!” (Qur’an 39:67)

This verse was revealed upon the prophet pbuh before the Rabbi came to him.

Trust me if you read the Qur’an you’ll know that there is no way it’s been copied from previous scriptures. Specially that there are many things that are not mentioned in previous scriptures, the details in which Qu’ran and the Hadiths describe the afterlife and the death, is not found in any religion.

As for Khadija’s cousin Waraqa Ebn Nawfal, yes he was a Christian, But the Prophet pbuh met him only once he sat with him for no more than a couple of hours at maximum. It was when the Prophet pbuh received the first revelation of “iqra’”, and went back to home frightened, Khadija (may God bless her) told him my cousin know of such things, so let’s go to him and ask him, so they went to Waraqa, because Angel Gabriel, the first time didn’t tell the prophet pbuh anything that he will be a Prophet, and that Gabriel was an Angel. And this is all the conversation that took place between Muhammad pbuh and Waraqa

Narrated 'Aisha(R): Volume 1, Book 1, Number 3
Khadija then accompanied him to her cousin Waraqa bin Naufal bin Asad bin 'Abdul 'Uzza, who, during the pre-Islamic Period became a Christian and used to write the writing with Hebrew letters. He would write from the Gospel in Hebrew as much as Allah wished him to write. He was an old man and had lost his eyesight. Khadija said to Waraqa, “Listen to the story of your nephew, O my cousin!” Waraqa asked, “O my nephew! What have you seen?” Allah’s Apostle described whatever he had seen. Waraqa said, “This is the same one who keeps the secrets (angel Gabriel) whom Allah had sent to Moses. I wish I were young and could live up to the time when your people would turn you out.” Allah’s Apostle asked, “Will they drive me out?” Waraqa replied in the affirmative and said, “Anyone (man) who came with something similar to what you have brought was treated with hostility; and if I should remain alive till the day when you will be turned out then I would support you strongly.” But after a few days Waraqa died.

Waraqa died just a couple of days after the Prophet pbuh met him, Yet the revelations continued for another 23years, so there is noway that Waraqa could’ve taught the Prophet pbuh all the Qur’an in two or three hours.

Peace

 

[cute2904]

Edris:

Waraqa died just a couple of days after the Prophet pbuh met him, Yet the revelations continued for another 23years, so there is noway that Waraqa could’ve taught the Prophet pbuh all the Qur’an in two or three hours.
Peace

There is no way Mr. Waraqa could have taught the prophet, But there is a way for Muhammad could have learned about Chritian Bible and Jewish Talmud or Misnah Sanhedrin.

And what is this ?:
Quran 25:5
And they say: “Tales of the ancients, which he has caused to be written: and they are dictated before him morning and evening.”

For my fellow Christians read this link :
http://www.answering-islam.org/Silas/borrowing.htm

 

[r.gonzales]

JoelRichardson:

I’m trying to help an Arabic friend locate the portion from Ibn Taimiya’s book which you quoted above in one of your posts. He doesn’t want to read all 200 some on pages to find it. On which page was this portion that you quoted? Again, if your claim is true that Mark Gabriel is off then I should like to correct this.

just wondering what the outcome of this was… what did your arabic friend conclude?

 

[Edris]

cute2904:

There is no way Mr. Waraqa could have taught the prophet, But there is a way for Muhammad could have learned about Chritian Bible and Jewish Talmud or Misnah Sanhedrin.

And what is this ?:
Quran 25:5
And they say: “Tales of the ancients, which he has caused to be written: and they are dictated before him morning and evening.”

For my fellow Christians read this link :
http://www.answering-islam.org/Silas/borrowing.htm

mmm…what about that verse? In that verse Allah (swt) is quoting what the disbelievers are saying about Muhammad pbuh.

"Those who disbelieve say: “This (the Qur’ân) is nothing but a lie that he (Muhammad pbuh) has invented, and others have helped him at it, so that they have produced an unjust wrong (thing) and a lie”; And they say: “Tales of the ancients, which he has written down, and they are dictated to him morning and afternoon”; Say: “It (this Qur’ân) has been sent down by Him (Allâh) (the Real Lord of the heavens and earth) Who knows the secret of the heavens and the earth Truly, He is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful” (Qur’an 25:4-6)

Again, i hate to say it this way, but all the books in the Bible are shame when you compare them to the Qur’an.

