Is smoking marijuana a sin?

[fix]

2291 The use of drugs inflicts very grave damage on human health and life. Their use, except on strictly therapeutic grounds, is a grave offense.

 

[qmvsimp]

fix:

The quote was from the Pope himself, not the Council. Are you arguing he was making a prudential judgment?

No, but I am saying that in that particular quote, we as orthodox Catholics are not morally bound by the statement. Similar to Church pronouncements about Fatima and Lourdes.

The quote from the Cathechism, the Pope’s quote and others are a little confusing. Many times, people use the term “drugs” to mean “illegal drugs,” “addictive drugs,” or “hard drugs.” Many times people say “drug use” when they really mean “drug abuse.”

The Pope was clearly making a distinction between alcohol and drugs, but I think he was referring to hard drugs, not nicotine or caffeine and perhaps not even marijuana.

The Catechism is clearly referring to illegal drugs, not alcohol, etc.

In both of these references, drug addiction is the evil trying to be avoided. I would point out that marijuana addiction amongst marijuana users has the lowest addiction rate among alcohol, nicotine, cocaine and heroin users. Those with marijuana addictions are psycologically addicted, not physically addicted like the others mentioned.

 

[fix]

qmvsimp:

No, but I am saying that in that particular quote, we as orthodox Catholics are not morally bound by the statement. Similar to Church pronouncements about Fatima and Lourdes.

The quote from the Cathechism, the Pope’s quote and others are a little confusing. Many times, people use the term “drugs” to mean “illegal drugs,” “addictive drugs,” or “hard drugs.” Many times people say “drug use” when they really mean “drug abuse.”

The Pope was clearly making a distinction between alcohol and drugs, but I think he was referring to hard drugs, not nicotine or caffeine and perhaps not even marijuana.

The Catechism is clearly referring to illegal drugs, not alcohol, etc.

In both of these references, drug addiction is the evil trying to be avoided. I would point out that marijuana addiction amongst marijuana users has the lowest addiction rate among alcohol, nicotine, cocaine and heroin users. Those with marijuana addictions are psycologically addicted, not physically addicted like the others mentioned.

Actually, I think he was referring to MJ. Do you know of any material from the Vatican that in anyway would classify MJ as equal to coffee or the like ? It really is a stretch for anyone to think the Church approves of MJ use.

In fact, any orthodox priest will tell you it is a sin to use it.

 

[qmvsimp]

fix:

Actually, I think he was referring to MJ. Do you know of any material from the Vatican that in anyway would classify MJ as equal to coffee or the like ? It really is a stretch for anyone to think the Church approves of MJ use.

In fact, any orthodox priest will tell you it is a sin to use it.

You’re right on this. No one would equate MJ with coffee.

I was making a point that when “drugs” are condemned, it is not all drugs in all situations that are being condemned.

I don’t think the Church approves of any drug use, except in medical situations. The Church doesn’t approve nicotine use, they just tolerate it.

The sinfulness of drugs, I think, comes from the situation and reasons for using it, not the drug itself. As I said above, I don’t see how all marijuana use in all non-medical situations is a sin.

 

[fix]

qmvsimp:

I was making a point that when “drugs” are condemned, it is not all drugs in all situations that are being condemned.

I think they are condemed, unless for a legitimate medical use. Do you have differing proof? What other use would they have aside for medical reasons? The idea of getting high is condemed. Do folks smoke pot to alter their mood or for other reasons?

I don’t think the Church approves of any drug use, except in medical situations. The Church doesn’t approve nicotine use, they just tolerate it.

Has the Church declared nicotine use sinful? It seems to have declared MJ use sinful.

The sinfulness of drugs, I think, comes from the situation and reasons for using it, not the drug itself. As I said above, I don’t see how all marijuana use in all non-medical situations is a sin.

You have this one correct, except it seems the Church has said all drug use is sinful, unless for medical purposes. Drugs meaning mind altering ones. I do not know anyone who would say moderate use of caffeine or tobbaco is mind altering in the same way MJ is altering.

 

[fix]

qmvsimp:

The quote from the Cathechism, the Pope’s quote and others are a little confusing. Many times, people use the term “drugs” to mean “illegal drugs,” “addictive drugs,” or “hard drugs.” Many times people say “drug use” when they really mean “drug abuse.”

The CCC quote does not say drug abuse. It says drugs. Except for medical uses, they ought not be used. The CCC quote fits in nicely with JPIIs quote. Wine is licit, in moderation, other mind altering drugs are illcit, except for medicinal use. That is what I read.

 

[qmvsimp]

fix:

I think they are condemed, unless for a legitimate medical use. Do you have differing proof?

