Is sociopathy evil or a mental disorder? Can a sociopath be healed?

[contramundum7]

contramundum7:
I read in one post that sociopathy is - or probably is - a mental illness. I think it is dangerous to call certain tendencies toward evil “mental illness”. A child under 7 may not have the ability to truly know right from wrong, but all, or most, others do. Mental illness, i feel, can interfere with a person’s… well, it can interfere with anything… but it can’t FORCE a person to do evil. The scriptures are very clear that those who choose evil and refuse to repent will end up in Hell. I think psychology often tends to complicate matters and make excuses for people’s behavior where God, apparently, does not. Of course, God is the ultimate judge & we never know how He sees things… All we have to go by is His Word, as expressed in Scripture and the Church…(plus what the Holy Spirit reveals to us, but who can prove such things absolutely?). It seems that no one wants to believe in eternal Hell anymore - its supposedly “not loving” to believe in such a horrible place. But in saying that, we are saying, in effect, that the Word (& justice) of God is un-loving. It then follows that God is not truly loving or just. Jesus said very clearly that whatever we do to the least of his brethren, we do to Him… and in the end of that passage, He speaks not of just punishment for those who don’t care for his brethren [Purgatory], but ETERNAL punishment… (Hell) (Matthew 25:31-46).
Sometimes we have to choose between psychology and God’s word…

 

[contramundum7]

Leonie wrote:

Is often said: ‘the sins of the fathers are visited on the children’. It is not uncommon to hear a second generation to say their children or even grandchildren have the traites of their parents or grandparents, even when one generation was born after the other had died, so in theory is no direct connection or social influence.

But we can unwittingly pass on familial and sub-cultural traits, often unconciously so that we become our parents and our children become us in terms of personality. We simply pass on to the next generation what we learned from our parents and they to the next generation etc. This is particularly true of problem solving strategies and the consquences of failed strategies.

You would know if someone was possessed. It is nothing like mental illness. It is distinctly sinister. You would feel ill at ease. It would be very strong, negative, over-powering, often aggressive.

If you are unsure whether it is possession or mental illness then it is mental illness.

I am not sure i agree. But even if you are correct, even if actual possession is not the case w/ any given sociopathic person, even if we could in truth call it a mental illness, that doesn’t mean the person is not in a state of mortal sin & would go straight to Hell if he or she were to die unrepentant… So, in a way, its not all that relevent whether a sociopath is possessed or not. What disturbs me is that so many people these days make excuses for evil behavior. If a person believes that eternal Hell is not something a loving God would allow, he/she may as well throw out the entire Bible and all that the Church teaches… Some seem to want to hang on to the parts of the Word & Church teachings that sound good and throw away the rest. Yet logic would ditate that you either accept the whole thing or you reject the whole thing… true??

 

[Sixtus]

You can’t trust anything she says–she will even lie about things that don’t matter like

Some people lie to get out of trouble but people who do it when there is no need have one of two problems, they are either very depressed about their life and wish to escape from it. Lies enable fantacies to be lived out.

Or they are living a new identity whereby they are dependent on telling lies to substantiate that reality such as ‘victim’ personalities. Such a person is usually a survivor of abuse. The abuse is internalised so that when it stops they fabricate future abuse as if that is what they expect to happen to them.

Persistent lying can be a call for help or a call to be loved. Very lonely people can suddenly become the centre of attention through their lies. By showing such a person that they are loved for who they are, not what they are, often leads to a reduction in fib- telling behaviour.

Because someone is a willful and persistent liar, does not mean they are sociopaths. Though they may have an underlying pathological condition which is manifested in lying behaviour.

There are many reasons why someone tells lies.

 

[Sixtus]

Is often said: ‘the sins of the fathers are visited on the children’. It is not uncommon to hear a second generation to say their children or even grandchildren have the traites of their parents or grandparents, even when one generation was born after the other had died, so in theory is no direct connection or social influence.

But we can unwittingly pass on familial and sub-cultural traits, often unconciously so that we become our parents and our children become us in terms of personality. We simply pass on to the next generation what we learned from our parents and they to the next generation etc. This is particularly true of problem solving strategies and the consquences of failed strategies.

I am not sure i agree

Well, to disagree is your perogative. But that is a phenomena, which is well known to psychologists.

You would know if someone was possessed. It is nothing like mental illness. It is distinctly sinister. You would feel ill at ease. It would be very strong, negative, over-powering, often aggressive.

If you are unsure whether it is possession or mental illness then it is mental illness.