The information found in the Qur’an and Hadiths, about previous nations and about the afterlife, far exceeds those found in any other religion.

The narrations in the Bible lack so much. It’s a mix, the word of God is mixed with the words of Prophets with the words of historians, and companions.

There are new laws in the Qur’an that are not found in the previous scriptures.

There are many scientific miracles in the Qur’an that the other scriptures know nothing about.

The Qur’an is in pure Arabic the other Scriptures where in Hebrew and Greek!!

“And indeed We know that they (polytheists and pagans) say: “It is only a human being who teaches him (Muhammad pbuh)” The tongue of the man they refer to is foreign, while this (the Qur’ân) is a clear Arabic tongue” (Qur’an 16:103)

And can’t you percieve this…Allah (swt) narrates the Qur’an Himself!!!

Muhammad pbuh doesn’t say a single word of what is in the Qur’an, Allah swt tells him “Say (O Muhammad)…” . Read the Qur’an and compare it to the Bible and see the difference.

 

[Booklover]

Edris:

mmm…what about that verse? In that verse Allah (swt) is quoting what the disbelievers are saying about Muhammad pbuh.

"Those who disbelieve say: “This (the Qur’ân) is nothing but a lie that he (Muhammad pbuh) has invented, and others have helped him at it, so that they have produced an unjust wrong (thing) and a lie”; And they say: “Tales of the ancients, which he has written down, and they are dictated to him morning and afternoon”; Say: “It (this Qur’ân) has been sent down by Him (Allâh) (the Real Lord of the heavens and earth) Who knows the secret of the heavens and the earth Truly, He is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful” (Qur’an 25:4-6)

So? Mohammed put that in there to protect himself and his lies.

Again, i hate to say it this way, but all the books in the Bible are shame when you compare them to the Qur’an.

That’s your opinion!

The information found in the Qur’an and Hadiths, about previous nations and about the afterlife, far exceeds those found in any other religion.

So what? That proves nothing! Anybody can dream up ideas of the afterlife and claim it as "revelation. Big deal!

There are new laws in the Qur’an that are not found in the previous scriptures.

I’m glad they’re not in our scriptures! I would not want to have to live under 7th century rules!

There are many scientific miracles in the Qur’an that the other scriptures know nothing about.

The Qur’an is in pure Arabic the other Scriptures where in Hebrew and Greek!!

Again, so what! What does that prove? Nothing

“And indeed We know that they (polytheists and pagans) say: “It is only a human being who teaches him (Muhammad pbuh)” The tongue of the man they refer to is foreign, while this (the Qur’ân) is a clear Arabic tongue” (Qur’an 16:103)

And can’t you percieve this…Allah (swt) narrates the Qur’an Himself!!!

No, I can’t perceive it. No, you only know that Mohammed said so. Again, no proof except Mohammed’s own word.

Muhammad pbuh doesn’t say a single word of what is in the Qur’an, Allah swt tells him “Say (O Muhammad)…” . Read the Qur’an and compare it to the Bible and see the difference.

By the way, did you bother to read the link that Cute posted called “Muhammad the Borrower”. Makes a very good read!

Vickie

 

[JoelRichardson]

just wondering what the outcome of this was… what did your arabic friend conclude?

After looking through both the web-site which contained Ibn Taimiyah’s work, he thanked me for sending him to such a radical web-site and for asking him to read such a “fun” book, here were his comments (IT =Ibn Taimiyah):

The first part of the quotation found in Mark Gabriel’s book (“Believers when in a weakened stage in a non-Muslim country should forgive and be patient with people of the book (i.e., Jews and Christians) when they insult Allah and his prophet by any means.”) looks to me as not being the opinion of ibn Taymiyya (IT) , but rather it is found in his book as a quotation of opponents to his view that all insulters of Mohd should be killed.

Let me explain to you the context :

On page 2 , Ibn Taimiyah ( hereforth: IT ) states four points he wants to make in his book. Point 1 is that “every insulter (of Mohamad) should be killed, whether he is a muslim or a kaffir” (disbeliever) .

To support point one, he gives several proofs or answers (to those who might oppose his views) from page 2 to page 106.

On page 100, IT says that some experts in islam cite a counter-example where some Jews insult the prophet, but he does not kill them.