Yes. I think you and I would agree that although the quote is “drugs,” alcohol, nicotine and caffeine are not included even though they are drugs. I was pointing out that when people say “drugs” they virtually never mean all drugs at all times.

What other use would they have aside for medical reasons?

Relaxing after a hard week’s work. Similar to drinking three beers Friday after work. To me, they are either both sins or neither is. I believe that neither is.

The idea of getting high is condemed.

I agree.

Do folks smoke pot to alter their mood or for other reasons?

Yes. To relax.

Has the Church declared nicotine use sinful? It seems to have declared MJ use sinful.

No, but only if you presume that all the Church pronouncements where “drugs” are mentioned, exclude nicotine. Personally, I think nicotine and caffeine can be sinful if used improperly. My point here is that there are always exceptions to the sinful nature of drug use. Some drug use is always sinful, some drug use is only sinful based on the circumstance and instance of use, like drinking a glass of wine with a meal or a cup of coffee in the morning. I just believe MJ has the ability to fall into the same category, even if the circumstances for sinful use are greater than either alcohol or caffeine.

You have this one correct, except it seems the Church has said all drug use is sinful, unless for medical purposes. Drugs meaning mind altering ones. I do not know anyone who would say moderate use of caffeine or tobbaco is mind altering in the same way MJ is altering.

The Church has said that all drug use is sinful only if you infer “illegal” or “addictive” in front of drug use. Caffeine and tobacco are much more addictive than MJ due to the physical addictive properties of those drugs. Most users have some form of addiction and I would say their continued use by those addicted to them is sinful.

 

[fix]

The Church has said that all drug use is sinful only if you infer “illegal” or “addictive” in front of drug use. Caffeine and tobacco are much more addictive than MJ due to the physical addictive properties of those drugs. Most users have some form of addiction and I would say their continued use by those addicted to them is sinful.

2291 The use of drugs inflicts very grave damage on human health and life. Their use, except on strictly therapeutic grounds, is a grave offense.

That speaks for itself.

Addiction is not the sole concern. Mind altering is also important. MJ very much can impair judgment. Does drinking coffee impair judgment?

I have not read that caffeine is sinful if used in moderation. With more scientific info coming out about the affects of chronic tobacco use that may be sinful.

In any event, you have not proven that the Church allows any use of drugs like MJ that can alter judgment or diminish the ability to reason morally. The statements I have posted show that the Church is against any drug use not intended for medicinal purposes.

I have no proof the Church intends to say tobacco or caffeine are included in the prohibition.

 

[qmvsimp]

2291 The use of drugs inflicts very grave damage on human health and life. Their use, except on strictly therapeutic grounds, is a grave offense.

That speaks for itself.

Addiction is not the sole concern. Mind altering is also important. MJ very much can impair judgment. Does drinking coffee impair judgment?

I have not read that caffeine is sinful if used in moderation. With more scientific info coming out about the affects of chronic tobacco use that may be sinful.

In any event, you have not proven that the Church allows any use of drugs like MJ that can alter judgment or diminish the ability to reason morally. The statements I have posted show that the Church is against any drug use not intended for medicinal purposes.

I have no proof the Church intends to say tobacco or caffeine are included in the prohibition.

The quote does speak for itself. Since some drugs in moderation do not “inflict very grave damage on human health and life” we can infer that drugs that do not inflict grave damage are excluded if used in moderation. I think alcohol, caffeine, nicotine and MJ are excluded under the “grave damage” definition.

You’re right about two issues: addiction and mind altering. I think they’re both sinful. On the mind altering point, there is a very grey line where if you cross it, you’ve crossed over into sin. Clearly there are levels of alcohol on both sides of the line. I think it’s a mistake to claim all MJ use is on the sinful side of the line.

Moderation of any so-called “soft drug” is not sinful. But “needing” caffeine or nicotine is a sin in my opinion.

I don’t have any direct proof that MJ used in certain non-medical situations is not sinful, just like you don’t have direct proof that caffeine and nicotine are excluded in the prohibition. Both of us are making reasonable inferences based on the quote from the catechism.

 

[wcknight]

Everything in moderation including moderation.

Some folks say MJ is not addictive, some say it is… IF it impairs your ability to think or function clearly I think that would be a sin.

If one drinks one drink or takes a cup of coffee and it does not affect their ability to function normally then I think there is no sin.

If a small amount of MJ impairs your ability to drive and you go out and dirve and get into an accident then I think you have committed a serious sin, just as if someone drinks and drives while under the influence.

The problem with MJ and alcohol is that it is much more potent than say a cup of coffee. Plus there is the possibility of becoming addicted to such things.