A person possessed is very distinctive by their aggression and maleviolence. I occasionally see personalities in the criminal justice system and they are people who you do not know if they are possessed but you can almost predict what their personalities, tastes and preferences are. Rarely is one ever wrong.

In my experience certain types of personality which I would argue are possessed, tend for example to have passions for wild dogs, snakes and all manner of reptiles,. I am not saying everyone who likes snakes are possessed, but I have found this to be a consistent theme among people you would not want to associate with or meet in every day life. Such are people who have for example committed such serious crime that you wonder if they are possessed. They are very mocking, aggressive, have an insatiable craving for blood-letting, bizzare obsessions with torture and execution, images of pain and death, and give off horrible repulsive demeanours.

Whenever I meet such a person [which is rare thank God] they nearly always meet the criteria above. I suggest it is possession. But I am not an exorcist so I am unqualified to say

 

[drafdog]

In the current state of psychiatric medicine these personalities cannot be “cured.” Don’t hold your breath waiting for a miraculous cure, either. For your own protection keep this person out of your home. As you have seen, such a disordered personality spreads confusion and havoc in its wake.

In the Father’s Love,
Matthew

 

[Meggie]

Answering an above person’s post…later childhood neglect isn’t where the sociopathy is truly a risk…

Its the neglect and abuse of a child less than three (and prenatally) that can oftent create such sociopathic behavior, apparent at youth, and even in some children as young as six (depending upon personality, genitic disposition, and neglect history) If you’re intrested in that aspect you should look up “Reactive Attachment Disorder” which is one way that early childhood neglect is reacted to. Other types of attachment disoders can occur after age 4 but they are less likely to cause perminant sociopathy and although can be devistating and cause many life problems can be worked through.

And in regards to Generational sin and its affects. It can be broken through prayer, especally when it comes to prayer to free adoptive (or estranged adult) children from the curses brought about to them by their parent’s sin.

 

[leonie]

I’m learning a lot from this thread.

It breaks my heart that people can be so damaged from childhood abuse and neglect.

I don’t see how anyone can counsel or work with these types of people. They are so manipulative.

I imagine in places of war, there are many, many more sociopathic types.

 

[Sixtus]

And in regards to Generational sin and its affects. It can be broken through prayer, especally when it comes to prayer to free adoptive (or estranged adult) children from the curses brought about to them by their parent’s sin.

I am not saying a child carries the sins of the parents, what I am saying is 'the parents provide the envionment in which the children are reared. The child invariably internalises the parents values and responses to such things as problem solving [hence the concept of dysfunctional families].

Such behaviour can be carried forward to a third and even fourth generation so that you hear mother’s saying in criticism of their children that they are just like their grandparents’. What the mother does not realise is they are actually not just like grandparents but parents as well who are carriers and transmitters of traits from grandparents to the child.

Iv’e heard mothers in court say 'my father was like that but I wans’t. She probably was but was unconcious of the fact. The chances are the child learned it from the mother not the grandparent

 

[Sixtus]

It breaks my heart that people can be so damaged from childhood abuse and neglect.

I don’t see how anyone can counsel or work with these types of people. They are so manipulative. .

Leonie, when next you hear about those aweful paedophiles remember the chances are they are adults who as children were sexually abused. Not all abused children grow up to be abusers but a lot of them do.

You are probably aware that boys who witness their fathers committing domestic violence more often than not end up as wife beaters.

Seriously sexually abused children without councilling often internalise what happened to them so that they accept it as ‘normal’. Invariably they either turn to self-harm or become abusers themselves. Though of course some do escape, but rarely without councilling.

Most violent people have learned it from somewhere. The most likely place is in their own homes from their own role models

I imagine in places of war, there are many, many more sociopathic types

Actually in war time, the British Army has turned down potential recruits who have demonstrated a desire to kill. No Army [except for the black and tans] wants killers. Even in war there are strict rules of combat when it is lawful to open fire and when it is not. Soldiers contrary to popular opinion are not free to kill. That would be murder.

But you are right that they do seem to find prominence in dictatorial regimes, often rising to the top of the structure.

 

[Sixtus]

It breaks my heart that people can be so damaged from childhood abuse and neglect.

I don’t see how anyone can counsel or work with these types of people. They are so manipulative. .

Leonie, when next you hear about those aweful paedophiles remember the chances are they are adults who as children were sexually abused. Not all abused children grow up to be abusers but a lot of them do.

You are probably aware that boys who witness their fathers committing domestic violence more often than not end up as wife beaters.