IT replies to this by saying that “this happened in the days when islam was weak , when Allah had warned the muslims that they would hear harmful words from the dhimmis and the polytheists, and commanded them to be patient and pious. Then this was abrogated , when (muslims became) strong, by the order to fight them until they pay the jizya with humiliation, and the humiliated cannot do harmful deeds openly”. (= say insults against M).

Then IT discusses whether this is really an abrogation or not, IT being of the opinion that there was actually no abrogation because the initial order from allah was to forgive until he (allah) came with other orders about giving the edge to islam and fighting for its cause until victory.

Maybe there is something I have missed in the 261 pages of this book ! (though I have checked every occurrence of “ahl al kitab” = people of the book)

I believe that his mistake is that he may have allowed himself to make a (hasty) summary and present it as a direct quote.
BUT, when IT presented the objection “and some people say the order to forgive remains (valid) when it (forgiveness) is needed, because the muslim is too weak to fight, or because he (the muslim) is in a time or a place where he cannot fight”. He did not say what he thought of it, but the impression the reader has is that he agrees with it, but wants to underscore that it does not ruin his theory.

I have sent an e-mail to Dr. Gabriel requesting him to provide a photocopied image of this reference from his original source. I’m expecting his response to take some time. While I do wish to give Mr. Gabriel the benefit of the doubt, I am presently preparing to remove this quote from my book. For pointing this out, I thank you. Truth is truth and certainly it does not need to be embellished to stand on its own. It is also clear that despite the fact that the title was already rather ominous, Dr. Gabriel has indeed embellished a tad in his translation. I have taken many pains to make sure that my work would be respectable, even if entirely diagreeable to Muslims - particularly with regard to the references. I only have a couple of references from Dr. Gabriel in my book and indeed, I may even remove them all. I need to go through and review this. Unfortunely I’m already way past burn-out. In any case, I think that’s a fairly complete and transparent report.

Bless you,

Joel

P.S. Is there any English Fiqh manuel that is favorable to your Salafi perspectives?

 

[DeExupery]

Dear Edris,

Trust me if you read the Qur’an you’ll know that there is no way it’s been copied from previous scriptures. Specially that there are many things that are not mentioned in previous scriptures, the details in which Qu’ran and the Hadiths describe the afterlife and the death, is not found in any religion.

Not really. In Chinese Books and Indian Books, the heaven and hell are described in detail. About the torture, etc. Even more detailed than Quran. But does it means all is true?

Volume 6, Book 60, Number 335

Sorry, I try not to be rude, but this is a narration from Islamic source, and as you know, even in some sahih hadits there are a lot of fabricated stories. We don’t know if this is fabricated or not.

Waraqa died just a couple of days after the Prophet pbuh met him, Yet the revelations continued for another 23years, so there is noway that Waraqa could’ve taught the Prophet pbuh all the Qur’an in two or three hours.

Mohammed PBUH had lived for 40 years before the revelation. He was a trader, communicating with many people. So do you think that he will not be able to hear stories from everywhere? I am not yet fourty, but I know a lot of stories. And I am not a trader myself.
So why dismissing this possibility because of the death of Waraqa?

Again, i hate to say it this way, but all the books in the Bible are shame when you compare them to the Qur’an.

I know this. I read that in Islamic heaven, there will be 72 houris for true believers of Islam and there will be enourmous sensual activities. And there will be river of wine, and so on.
In Bible, as long as I know, we come to heaven to reunite with our Creator, and we live pure as an angel.
Of course it’s very different.

There are new laws in the Qur’an that are not found in the previous scriptures.

Yes, some of the verses like kill the pagans where you find them, etc, are not found in any scriptures

There are many scientific miracles in the Qur’an that the other scriptures know nothing about.

I am interested to know more. How if we make a new thread about this, Edris?

And can’t you percieve this…Allah (swt) narrates the Qur’an Himself!!!

This is what we need to find out.

Take care

Fox

 

[Rachel_Malloy]

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[Edris]

Booklover:

By the way, did you bother to read the link that Cute posted called “Muhammad the Borrower”. Makes a very good read!

Vickie

Booklover, apparently you didn’t read my post regarding the Talmud and about the verse (5:32) that talks about the Children of Israel. So go back and read it.