Humans are such creatures of habit that just about anything can be a habit and eventually an addiction. I find it’s much easier not to start any sort of addiction than try to break out of it later.

I am much too easily tempted and I know I can easily give into vices, so I avoid them from the beginning. Don’t put yourself into a position to fail and you will not fail. “Avoid the near occasion” to sin and you will not sin. There enough temptations in life already, why put any more tempations in the way if you can avoid it.

 

[AlanFromWichita]

fix:

I think they are condemed, unless for a legitimate medical use. Do you have differing proof? What other use would they have aside for medical reasons? The idea of getting high is condemed. Do folks smoke pot to alter their mood or for other reasons?

They smoke pot, typically, to alter their mood.

That doesn’t really pin it down, though, because this is the same reason many people have a cigarette, a cup of coffee, or take an aspirin. On a prescription basis, it certainly is the reason anybody takes antidepressants.

What is the moral difference between “getting high” and “taking something to ease the pain,” whether that pain be physical, mental, or emotional?

Has the Church declared nicotine use sinful? It seems to have declared MJ use sinful.

You have this one correct, except it seems the Church has said all drug use is sinful, unless for medical purposes. Drugs meaning mind altering ones. I do not know anyone who would say moderate use of caffeine or tobbaco is mind altering in the same way MJ is altering.

I take Zoloft and Lexapro ostensibly to alter my moods, and that is in itself a medical purpose. I take Lithium Carbonate ostensibly to stabilize my mood swings, which is also a medical purpose. Some people think “medical purpose” and “mind-altering” is mutually exclusive, but this is absurd. Some are taken with a prescription.

Let’s go backwards in technology a bit. In an old western movie-like scenario, a man is shot and is in pain. Is it wrong to give the dying man a drink of whiskey? What if it was child under the drinking age? It is an act of mercy, or is it a sin?

The fact of the matter is, ever since that propaganda film Reefer Madness came out in about 1938, people have had an emotional objection to MJ that they can’t really explain or justify, so they construct artificial distinctions between it and things they are not so biased against.

Has everybody here seen “Reefer Madness?” If not, you might see if your library has it. Many of the “drug war” players got their so-called “education” from this film. When you see what garbage an entire generation of people have been fed, then some of the anti-MJ hysteria starts to make more sense.

Once again, I am not promoting MJ or, where it is illegal, saying it’s OK to break the law. What I am saying is that its intrinsic sinfulness is not any different from other “acceptable” substances which alter the mind.

Alan

 

[fix]

AlanFromWichita:

They smoke pot, typically, to alter their mood.

I guess we need to be more specific. Mood altering as a way to diminish clear thinking and free will.

What is the moral difference between “getting high” and “taking something to ease the pain,” whether that pain be physical, mental, or emotional?

Alleviating pain, by a moral means, is legitimate. Intentionally diminishing one’s ability to reason is not licit. That is why getting a little “tipsy” may be venial, but intentionally getting drunk is mortal.

I take Zoloft and Lexapro ostensibly to alter my moods, and that is in itself a medical purpose. I take Lithium Carbonate ostensibly to stabilize my mood swings, which is also a medical purpose. Some people think “medical purpose” and “mind-altering” is mutually exclusive, but this is absurd. Some are taken with a prescription.

You are taking medications to restore you to health. That is the purpose of medicine. What is the purpose, and intention, of smoking pot? I guess if there is some way for science to prove that pot can serve the same means as SSRIs or psychoactive drugs than you may have a good point.

Let’s go backwards in technology a bit. In an old western movie-like scenario, a man is shot and is in pain. Is it wrong to give the dying man a drink of whiskey? What if it was child under the drinking age? It is an act of mercy, or is it a sin?

Is the alcohol acting as a drug to alleviate pain or restore the body to health?

The fact of the matter is, ever since that propaganda film Reefer Madness came out in about 1938, people have had an emotional objection to MJ that they can’t really explain or justify, so they construct artificial distinctions between it and things they are not so biased against.

Drug abuse has been going on since the start of time. Folks have always wanted to find a way to do what they should not due.

Has everybody here seen “Reefer Madness?” If not, you might see if your library has it. Many of the “drug war” players got their so-called “education” from this film. When you see what garbage an entire generation of people have been fed, then some of the anti-MJ hysteria starts to make more sense.

I am always amazed at the MJ lobby and its supporters. It is almost that MJ is a god to many. What is so attractive about MJ that makes so many want to glorify it? I am not saying you are one, but I see so many who really value MJ to a degree that seems pathological.