Seriously sexually abused children without councilling often internalise what happened to them so that they accept it as ‘normal’. Invariably they either turn to self-harm or become abusers themselves. Though of course some do escape, but rarely without councilling.

Most violent people have learned it from somewhere. The most likely place is in their own homes from their own role models

Quote:I imagine in places of war, there are many, many more sociopathic types

.

Actually in war time, the British Army has turned down potential recruits who have demonstrated a desire to kill. No Army [except for the black and tans] wants killers. Even in war there are strict rules of combat when it is lawful to open fire and when it is not. Soldiers contrary to popular opinion are not free to kill, to kill outside from the rules of engagement is a crime of murder, in war a War Crime.

But you are right that they do seem to find prominence in dictatorial regimes, often rising to the top of the structure

 

[Catherine_S]

Thanks for the comments so far. It’s so hard to deal with anti-social personality disorders.

I trully hope that this lady I’ve mentioned is not cupable for her actions. But, boy, has she spread havoc!!

If sociopaths have an ill formed conscience which evaluates choices on the basis of effects on self, then their consciences can be reformed.

But, if they are so damaged that they are incapable of forming a conscience, then they wouldn’t be culpable, I would think.

Can someone like this change? From what I’ve observed, people like this seem incapable of change.

If this condition is the result of neglect and abuse, then perhaps their caretakers would be held accountable by God for not only the evil they did but the evil done by their children…

There is a very insightful book regarding evil and healing called People Of The Lie. It was written by Doctor Scott Peck (psychistrist). You might want to take a look at it!
.

 

[contramundum7]

Some people lie to get out of trouble but people who do it when there is no need have one of two problems, they are either very depressed about their life and wish to escape from it. Lies enable fantacies to be lived out.

Or they are living a new identity whereby they are dependent on telling lies to substantiate that reality such as ‘victim’ personalities. Such a person is usually a survivor of abuse. The abuse is internalised so that when it stops they fabricate future abuse as if that is what they expect to happen to them.

Persistent lying can be a call for help or a call to be loved. Very lonely people can suddenly become the centre of attention through their lies. By showing such a person that they are loved for who they are, not what they are, often leads to a reduction in fib- telling behaviour.

Because someone is a willful and persistent liar, does not mean they are sociopaths. Though they may have an underlying pathological condition which is manifested in lying behaviour.

There are many reasons why someone tells lies.

 

[contramundum7]

contramundum7:
i agree with all this. However, lying is still a sin and all people know this. A person, no matter how abused in childhood or whatever, is born with a conscience. It is part of being human to have a conscience, it is what separates us from the animals (along with the capacity to reason).
OK, so sometimes people feel they have to lie in order to “survive” (somehow)… and also, sometimes people lie because - and perhaps are totally correct in doing so - they feel that to tell the truth entails more “wrong” than lying does… But aside from all that, the person who lies 4 no apparent good reason (key word: apparent), well, the Scriptures tell us that liars don’t get into Heaven (Revelation). It is very uncharitable to “love” someone so much that we refrain from telling him/her the truth concerning thier errant behavior. Frankly, sometimes i feel we need to straight-up tell people they could be on their way to Hell. yet no one seems to really believe this is a “loving” approach these days…
Anyway, gotta go…

 

[vern_humphrey]

It’s one thing to debate on a thread like this the causes of sociopathy, and another thing to deal with a sociopath on a face-to-face basis. My advice is, don’t try this at home, kids. Leave it to the professionals.

 

[leonie]

It’s one thing to debate on a thread like this the causes of sociopathy, and another thing to deal with a sociopath on a face-to-face basis. My advice is, don’t try this at home, kids. Leave it to the professionals.

I agree. It’s one of those situations where you have to be prudent. With most people, you give them the benefit of the doubt and always assume the best motives. My experience with this person is that it’s better to assume that she is lying.

I wonder how confessors deal with sociopaths? Would they even be able to examine their consciences? Do the lies they tell become their reality?

 

[contramundum7]

It’s one thing to debate on a thread like this the causes of sociopathy, and another thing to deal with a sociopath on a face-to-face basis. My advice is, don’t try this at home, kids. Leave it to the professionals.