As for the rest of the comparisons that are made in the article between the Qur’an and Other Christian and Jewish writings, indeed, you can compare and see the difference. The entire article’s claim is that there is an indication that the origin is the same, and this is true, what do you want the Qur’an to be talking about aliens, of course it’s gonna be narrating the stories of the Previous Prophets that are mentioned in the Previous scriptures. But, here’s the point, only an EYEWITNESS of what happened in the past can narrate a single incident that took place hundreds and sometimes thousands of years before Muhammad pbuh, from two angles and without contradiction. The Qur’an is the word of God (Allah swt) Who knows every single detail that happened in the past, and He alone can narrate the story in two ways without contradiction and in each time showing new wisdoms and giving new information. Let’s take the first example mentioned in the article and talk about it:

The incident that took place between Abraham pbuh and his people; Allah (swt) narrates this single incident twice in the Qur’an without contradiction and from different angles, each time giving new info and new wisdoms, there you go:

First time (Qur’an 21:51-70):

"And indeed We bestowed aforetime on Ibrâhim (Abraham) his (portion of) guidance, and We were Well-Acquainted with him; When he said to his father and his people: “What are these images, to which you are devoted?”; They said: “We found our fathers worshipping them”; He said: “Indeed you and your fathers have been in manifest error”; They said: “Have you brought us the truth, or are you one of those who play about?”; He said: "Nay, your Lord is the Lord of the heavens and the earth, Who created them and of that I am one of the witnesses; “And by Allâh, I shall plot a plan (to destroy) your idols after you have gone away and turned your backs”; So he broke them to pieces, (all) except the biggest of them, that they might turn to it; They said: “Who has done this to our âliha (gods)? He must indeed be one of the wrong-doers”; They said: “We heard a young man talking (against) them who is called Ibrâhim (Abraham)”; They said: “Then bring him before the eyes of the people, that they may testify”; They said: “Are you the one who has done this to our gods, O Ibrâhim (Abraham)?”; [Ibrâhim (Abraham)] said: “Nay, this one, the biggest of them (idols) did it Ask them, if they can speak!”; So they turned to themselves and said: “Verily, you are the Zâlimûn (wrong-doers)”; Then they turned to themselves (their first thought and said): “Indeed you [Ibrâhim (Abraham)] know well that these (idols) speak not!”; [Ibrâhim (Abraham)] said: "Do you then worship besides Allâh, things that can neither profit you, nor harm you?; “Fie upon you, and upon that which you worship besides Allâh! Have you then no sense?” They said: “Burn him and help your âliha (gods), if you will be doing”; We (Allâh) said: “O fire! Be you coolness and safety for Ibrâhim (Abraham)!”; And they wanted to harm him, but We made them the worst losers"

Second time (Qur’an 37:87-98)

"And, verily, among those who followed his [Nûh’s (Noah)] way (Islâmic Monotheism) was Ibrâhim (Abraham); When he came to his Lord with a pure heart [attached to Allâh Alone and none else]; When he said to his father and to his people: "What is it that which you worship? "Is it a falsehood âliha (gods) other than Allâh that you seek?; “Then what do you think about the Lord of the 'Alamîn (mankind, jinns, and all that exists)?”; Then he cast a glance at the stars (to deceive them), And he said: “Verily, I am sick (with plague He did this trick to remain in their temple of idols to destroy them and not to accompany them to the pagan’s feast)”; So they turned away from him, and departed (for fear of the disease); Then he turned to their âliha (gods) and said: "Will you not eat (of the offering before you)?; “What is the matter with you that you speak not?”; Then he turned upon them, striking (them) with (his) right hand; Then they (the worshippers of idols) came, towards him, hastening; He said: "Worship you that which you (yourselves) carve?; “While Allâh has created you and what you make!”; They said: “Build for him a building (it is said that the building was like a furnace) and throw him into the blazing fire!”; So they plotted a plot against him, but We made them the lowest"

Cont……

 

[Edris]

Compare the two previous Qur’anic narrations with the quote from the Mishnah Rabbah, Genesis (Noach) (CH 38:11-13) Vol. 1, pp. 310 -311, Soncino Edition, Soncino Press London, Editors Dr H Freedman and Maurice Simon. [28]

**13. AND HARAN DIED IN THE PRESENCE OF HIS FATHER TERAH (XI,28). R Hiyya said: Terah was a manufacturer of idols. He once went away somewhere and left Abraham to sell them in his place. A man came and wished to buy one. ‘How old are you?’ Abraham asked him ‘Fifty years’ was the reply ‘Woe to such a man!’ he exclaimed. ‘You are fifty years old and would worship a day old object!’ At this he became ashamed and departed.

