Is Sola Scriptura Biblical? You Betcha!

[paul_c]

That is why it is so important to stay with whats in Gods word. Before we had the new testament given to us, it was all taught by oral instruction of what they saw and what was revealed to them by God. I do not dispute that fact. They also quoted from the old testament. But they instructed the people to Repent and turn to the Gospel of Jesus Christ. They were commissioned to preach the Gospel and that is what they did. Now years later, time had passed and God wanted his words preserved

So what did Jesus actually do? Did he write a book? No, he didn’t. He appointed trusted men to pass on his word and they did the same up until the present time. Some of those Apostolic men wrote letters and books and they became scripture. Others in later generations also wrote down what they learned. These are the writings of the Early Church Fathers. You can trace Catholic Doctrine through them all the way back to the Apostles and see the consistency in teaching and Church administration.

We as his Church (the called out ones) can read and look into all these glorious truths of what God is revealing to us today in our Bible. If their is some doctrine that contradicts the word of God (his Holy Scriptures), we should have discernment as to what is a contrary to Gods Word.

Gerard, There is no Catholic Doctrine that is contradicted by scripture. If you believe it is, its simply reflects your misinterpretation of what scripture really means. We can help you with that if you want to be specific. When you deviate from Catholic Teaching, this is a sure sign that you are misintepreting scripture. After all, scripture was written by Catholics for Catholics. To believe that you understand them better than the people who wrote them is simply foolish.

The CC wants to hold fast to these traditions because they can not defend their doctrines by using Gods Word. I can defend Salvation by using Scripture alone. I can tell you what the Bible teaches about Salvation. I can read Acts and give you a broad summary concerning Salvation. If you can not defend your doctrine by using Gods Word alone, then you need to be as the noble Bereans were in Acts 17 and search the Scriptures to see if what Paul was saying is true.

Gerard, do you understand what the Catholic Church teaches about salvation? Assuming not from what you have written, let me give you a synopsis.

A person enters the state of Grace through baptism. This grace is freely given to those who ask to become part of the church through their faith (or through their guardians faith). In doing so, you enter into a covenent relationship, where God forgives all your prior sins and you are born again. If you stay in the state of Grace until death, you will go to heaven. You do this by loving God and neighbor and avoiding mortal sin. Grace (the gift of God’s life within you) is enhanced by partaking of the sacraments particularly the eucharist and by works of love and devotion (including prayer and the reading of scripture), making it increasingly easy to avoid sin. If you do, however, fall from grace through sin, you can be reconciled to God through the sacrament of reconciliation (confession to a priest, contrition, penance and absolution).

All of this is supported by Scripture. The very first converts at Pentacost (Acts 2) were told to be baptized for the forgiveness of sins and Peter points out that baptism saves you now in 1Peter3:21. In John 3, Jesus explains that to get to heaven, you must be born of water and spirit. In John 6, Jesus explains that you must eat his bod and drink his blood or else you will have no life within you. In Matthew 19: 16-19, Jesus further explains that you must follow the commandments to enter eternal life and later he explains that those commandments can be summed up as loving God and your neighbor. In Romans 2: 5-10, Paul explains that those that do good works will go to Heaven and those that do evil will be condemned to Hell. In Matthew 7:21-23, Jesus tells us that only those that do the will of the Father will gain eternal life .(mortal sin is acting contrary to the will of the Father).Throughout the Old and new testaments, we are told to live the Christian life of Love, perhaps best summed up in 1Corinthians 13. As for reconciliation, the risen Jesus gave the Apostles the power to forgive sins in John 20:23 and they passed that power on to the priest in the sacrament of holy orders (ordination).

So, I’ve used Scripture to show you the Catholic view of salvation. I assume that this is different than what you expected. That is because you need to understand scripture in the context in which it was written to interpret it correctly. And all of what I have written here predates the New Testament and has been passed down through reliable men for 2000 years. Again, some of them wrote this down but with scripture alone, you won’t be able to understand it correctly, even if you think you are particularly graced by the Holy Spirit. The simple fact is, Jesus appointed Peter and the Apostles to lead the Catholic Church. If you find yourself opposed to that Church, you are also opposed to Jesus, the head of the Church.

 

[Miguel_Sastre]

Chapter and verse please that says “all the oral teaching has become Scripture” and oral teaching is now defunct.