The only problem is, sometimes people don’t access to “professionals” at times when they most need it, i.e. when they are in a situation where they must make some kind of decision as to how to deal with this kind of person (the sociopath or seeming sociopath…). In that kind of situation, i guess the best advice would be the advice i heard from my priest in confession recently. He said something i had told myself years ago but had forgotten somehow & needed 2b reminded again: “… [when confused…] just walk in the Spirit.” If you are walking in the Spirit of Christ, the Holy Spirit, you are far less likely to make a terrible mistake. And with these kinds of people, there is always such a good chance of that… I ought to know… I have more than one in my life…

 

[leonie]

The only problem is, sometimes people don’t access to “professionals” at times when they most need it, i.e. when they are in a situation where they must make some kind of decision as to how to deal with this kind of person (the sociopath or seeming sociopath…). In that kind of situation, i guess the best advice would be the advice i heard from my priest in confession recently. He said something i had told myself years ago but had forgotten somehow & needed 2b reminded again: “… [when confused…] just walk in the Spirit.” If you are walking in the Spirit of Christ, the Holy Spirit, you are far less likely to make a terrible mistake. And with these kinds of people, there is always such a good chance of that… I ought to know… I have more than one in my life…

That is very good advice! It seems like it always comes back to prayer.

 

[contramundum7]

I agree. It’s one of those situations where you have to be prudent. With most people, you give them the benefit of the doubt and always assume the best motives. My experience with this person is that it’s better to assume that she is lying.

I wonder how confessors deal with sociopaths? Would they even be able to examine their consciences? Do the lies they tell become their reality?

Most priests, especially those in a strong state of grace, are very perceptiv; i feel they can (more or less) tell when someone is lying. For one thing, if the person talks long enough, he/she will probably contradict him/herself… I believe the priest, in Confession and elsewhere, has a charism that tells him what needs to be said and what needs to be left unsaid. Of course, i realize they are human… which is why Jesus said to call no man your father, meaning call no one your “superior”. Priests can give “bad” advice once in awhile… I feel i have been given bad advice… on rare occassions. But anyway… even when i get bad advice… I realize that i can accept most (if not all???) of what a priest says. Actually, it could even be that it is too soon for me to tell whether or not i was given “bad” or imperfect advice… Time will tell… Yet even if it turns out I WAS given bad advice, it is still worth listening to and “pondering”… Whether i take the advice in the end is my choice (I realize that only God knows more about my life than i do).

 

[contramundum7]

That is very good advice! It seems like it always comes back to prayer.

Right - Prayer and trust in God - as opposed to trust in self… The self is so weak, so human, so prone to error… Sometimes we humans have more than a little pride (and worse, sometimes we don’t even see it - until its too late); we begin to think, “Well, i have been Catholic for x amout of time and I know how to do this, that or the other thing, i know how to fight Satan, etc., so i don’t really need to pray about every little thing as much as i used to…” But, of course, pride comes b4 a fall…

Actually, come to think of it, maybe that kind of thinking is not so much human pride but the devil speaking to us… But in any case, this morning, at Mass, when the priest asked “For what else shall we pray?” I couldn’t think of much, so i just said to myself, “I pray that… uh, uh… that Your will be done in my life and the lives of all my loved ones…” A great prayer. The only problem was: For some reason, i didn’t 100% want to pray it… I started feeling very uncomfortable and i wondered why… The only thing i could come up with was, well, i guess maybe it was this (?): that I already felt God’s will was being done in those situations… but after i forced the prayer to the surface of my heart (as it were), i realized that wherever and whenever human beings are involved, you can better believe that the will of God is NOT being done - @ least not 100%, probably not even 80% of the time… Far from it, usually… and most revealing of all, i realized that maybe way deep down inside - where i hadn’t realized it till then (& hate to admit now) - well, maybe i wasn’t so sure i really, truly wanted God’s will to be done. I mean, what if He wanted this or wanted that…??
Hey - I’m human. I kind of like my OWN will to be done…
Sometimes It is such a pathetic thing to be human. Anyway, have a good week.

 

[Sixtus]

A person, no matter how abused in childhood or whatever, is born with a conscience.

Contramundam

I agree with a lot of what you say, but for a lot of people, their conscience is not value free to make rational objective decisions.

Someone who has internalised a problem-solving strategy of ‘lying to get out of trouble’, have internalised this so that they instrinctively lie without giving any concious thought to what they are doing. We all have internalised behaviours which are so automatic we just do them without any concious thought.

If a behaviour is committed without appeal to consious thought then it cannot be subject to conscience, least not in the same way as someone who is taught and has internalised the rule that ‘to lie is wrong’.

It is true we all have a conscience but for some it is value-free but for others constrained and conditioned. I have no doubt God will judge not only the gravity of offence but also the degree of culpability