On another occasion a woman came with a plateful of flour and requested him, ‘Take this and offer it to them.’ So he took a stick and broke them and put the stick in the hand of the largest. When his father returned he demanded, ‘What have you done to them?’ ‘I cannot concealed it from you’ he rejoined. “A woman came with a plateful of fine meal and requested me to offer it to them. One claimed ‘I must eat first’ while another claimed ‘I must eat first’. Thereupon the largest arose, took the stick, and broke them.” ‘Why do you make sport of me’ he cried out; ‘have they any knowledge!’ ‘Should not your ears listen to what your mouth is saying’ he retorted. Thereupon he seized him and delivered him to Nimrod.

‘Let us worship fire’ he (Nimrod) proposed. ‘Let us rather worship water’, which extinguishes the fire’ replied he. ‘Then let us worship water!’ ’ Let us rather worship the clouds which bear the water.’ ‘The let us worship the clouds!’ ‘Let us rather worship the winds which disperse the clouds’ ‘Let us worship the wind!’ ‘Let us worship human beings, who withstand the wind’ ‘You are just bandying words’ he exclaimed; 'We will worship naught but fire. Behold, I will cast you into it, and let the God whom you adore come and save you from it.

Now Haran was standing there undecided. If Abram is victorious, (he thought), I will say that I am of Abram’s belief, while if Nimrod is victorious I will say that I am on Nimrod’s side. When Abram descended into the fiery furnace and was saved, he (Nimrod) asked him, ‘of whose belief are you?’ ‘Of Abram’s’ he replied. Thereupon he seized and cast him into the fire; his inwards were scorched and he died in his father’s presence. Hence it is written, AND HARAN DIED IN THE PRESENCE OF ('AL PENE) HIS FATHER TERAH.**

It’s very clear that the Qur’anic narrations has nothing to do with this quote, they are all talking about the same incident, But it’s just ridiculous to claim the first two where copied from the third. On top of all this, we are just comparing the verses, I haven’t got even near the Tafsir of the verses, the details which Prophet Muhammad pbuh, explained these verses are astonishing, explaining how they tied Abraham pbuh on the catapult to throw him in the fire; The conversation that took place between Abraham pbuh and Angel Gabriel just moments before he was thrown, what happened while Abraham pbuh was in the fire, how long did he stay there, what happened after that. All this was narrated in the Hadith.

I read the rest of the article, and all of it is going in the same sense. If this article proved anything it would that the Qur’an is the True Word of God.

Peace

 

[r.gonzales]

JoelRichardson:

P.S. Is there any English Fiqh manuel that is favorable to your Salafi perspectives?

before i reply to what you quoted from your friend, i thought i’d post a reply to your question.

i don’t know of any particular “english fiqh manual” i can point you to as i don’t know what topics you want to read about. personally, i don’t know of any thing translated into english except with regards to specific topics. everything else is in arabic, which is what i normally refer to when reading on islamic fiqh - which is an enormously vast category of islamic knowledge.

 

[Edris]

DeExupery:

Dear Edris,

I know this. I read that in Islamic heaven, there will be 72 houris for true believers of Islam and there will be enourmous sensual activities. And there will be river of wine, and so on.
In Bible, as long as I know, we come to heaven to reunite with our Creator, and we live pure as an angel.
Of course it’s very different.

Yes, some of the verses like kill the pagans where you find them, etc, are not found in any scriptures

I am interested to know more. How if we make a new thread about this, Edris?

This is what we need to find out.

Take care

Fox

“In Bible, as long as I know, we come to heaven to reunite with our Creator, and we live pure as an angel.
Of course it’s very different.”

what about the disbelievers, are they going to hell and live there as angels too?. Or they will reunite with Satan and live as devils.?