Chapter and verse that says there has to be a chapter and verse that says we are allowed to use our brains to know that the only infallible access we have to the oral teachings of the apostles is what the left us in their writing…or produce positive evidence that you have access to their oral teachings not recorded in scripture.

If you can’t produce these oral teachings, then you have no right to appeal to them. Merely positing that they can exist in principle does not mean they exist in reality today. If you say other wise, prove it.

 

[Miguel_Sastre]

Hmmm Miguel lets think about this.

Yes, let’s think, as in reason clearly, which clearly you’re not doing in what your write below:

God gives us (ie fallen humans with an inability to objectively discern the “object that is interpreted”) Scripture that is clear (to God, apparently) but which we, in our fallen state, cannot reliably discern.

 

[ESMDHokie77]

That is why it is so important to stay with whats in Gods word. Before we had the new testament given to us, it was all taught by oral instruction of what they saw and what was revealed to them by God. I do not dispute that fact. They also quoted from the old testament. But they instructed the people to Repent and turn to the Gospel of Jesus Christ. They were commissioned to preach the Gospel and that is what they did. Now years later, time had passed and God wanted his words preserved. We as his Church (the called out ones) can read and look into all these glorious truths of what God is revealing to us today in our Bible. If their is some doctrine that contradicts the word of God (his Holy Scriptures), we should have discernment as to what is a contrary to Gods Word.

The CC wants to hold fast to these traditions because they can not defend their doctrines by using Gods Word. I can defend Salvation by using Scripture alone. I can tell you what the Bible teaches about Salvation. I can read Acts and give you a broad summary concerning Salvation. If you can not defend your doctrine by using Gods Word alone, then you need to be as the noble Bereans were in Acts 17 and search the Scriptures to see if what Paul was saying is true.

You wrongly limit God’s Word to that which is written. This is an affront to God as it limits how God works in this world. I’m glad others posted better responses to you overnight than my thoughts in this post.

 

[PRmerger]

Chapter and verse that says there has to be a chapter and verse that says we are allowed to use our brains to know that the only infallible access we have to the oral teachings of the apostles is what the left us in their writing…

Ah! So **another **example here of your support of tradition.

And, using this paradigm, we need not use Scripture to support

• purgatory–we are allowed to use our brain and conclude that this makes sense, as nothing unclean can enter heaven, no?
• the IC–we are allowed to use our brain and conclude that, like the Ark of the Covenant that contained the Word, she was perfect
• the Assumption–we are allowed to use our brain and conclude that if Moses and Elijah were assumed, why not the Mother of God?

Will you allow us this, if we allow you your paradigm?

 

[gerard1984]

So what did Jesus actually do? Did he write a book? No, he claim the CC gave us Scripture but yet they always say that the New Testament is not God Breathed, Inspired. They want Chapter and verse on the Inspiration of The New didn’t. He appointed trusted men to pass on his word and they did the same up until the present time. Some of those Apostolic men wrote letters and books and they became scripture. Others in later generations also wrote down what they learned. These are the writings of the Early Church Fathers. You can trace Catholic Doctrine through them all the way back to the Apostles and see the consistency in teaching and Church administration.

Gerard, There is no Catholic Doctrine that is contradicted by scripture. If you believe it is, its simply reflects your misinterpretation of what scripture really means. We can help you with that if you want to be specific. When you deviate from Catholic Teaching, this is a sure sign that you are misintepreting scripture. After all, scripture was written by Catholics for Catholics. To believe that you understand them better than the people who wrote them is simply foolish.

We are not saved by works, we are saved by Grace Through Faith. If this is the Catholic teaching on salvation then this contradicts Scripture.

Ephesians 2:8-9
For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.

Galatians 3:10-14
10 For all who rely on the works of the law are under a curse, as it is written: “Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law.”[e] 11 Clearly no one who relies on the law is justified before God, because “the righteous will live by faith.”[f] 12 The law is not based on faith; on the contrary, it says, “The person who does these things will live by them.”[g] 13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: “Cursed is everyone who is hung on a pole.”[h] 14 He redeemed us in order that the blessing given to Abraham might come to the Gentiles through Christ Jesus, so that by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit.