Once again, I am not promoting MJ or, where it is illegal, saying it’s OK to break the law. What I am saying is that its intrinsic sinfulness is not any different from other “acceptable” substances which alter the mind.Alan

I do not think the Church said it is intrinsically sinful. The use of it to get high is what is sinful.

 

[qmvsimp]

fix:

You are taking medications to restore you to health. That is the purpose of medicine. What is the purpose, and intention, of smoking pot? I guess if there is some way for science to prove that pot can serve the same means as SSRIs or psychoactive drugs than you may have a good point.

Depending on the user, the purpose could be to get high as a kite which is sinful, or to relax, which is not.

fix:

Drug abuse has been going on since the start of time. Folks have always wanted to find a way to do what they should not due.

Prohibiting people from doing moral things because someone doesn’t like it or thinks it’s immoral has been going on since the start of time. Folks always find a way to justify what they think someone should or shouldn’t do.

fix:

I am always amazed at the MJ lobby and its supporters. It is almost that MJ is a god to many. What is so attractive about MJ that makes so many want to glorify it? I am not saying you are one, but I see so many who really value MJ to a degree that seems pathological.

The same can be said of the anti-MJ lobby and its supporters. They make MJ out to be the devil. Just as bad as cocaine and heroin. It’s not. And certainly arguing that MJ in certain non-medical situations is not a sin, is not glorifying it. I’m not saying you’re accusing me (or us) of that.

fix:

I do not think the Church said it is intrinsically sinful. The use of it to get high is what is sinful.

Now we completely agree. This is exactly what I was trying to get out of the discussion. Thanks.

 

[fix]

qmvsimp:

Depending on the user, the purpose could be to get high as a kite which is sinful, or to relax, which is not.

Please define relax.

Prohibiting people from doing moral things because someone doesn’t like it or thinks it’s immoral has been going on since the start of time. Folks always find a way to justify what they think someone should or shouldn’t do.

The Church has the authority to define sin. She can bind and loose.

The same can be said of the anti-MJ lobby and its supporters. They make MJ out to be the devil. Just as bad as cocaine and heroin. It’s not. And certainly arguing that MJ in certain non-medical situations is not a sin, is not glorifying it. I’m not saying you’re accusing me (or us) of that.

I await a definitive judgement from the church.

Now we completely agree. This is exactly what I was trying to get out of the discussion. Thanks.

If it can be used for medical reasons, it can’t be intrinsically evil. It may be possible to be intrinsically evil if used for any non medical purposes, but I am not arguing that.

The same reasoning applies to contraception. It is intrinsically wrong when used in the conjugal act, meaning it may never be done for any reason. It is not evil if used after a rape.

 

[AlanFromWichita]

fix:

I guess we need to be more specific. Mood altering as a way to diminish clear thinking and free will.

OK, I can agree to that for starters. I’ll give it some thought and maybe post on it later.

Alleviating pain, by a moral means, is legitimate. Intentionally diminishing one’s ability to reason is not licit. That is why getting a little “tipsy” may be venial, but intentionally getting drunk is mortal.

I think the intended effects of analgesics and anesthetics function precisely by altering the brain’s perception of reality, by either making chemical influences on the central nervous system itself or by interfering with the body’s natural sensory organs.

These chemicals come with warnings that they may cause drowsiness. Some cause confusion or unconsciousness. These are all effects. Natural law does not distinguish between “effects” and “side effects” except that we boldly advertise some effects and list others in fine print. I chuckle when I hear the litany of horrendous possible effects they sometimes rattle off in drug commercials.

You are taking medications to restore you to health. That is the purpose of medicine. What is the purpose, and intention, of smoking pot? I guess if there is some way for science to prove that pot can serve the same means as SSRIs or psychoactive drugs than you may have a good point.

Some think it feels good. That brings a form of pleasure without violating sexual chastity boundaries. Pleasure-seeking is a part of the flesh by design. Of course, pot smoking likely doesn’t reduce chastity violations and in fact may often come as a package. But that’s the draw, pleasure.

The other side is pain avoidance. Same argument in reverse.

Is the alcohol acting as a drug to alleviate pain or restore the body to health?

To alleviate pain would be my first guess. It may help a person get some rest, which could contribute to bodily restoration. It can act as an antiseptic (Oops-when I first posted I mistyped “anesthetic” by mistake), but that’s a separate discussion.

Drug abuse has been going on since the start of time. Folks have always wanted to find a way to do what they should not due.

Ever since Adam, I figure.

I am always amazed at the MJ lobby and its supporters. It is almost that MJ is a god to many. What is so attractive about MJ that makes so many want to glorify it? I am not saying you are one, but I see so many who really value MJ to a degree that seems pathological.