Couple of days ago, I had an interesting discussion with some of my Christian friends, i asked them what is the fate of the animals, are they going to heaven or hell, or what will happen to them. And I started hearing many stories like for example, there is a heaven for animals, another said, no there will a heaven for every kind of animal like for example cats will be living together, monkeys together in a heaven just prepared for them. It seemed to me that they had no clue of what’s gonna happen . Of course in Islam we know what their fate will be and trust me it’s not gonna be heaven or hell.

“I am interested to know more. How if we make a new thread about this, Edris?”

This is a very good idea. Inshallah (God willing), today I will open a new thread about the scientific miracles in the Qur’an.

Peace

 

[Booklover]

=Edris
I read the rest of the article, and all of it is going in the same sense. If this article proved anything it would that the Qur’an is the True Word of God.

Peace

You mean the article “Mohammed the Borrower”? That proves nothing of the sort! It shows that his “revelations” could have come from other sources and definitely NOT from God!

 

[manx]

Booklover:

You mean the article “Mohammed the Borrower”? That proves nothing of the sort! It shows that his “revelations” could have come from other sources and definitely NOT from God!

hold on…if Mohammad was unlettered, how can he produce an eloquent book that even his contemporaries were not able to meet the challenge.

 

[Rodrigo_Bivar]

Ummi or Umiyy can mean either unlettered or illiterate. There are many ahadith that clearly state or suggest that Muhammad could read and write, it is clear Muhammad being Ummi means he was ‘unlettered’, not illiterate.

The Quran itself term the Arabs of the time al-Ummiyyiina - this means unlettered as in Verse 62:2, Abdullah Yusuf Ali writes: “The Unlettered: as applied to a people, it refers to the Arabs, in comparison with the People of the Book…”

Here are some of the ahadiths that prove Muhammad was not illiterate:

Sahih al-Bukari
كتاب (The Book of the Virtues of Madinah)

No. 1756 - Narrated 'Ali: We have nothing except the Book of Allah and this written paper from the Prophet (where-in is written Medina is a sanctuary from the 'Air mountain to such and such a place, and whoever innovates in it an heresy or commits a sin, or gives shelter to such an innovator in it will incur the curse of Allah, the angels, and all the people, none of his compulsory or optional good deeds of worship will be accepted. And the asylum (of protection) granted by any Muslim is to be secured (respected) by all the other Muslims; and whoever betrays a Muslim in this respect incurs the curse of Allah, the angels, and all the people, and none of his compulsory or optional good deeds of worship will be accepted, and whoever (freed slave) befriends (take as masters) other than his manumitters without their permission incurs the curse of Allah, the angels, and all the people, and none of his compulsory or optional good deeds of worship will be accepted.

Sahih al-Bukhari

(The Book of Knowledge) No. 65 - Narrated Anas bin Malik: Once the Prophet wrote a letter or had an idea of writing a letter. The Prophet was told that they (rulers) would not read letters unless they were sealed. So the Prophet got a silver ring made with “Muhammad Allah’s Apostle” engraved on it. As if I were just observing its white glitter in the hand of the Prophet

(The Book of Exegesis of the Quraan) No. 4214 - Narrated 'Aisha: When the last Verses of Surat-al-Baqara were revealed, the Prophet read them in the Mosque and prohibited the trade of alcoholic liquors. “If the debtor is in difficulty, grant him time till it is easy for him to repay…” (2.280)

Narrated 'Aisha: When the last Verses of Surat-al-Baqara were revealed, Allah’s Apostle stood up and recited them before us and then prohibited the trade of alcoholic liquors.

(The Book of Exegesis of the Quraan) No. 4455 - Narrated Zaid bin Thabit: When we collected the fragramentary manuscripts of the Qur’an into copies, I missed one of the Verses of Surat al-Ahzab which I used to hear Allah’s Apostle reading. Finally I did not find it with anybody except Khuzaima Al-Ansari, whose witness was considered by Allah’s Apostle equal to the witness of two men. (And that Verse was

‘Among the believers are men who have been true to their covenant with Allah.’

---

To claim the Quran is divine because Muhammad was illiterate is to claim Muhammad was stupid. Even children know how to read and write. The Quraysh may have been 7th century barbarians but that does not mean they were uncultured. Poetry was much admired and highly popular at that stage.

Do the Muslims who claim the Quran is divine because Muhammad was illiterate also concede the Odyssey and the Iliad are divine because Homer was blind (hence was functionally iliterate)?