This Says All Scripture. Does the CC believe that the New Testament is Scripture. You Testament. You guys can’t have it both ways. You are either admitting that the CC gave us uninspired books or that All Scripture is God Breathed.

2 Timothy 3:14-17
14 But as for you, continue in what you have learned and have become convinced of, because you know those from whom you learned it, 15 and how from infancy you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. 16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17 so that the servant of God[a] may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.

Gerard, do you understand what the Catholic Church teaches about salvation? Assuming not from what you have written, let me give you a synopsis.

A person enters the state of Grace through baptism. This grace is freely given to those who ask to become part of the church through their faith (or through their guardians faith). In doing so, you enter into a covenent relationship, where God forgives all your prior sins and you are born again. If you stay in the state of Grace until death, you will go to heaven. You do this by loving God and neighbor and avoiding mortal sin. Grace (the gift of God’s life within you) is enhanced by partaking of the sacraments particularly the eucharist and by works of love and devotion (including prayer and the reading of scripture), making it increasingly easy to avoid sin. If you do, however, fall from grace through sin, you can be reconciled to God through the sacrament of reconciliation (confession to a priest, contrition, penance and absolution).

All of this is supported by Scripture. The very first converts at Pentacost (Acts 2) were told to be baptized for the forgiveness of sins and Peter points out that baptism saves you now in 1Peter3:21. In John 3, Jesus explains that to get to heaven, you must be born of water and spirit. In John 6, Jesus explains that you must eat his bod and drink his blood or else you will have no life within you. In Matthew 19: 16-19, Jesus further explains that you must follow the commandments to enter eternal life and later he explains that those commandments can be summed up as loving God and your neighbor. In Romans 2: 5-10, Paul explains that those that do good works will go to Heaven and those that do evil will be condemned to Hell. In Matthew 7:21-23, Jesus tells us that only those that do the will of the Father will gain eternal life .(mortal sin is acting contrary to the will of the Father).Throughout the Old and new testaments, we are told to live the Christian life of Love, perhaps best summed up in 1Corinthians 13. As for reconciliation, the risen Jesus gave the Apostles the power to forgive sins in John 20:23 and they passed that power on to the priest in the sacrament of holy orders (ordination).

So, I’ve used Scripture to show you the Catholic view of salvation. I assume that this is different than what you expected. That is because you need to understand scripture in the context in which it was written to interpret it correctly. And all of what I have written here predates the New Testament and has been passed down through reliable men for 2000 years. Again, some of them wrote this down but with scripture alone, you won’t be able to understand it correctly, even if you think you are particularly graced by the Holy Spirit. The simple fact is, Jesus appointed Peter and the Apostles to lead the Catholic Church. If you find yourself opposed to that Church, you are also opposed to Jesus, the head of the Church.

 

[gerard1984]

Can you tell us where Acts says that it is the Word of God? Chapter and verse, please, from Acts, identifying that it is inspired.

This is curious. Did the Bereans hear about Christ from the Scriptures, or from the **oral **teaching of Paul?

The person below commented that the CC gave us the Bible. So are you telling me that Acts should not be in there? that it is not inspired?

2 Timothy 3:14-17
14 But as for you, continue in what you have learned and have become convinced of, because you know those from whom you learned it, 15 and how from infancy you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. 16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17 so that the servant of God[a] may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.

 

[justtryin]

gerard,

Please keep an open mind and think about all the discussion you have not only read here, but also what you have read and heard throughout your life. Ponder honestly and without bias nor preconcieved notions. For I think you provided your own solution when you told me on another thread:

I understand where you are coming from. I think a lot of this goes back to what we grew up being taught and it can go back several generations.

Keep all things in perspective and consider all things from both points of view. When you think about an issue consider how would a Protestant answer this? Then consider how would a Catholic answer this? There are alot of misconceptions about Catholicism in the world so use these boards to find out the Catholic answer. Weigh both sides. Be honest to yourself and consider all things.

I mean you no disrespect gerard and I wish you the best of luck. God bless.

 

[paul_c]

---

Quote:

Originally Posted by PRmerger
Can you tell us where Acts says that it is the Word of God? Chapter and verse, please, from Acts, identifying that it is inspired.