I agree that many crave MJ and basically have no other life, and are not in any trajectory for improvement. I was on a job interview in Pittsburgh about 25 years ago and went to a Dead concert (wearing a suit and London Fog overcoat ) I’d never heard the Dead’s music, but some kids I met in the balcony did nothing with their entire lives except work enough to pool their money and travel by station wagon to their next Dead concert.

I’d put that into the “get a life” category.

Anyway I think that it is a security blanket to some, that The Man insists on taking away. It’s a tug-of-war for comfort – like taking away a rich person’s hot tub. The poor people never save enough for the hot tub because they spend all their money on drugs. (just kidding – yes, I’m officially “poor” right now)

I do not think the Church said it is intrinsically sinful. The use of it to get high is what is sinful.

I’m just taking the word of the posters here. I don’t actually need to know what the Church says about pot, so this is academic to me. I like challenging the “dominant” arguments to see how deep they can go.

Alan

 

[fix]

I think the intended effects of analgesics and anesthetics function precisely by altering the brain’s perception of reality, by either making chemical influences on the central nervous system itself or by interfering with the body’s natural sensory organs.

These chemicals come with warnings that they may cause drowsiness. Some cause confusion or unconsciousness. These are all effects. Natural law does not distinguish between “effects” and “side effects” except that we boldly advertise some effects and list others in fine print. I chuckle when I hear the litany of horrendous possible effects they sometimes rattle off in drug commercials.

The intention is to restore normal health and/or alleviate pain. The intention is not to take an otherwise healthy person and diminish reasoning for pleasure sake.

 

[John_Henry]

2291 The use of drugs inflicts very grave damage on human health and life. Their use, except on strictly therapeutic grounds, is a grave offense. Clandestine production of and trafficking in drugs are scandalous practices. They constitute direct co-operation in evil, since they encourage people to practices gravely contrary to the moral law.

The above is binding on Catholics. All attempts at dissent aside. Obviously, this applies to more than just marijuana, but it also clearly applies to marijuana. What drugs are we hearing about most these days, in terms of their therapeutic use? Marijuana. Maybe morphine. Those who try to blur the discussion by making tobacco and alcohol part of the discussion are referred to the previous paragraph:

[2290](javascriptpenWindow(‘cr/2290.htm’) The virtue of temperance disposes us to avoid every kind of excess: the abuse of food, alcohol, tobacco, or medicine. Those incur grave guilt who, by drunkenness or a love of speed, endanger their own and others’ safety on the road, at sea, or in the air.

The Church calls us to temperance (not abstinence) for alcohol and tobacco. Use of drugs, however, is grave.

 

[fix]

2291 The use of drugs inflicts very grave damage on human health and life. Their use, except on strictly therapeutic grounds, is a grave offense. Clandestine production of and trafficking in drugs are scandalous practices. They constitute direct co-operation in evil, since they encourage people to practices gravely contrary to the moral law.

The above is binding on Catholics. All attempts at dissent aside. Obviously, this applies to more than just marijuana, but it also clearly applies to marijuana. What drugs are we hearing about most these days, in terms of their therapeutic use? Marijuana. Maybe morphine. Those who try to blur the discussion by making tobacco and alcohol part of the discussion are referred to the previous paragraph:

2290 The virtue of temperance disposes us to avoid every kind of excess: the abuse of food, alcohol, tobacco, or medicine. Those incur grave guilt who, by drunkenness or a love of speed, endanger their own and others’ safety on the road, at sea, or in the air.

The Church calls us to temperance (not abstinence) for alcohol and tobacco. Use of drugs, however, is grave.

Thank you. This culture really idolizes MJ.

 

[qmvsimp]

Relax:To make less tense or rigid. To relieve from nervous tension.

Diminish reasoning for pleasure sake. This is not a good criteria for sinful behavior. Not getting enough sleep and trying to do too many things at once also diminish reasoning.

The question is are you relaxing or are you intoxicated?

The quote from the catechism is perfect. Every food or drug can be abused to the point of sin. The claim I’m making is that all non-medical use of MJ is not sinful.

 

[fix]

qmvsimp:

Relax:To make less tense or rigid. To relieve from nervous tension.

Diminish reasoning for pleasure sake. This is not a good criteria for sinful behavior. Not getting enough sleep and trying to do too many things at once also diminish reasoning.

The question is are you relaxing or are you intoxicated?

The quote from the catechism is perfect. Every food or drug can be abused to the point of sin. The claim I’m making is that all non-medical use of MJ is not sinful.

I believe MJ is included in the prohibition by the Church.

Not getting enough sleep is not usually intentional, smoking pot is intentional. Intentionally diminishing your ability to make moral choices is a sin.