 

[Rodrigo_Bivar]

Other sahih hadiths that prove Muhammad was literate:

(The Book of Medicine) No. 5374 - Narrated 'Aisha: Allah’s Apostle used to read in his Ruqya, “In the Name of Allah” The earth of our land and the saliva of some of us cure our patient with the permission of our Lord." …

(The Book of Jihaad) No. 2747 -Narrated Anas: When the Prophet intended to write a letter to the ruler of the Byzantines, he was told that those people did not read any letter unless it was stamped with a seal. So, the Prophet got a silver ring-- as if I were just looking at its white glitter on his hand ---- and stamped on it the expression “Muhammad, Apostle of Allah”.

(The Book of Jihaad) No. 2749 -Narrated Abdullah bin Abbas: Allah’s Apostle wrote to Caesar and invited him to Islam and sent him his letter with Dihya Al-Kalbi whom Allah’s Apostle ordered to hand it over to the Governor of Busra who would forward it to Caesar…etc.

(The Book of Military Expeditions) No. 4107 - Narrated Ibn Abbas: Allah’s Apostle sent a letter to Khosrau with Abdullah bin Hudhafa As-Sahmi and told him to hand it over to the governor of Al-Bahrain. The governor of Al-Bahrain handed it over to Khosrau, and when he read the latter, he tore it into pieces. (The sub-narrator added, "I think that Ibn Al-Musaiyab said, 'Allah 's Apostle invoked (Allah) to tear them all totally Khosrau and his companions) into pieces.

Sahih al-Bukari
(The Book of Knowledge) No. 115 - Narrated 'Ubaidullah bin 'Abdullah: Ibn 'Abbas said, “When the ailment of the Prophet became worse, he said, ‘Bring for me (writing) paper and I will write for you a statement after which you will not go astray.’ But 'umar said, ‘The Prophet is seriously ill, and we have got Allah’s Book with us and that is sufficient for us.’ But the companions of the Prophet differed about this and there was a hue and cry. On that the Prophet said to them, 'Go away (and leave me alone). It is not right that you should quarrel in front of me.” Ibn 'Abbas came out saying, "It was most unfortunate (a great disaster) that Allah’s Apostle was prevented from writing that statement for them because of their disagreement and noise. (Note: It is apparent from this Hadith that Ibn 'Abbes had witnessed the event and came out saying this statement. The truth is not so, for Ibn 'Abbas used to say this statement on narrating the Hadith and he had not witnessed the event personally. See Fath Al-Bari Vol. 1, p.220 footnote.) (See Hadith No. 228, Vol. 4).

(The Book of Exegesis of the Quraan) No. 4626 - Narrated Aisha: (truncated)… Khadija then took him (Mohammed) to Waraqa bin Naufil, the son of Khadija’s paternal uncle. Waraqa had been converted to Christianity in the Pre-lslamic Period and used to write Arabic and write of the Gospel in Arabic as much as Allah wished him to write.He was an old man and had lost his eyesight. Khadija said (to Waraqa), “O my cousin! Listen to what your nephew is going to say.” Waraqa said, “O my nephew! What have you seen?” The Prophet then described whatever he had seen. Waraqa said, “This is the same Angel (Gabriel) who was sent to Moses. I wish I were young.” He added some other statement. Allah’s Apostle asked, “Will these people drive me out?” Waraqa said, “Yes, for nobody brought the like of what you have brought, but was treated with hostility. If I were to remain alive till your day (when you start preaching). then I would support you strongly.” But a short while later Waraqa died and the Divine Inspiration was paused (stopped) for a while so that Allah’s Apostle was very much grieved.

Narrated Jabir bin ‘Abdullah: While Allah’s Apostle was talking about the period of pause in revelation. he said in his narration. "Once while I was walking, all of a sudden I heard a voice from the sky. I looked up and saw to my surprise, the same Angel as had visited me in the cave of Hira.’ He was sitting on a chair between the sky and the earth. I got afraid of him and came back home and said, Wrap me! Wrap me!" So they covered him and then Allah revealed:

‘O you, wrapped up! Arise and warn and your Lord magnify, and your garments purify and dessert the idols.’ (74.1-5)

Abu Salama said, “(Rijz) are the idols which the people of the Pre-lslamic period used to worship.” After this the revelation started coming frequently and regularly.