Her point was that the Bereans did not have access to Acts because it had not yet been written. The only Scripture that was available to them was the Old Testament. When Paul taught them ORALLY about the Gospel, he referred back to the Old Testament to show how Jesus fulfilled the prophesies. However, the Old Testament, the scripture of the day,was insufficient on its own to teach about the salvation that Jesus brought us. This is why you can’t use that passage to support Sola Scriptura. Paul certainly went well beyond the Old Testament in his teachings.

As for the exchange on Scripture in 2Timothy that you quote, it says that scripture is useful for teaching, rebuking , correcting and training in righteousness and so it is. And remember, they were talking about the Old Testament at this point since the New testament books were still to be written , compiled and circulated. Notice, however, that Paul did not say that ONLY scripture was to be believed. He couldn’t say that and still preach about Christ Crucified, which of course was only hinted at in the Old Testament. Again, paul went well beyond the scripture of the day in his ministry.

 

[gerard1984]

Gerard, do you understand what the Catholic Church teaches about salvation? Assuming not from what you have written, let me give you a synopsis.

A person enters the state of Grace through baptism. This grace is freely given to those who ask to become part of the church through their faith (or through their guardians faith). In doing so, you enter into a covenent relationship, where God forgives all your prior sins and you are born again. If you stay in the state of Grace until death, you will go to heaven. You do this by loving God and neighbor and avoiding mortal sin. Grace (the gift of God’s life within you) is enhanced by partaking of the sacraments particularly the eucharist and by works of love and devotion (including prayer and the reading of scripture), making it increasingly easy to avoid sin. If you do, however, fall from grace through sin, you can be reconciled to God through the sacrament of reconciliation (confession to a priest, contrition, penance and absolution).

All of this is supported by Scripture. The very first converts at Pentacost (Acts 2) were told to be baptized for the forgiveness of sins and Peter points out that baptism saves you now in 1Peter3:21. In John 3, Jesus explains that to get to heaven, you must be born of water and spirit. In John 6, Jesus explains that you must eat his bod and drink his blood or else you will have no life within you. In Matthew 19: 16-19, Jesus further explains that you must follow the commandments to enter eternal life and later he explains that those commandments can be summed up as loving God and your neighbor. In Romans 2: 5-10, Paul explains that those that do good works will go to Heaven and those that do evil will be condemned to Hell. In Matthew 7:21-23, Jesus tells us that only those that do the will of the Father will gain eternal life .(mortal sin is acting contrary to the will of the Father).Throughout the Old and new testaments, we are told to live the Christian life of Love, perhaps best summed up in 1Corinthians 13. As for reconciliation, the risen Jesus gave the Apostles the power to forgive sins in John 20:23 and they passed that power on to the priest in the sacrament of holy orders (ordination).

So, I’ve used Scripture to show you the Catholic view of salvation. I assume that this is different than what you expected. That is because you need to understand scripture in the context in which it was written to interpret it correctly. And all of what I have written here predates the New Testament and has been passed down through reliable men for 2000 years. Again, some of them wrote this down but with scripture alone, you won’t be able to understand it correctly, even if you think you are particularly graced by the Holy Spirit. The simple fact is, Jesus appointed Peter and the Apostles to lead the Catholic Church. If you find yourself opposed to that Church, you are also opposed to Jesus, the head of the Church.

This is quite different From what the Bible teaches on Salvation. You gave a lot of references so i will just touch on one.
Salvation.
We are not saved by works, we are saved by Grace Through Faith. If this is the Catholic teaching on salvation then this contradicts Scripture.
How do you know when you are on your death bed that you have done enough good works to enter into Heaven? We are all sinners, we sin everyday. Like Isaiah says our righteous deeds our as filthy rags. Thats why it depends on Grace, (unmerited favor) that we do not deserve but he freely gives to those who believe. We are condemned for our unbelief, rejecting the Gospel, we are not condemned because we did not do enough good works.

Ephesians 2:8-9
For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.

Ephesians 1:13
13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit,

John 3:17-18
17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.

Galatians 3:10-14
10 For all who rely on the works of the law are under a curse, as it is written: “Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law.”[e] 11 Clearly no one who relies on the law is justified before God, because “the righteous will live by faith.”[f] 12 The law is not based on faith; on the contrary, it says, “The person who does these things will live by them.”[g] 13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: “Cursed is everyone who is hung on a pole.”[h] 14 He redeemed us in order that the blessing given to Abraham might come to the Gentiles through Christ Jesus, so that by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit.

This Says All Scripture. Does the CC believe that the New Testament is Scripture. You guys can’t have it both ways. You are either admitting that the CC gave us uninspired books or that All Scripture is God Breathed.

2 Timothy 3:14-17
14 But as for you, continue in what you have learned and have become convinced of, because you know those from whom you learned it, 15 and how from infancy you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. 16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17 so that the servant of God[a] may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.

 

[ESMDHokie77]

This Says All Scripture. Does the CC believe that the New Testament is Scripture. You guys can’t have it both ways. You are either admitting that the CC gave us uninspired books or that All Scripture is God Breathed.

When Ephesians was written, the collection of writings that we now know as the New Testament was not yet collected and called the N.T.! We can have it both ways, since there is a timeline that can be filled out with how the N.T. came to be, from and through the Catholic Church.

Again, you’re flooding us with bible verses, we can’t have constructive dialogue in this fashion. By all means continue to quote scripture, but don’t inundate us without addressing what we’re trying to talk to you about.

 

[pablope]

Gerard, do you understand what the Catholic Church teaches about salvation? Assuming not from what you have written, let me give you a synopsis.

This is quite different From what the Bible teaches on Salvation. You gave a lot of references so i will just touch on one.
Salvation.
We are not saved by works, we are saved by Grace Through Faith.

** If this is the Catholic teaching on salvation then this contradicts Scripture.**

Your post is a little confusing, I had a hard time trying to determine your response.

I will just touch on this above…actually, it is not. It seems contradictory to you because you only take limited sections of the Bible, not the whole.

Ephesians 2:8-9
For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.

But you missed v10:

10For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

Ephesians 1:13
13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit,

or v14:
14who is the guarantee[d] of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it,[e] to the praise of his glory.

John 3:17-18
17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.

This is just the first step…and you also missed Matt 7:21
21 "Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.

Also…looks like you miss Heb 10:

26For if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a fearful expectation of judgment, and a fury of fire that will consume the adversaries
36For you have need of endurance, so that when you have done the will of God you may receive what is promised

This Says All Scripture. Does the CC believe that the New Testament is Scripture. You guys can’t have it both ways. You are either admitting that the CC gave us uninspired books or that All Scripture is God Breathed.

2 Timothy 3:14-17
14 But as for you, continue in what you have learned and have become convinced of, because you know those from whom you learned it, 15 and how from infancy you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. 16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17 so that the servant of God[a] may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.

Sorry, I cannot determine what your point is in here?

 

[gerard1984]

Her point was that the Bereans did not have access to Acts because it had not yet been written. The only Scripture that was available to them was the Old Testament. When Paul taught them ORALLY about the Gospel, he referred back to the Old Testament to show how Jesus fulfilled the prophesies. However, the Old Testament, the scripture of the day,was insufficient on its own to teach about the salvation that Jesus brought us. This is why you can’t use that passage to support Sola Scriptura. Paul certainly went well beyond the Old Testament in his teachings.

As for the exchange on Scripture in 2Timothy that you quote, it says that scripture is useful for teaching, rebuking , correcting and training in righteousness and so it is. And remember, they were talking about the Old Testament at this point since the New testament books were still to be written , compiled and circulated. Notice, however, that Paul did not say that ONLY scripture was to be believed. He couldn’t say that and still preach about Christ Crucified, which of course was only hinted at in the Old Testament. Again, paul went well beyond the scripture of the day in his ministry.

God said All Scripture, Remember Peter said that Paul’s writings were Scripture. We all have to remember this is Gods Word, not mans word. God wrote his Word through human vessels. I understand that when Paul was preaching he did not have any of the New testament to preach from, he had a Revelation from Jesus Christ. And he used the Old Testament along with his Revelation from Jesus to Preach to the Noble Bereans because they searched the Scriptures. When the new testament writers wrote this down i am sure that they were filled with the Holy Spirit. If you look at when they were filled with the Holy Spirit they always preached the word boldly or performed some type of miracle.

Maybe for future reference when someone on these forums quotes something from the New Testament that goes against the CC theology they should not say where in scripture does it say it was inspired. Because it was and that is what we have today.

 

[paul_c]

Gerard, do you understand what the Catholic Church teaches about salvation? Assuming not from what you have written, let me give you a synopsis.

No, Gerard, it is not different from what the Bible teaches on Salvation. I showed you with Scripture verses how everything I said was supported. It only differs from what you interpret the Bible to say. So lets go through your references and I’ll show you how it applies when you interpret them properly (i.e., through the lens of Catholic Tradition and the teaching of the Magesterium)

You gave a lot of references so i will just touch on one.
Salvation.
We are not saved by works, we are saved by Grace Through Faith. If this is the Catholic teaching on salvation then this contradicts Scripture.

We are saved by grace through Faith. This is what i was referring to when I said we gain sufficient grace to be saved when we show our faith and are baptized. You don’t need to do any works to be saved. BUT you must do good works to STAY in the state of grace after having been saved. That is the point of being born again- you get a second chance to do things right without having to do anything other than be baptized.

How do you know when you are on your death bed that you have done enough good works to enter into Heaven?

Gerard, you act as if God was an accountant. Its not about whether you do enough good works to enter heaven, Its about whether you are in the state of grace when you die.

We are all sinners, we sin everyday. Like Isaiah says our righteous deeds our as filthy rags. Thats why it depends on Grace, (unmerited favor) that we do not deserve but he freely gives to those who believe. We are condemned for our unbelief, rejecting the Gospel, we are not condemned because we did not do enough good works.

You hvae a very negative view of man so you must be hanging out in the wrong crowd. People can and do aspire to personal holiness. Its a process in which we learn to follow Christ. Have you never been near someone who is truly good? That doesn’t mean that they are perfect. And do you not know people who truly believe in the gospel. By the way, Grace is not earned, it is asked for in the sacraments.

 

[paul_c]

Lets go through your scripture passages and see how they fit in with Catholic theology:

Ephesians 2:8-9
For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.

let’s complete Paul’s thought:
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and this is not from you; it is the gift of God;
9 it is not from works, so no one may boast.
10 For we are his handiwork, created in Christ Jesus for the good works that God has prepared in advance, that we should live in them.

Of course grace is freely given and is not the result of works. All you need to do is present yourself for the sacraments Jesus put in place through his church to gain these graces. But once you get in the state of grace, we are expected to do the good works that God prepared in advance for us…

Ephesians 1:13
13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit,

Again, Lets complete the passage:
13 In him you also, who have heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and have believed in him, were sealed with the promised holy Spirit,
14 which is the first installment of our inheritance toward redemption as God’s possession, to the praise of his glory.
You are sealed with the holy spirit in the sacrament of Confirmation, which is what Paul is referring to hear. In adults this directly follows baptism Note that this is the first installment. There are more graces to be had by continuing to partake of the sacraments and doing works of love and devotion

John 3:17-18
17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.

Again, lets complete John’s thought:
17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world might be saved through him.
18 Whoever believes in him will not be condemned, but whoever does not believe has already been condemned, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.
19 And this is the verdict, that the light came into the world, but people preferred darkness to light, because their works were evil.
20 For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come toward the light, so that his works might not be exposed.
21 But whoever lives the truth comes to the light, so that his works may be clearly seen as done in God.
So you see, John is explaining that once we beleive we must do good works or be condemned…

Galatians 3:10-14
10 For all who rely on the works of the law are under a curse, as it is written: “Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law.”[e] 11 Clearly no one who relies on the law is justified before God, because “the righteous will live by faith.”[f] 12 The law is not based on faith; on the contrary, it says, “The person who does these things will live by them.”[g] 13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: “Cursed is everyone who is hung on a pole.”[h] 14 He redeemed us in order that the blessing given to Abraham might come to the Gentiles through Christ Jesus, so that by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit.

What Paul is saying here is that the Old Covenant can not save you. You need to enter into the new covenant which replaced circumcision with baptism and is entered through faith not by following the law. This is completely consistent with Catholic teaching

This Says All Scripture. Does the CC believe that the New Testament is Scripture. You guys can’t have it both ways. You are either admitting that the CC gave us uninspired books or that All Scripture is God Breathed. 2 Timothy 3:14-17
14 But as for you, continue in what you have learned and have become convinced of, because you know those from whom you learned it, 15 and how from infancy you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. 16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17 so that the servant of God[a] may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.

Gerard, the Catholic Church wrote , canonized and distributed the New Testament and of course it recognizes that it is inspired. The issue is how people interpret it. The Catholic Church, having authored the Bible under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, knows exactly what these passages mean and has passed that down from generation to genearation. Hopefully you can now see what the passages you were quoting actually mean in the context of salvation. And by the way, it always helps to look at the whole passage. If you truncate it, you often change the meaning…

 

[JonNC]

Ah! So **another **example here of your support of tradition.

And, using this paradigm, we need not use Scripture to support

• purgatory–we are allowed to use our brain and conclude that this makes sense, as nothing unclean can enter heaven, no?
• the IC–we are allowed to use our brain and conclude that, like the Ark of the Covenant that contained the Word, she was perfect
• the Assumption–we are allowed to use our brain and conclude that if Moses and Elijah were assumed, why not the Mother of God?

Will you allow us this, if we allow you your paradigm?

Hi PR,
My answer is yes! One caveat: since scripture isn’t explicit, it shouldn’t be doctrine. For example, you and I both believe that purgation takes place. Is there an intermediate state/place (Purgatory) where this happens? Scripture doesn’t say, but it is a reasonable supposition. If you and I share the belief that purgation takes place, why should the belief or not in an intermediate state/place (not clear in scripture) be Church dividing?

Same with the IC, the Assumption, and I would even say invocation.

Jon

 

[paul_c]

Hi PR,
My answer is yes! One caveat: since scripture isn’t explicit, it shouldn’t be doctrine. For example, you and I both believe that purgation takes place. Is there an intermediate state/place (Purgatory) where this happens? Scripture doesn’t say, but it is a reasonable supposition. If you and I share the belief that purgation takes place, why should the belief or not in an intermediate state/place (not clear in scripture) be Church dividing?

Same with the IC, the Assumption, and I would even say invocation.

Jon

You are on a very slippery slope, my friend. You could argue that very little is explicit in scripture since so much is misunderstood. And where do you draw the line?. After all, Baptism is explicitly called out in Acts 2 as needed to enter the church and in 1Peter 3, we are told it saves you, (using exactly those words). Yet there are many that deny its efficacy. Does that mean it shouldn’t be doctrine? You see, you absolutely need a trusted infallible authority to define doctrine. In the Catholic Church we have that. Others, not so much.

 

[gerard1984]

No, Gerard, it is not different from what the Bible teaches on Salvation. I showed you with Scripture verses how everything I said was supported. It only differs from what you interpret the Bible to say. So lets go through your references and I’ll show you how it applies when you interpret them properly (i.e., through the lens of Catholic Tradition and the teaching of the Magesterium)

We are saved by grace through Faith. This is what i was referring to when I said we gain sufficient grace to be saved when we show our faith and are baptized. You don’t need to do any works to be saved. BUT you must do good works to STAY in the state of grace after having been saved. That is the point of being born again- you get a second chance to do things right without having to do anything other than be baptized.

I have never quite heard an interpretation like that before. Is the doing good works to stay in the state of grace in the Tradition. Because that is not in the Bible. So the only work that you have to do to be saved is baptism and a continuation of good works to stay in the state of grace. We can not make ourselfs born again by doing these things. We are born again by hearing the Word of Truth, the Gospel of our Salvation as stated in Ephesians 1.
This is why i said that the CC can not defend their doctrines by using the Bible. I understand that is the CC view on Salvation, but it can not be supported by Scripture.

Gerard, you act as if God was an accountant. Its not about whether you do enough good works to enter heaven, Its about whether you are in the state of grace when you die.

I am not acting like God is an accountant, i was simply saying if you have to do all these works to maintain your salvation then how do we know if we have done enough. That is why it Salvation is All of God and not of man. It is his Gift.

You hvae a very negative view of man so you must be hanging out in the wrong crowd. People can and do aspire to personal holiness. Its a process in which we learn to follow Christ. Have you never been near someone who is truly good? That doesn’t mean that they are perfect. And do you not know people who truly believe in the gospel. By the way, Grace is not earned, it is asked for in the sacraments.

Think about the publican in Lukes account, could not even look to heaven when he said
God be merciful to me a sinner. Also Paul said he was the least of the Apostles.

 

[Philthy]

Yes, let’s think, as in reason clearly, which clearly you’re not doing in what your write below:

Philthy:

God gives us (ie fallen humans with an inability to objectively discern the “object that is interpreted”) Scripture that is clear (to God, apparently) but which we, in our fallen state, cannot reliably discern.

Is this your view or the view you’re attributing to those who hold to sola scriptura?

It is my summary of your view as deduced from what you have actually said. In summary, you essentially blamed interpretive diversity on fallen humanity making errors of interpretation here:

Miguel:

Since all parties agree that scripture is inerrant (though it is far from clear that Catholics would affirm a total inerrancy), it makes far more sense to postulate that any lack of clarity must reside in the fallible subject who interprets rather than the object that is interpreted. Sola scriptura—as historically understood—is the claim that the infallible, inerrant Word of God … is clear, but that we, fallible, errant human beings are less than clear. Interpretive diversity, therefore, is to be expected.

So there it is. According to you “we” are prone to error in interpreting inerrant Scripture. The problem with your SS position which I attempted to illustrate with my “Hmmm, lets think about this…”, is that SS simultaneously claims for the very same fallen humanity an ability to reliably know the truth/doctrine via interpretation of Scripture. It is in reconciling these two claims that I made the statement that:

Philthy:

What you (ie indiv interpreters) actually find is “a” meaning(via fallible interpretation) and that meaning may be the objective truth of Scripture or it may not; and you(ie me, you, fallible humanity) don’t have any concrete way of distinguishing the difference for a variety of doctrinal issues.

You criticized my reasoning and offered this:

…it simply doesn’t follow that if we are fallible, which we are, that we cannot arrive at the truth. A fallible conclusion isn’t a wrong one necessarily.

Which, of course, says nothing other than what I said: we arrive at a conclusion (ie interpretation)regarding the meaning, but that we don’t have a concrete way of distinguishing it from erroneous conclusions. Now I didnt mean to imply that this was always the case, but there are certain doctrine which remain elusive despite intense, repeated and prolonged exegesis. And you seem to admit this much when you say:

Miguel:

We…are fallible, which means we are not immune from error. That doesn’t mean we always get it wrong or even mostly get it wrong. In fact, I think we can usually get it right.

And this presents a legitimate problem Miguel: you still havent proposed a method for us as a community of Christians for arriving at a unified knowledge of the truth in those circumstances where it is difficult to determine from Scripture. And rather than addressing this issue, you seem to prefer to attack the concept of an infallible interpreter/Magisterium (and waste considerable time doing so). That is a topic for another thread. Suffice it to say that whether you are right or wrong regarding the Magisterium, it is irrelevant to addressing the practical problems of how SS works. We are discussing whether your concept of SS has the capacity to elucidate and communicate those salvific truths (ie doctrine) which the faithful need to know. In short, CAN IT WORK? It does your position no good to say, “There is a problem of interpretive diversity, but the Catholic way doesnt resolve it!” What we need you to do is demonstrate how, given our fallibility and the fact that we are often prone to interpretive error, we are to know the objectively true doctrine of Scripture from the erroneous ones. I’ll give you a heads up - this answer doesnt cut it:

We…are fallible…That doesn’t mean we always get it wrong or even mostly get it wrong. In fact, I think we can usually get it right.

It’s great -for you- that you think that, as Im sure your confidence in your own opinion gives you “comfort”, but it kinda leaves the rest of us scratching our heads. Your opinion is only one of many from our perspective. It’s not what we would call a firm end point in doctrinal determination. It appears you differ from us in this regard.
So there remains some unanswered questions:
**How are the important but relatively unclear truths of Scripture unambiguously identified as such and communicated to the faithful under your version of SS?

**Do you do it? Does the “church” do it, and if so, please carefully define the church and give a single example of when, exactly, and how, exactly, this has happened in the past. It’s called a reality check, Miguel. You’re long overdue for one…

Blessings!

 

[gerard1984]

Your post is a little confusing, I had a hard time trying to determine your response.

I will just touch on this above…actually, it is not. It seems contradictory to you because you only take limited sections of the Bible, not the whole.

But you missed v10:

10For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

or v14:
14who is the guarantee[d] of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it,[e] to the praise of his glory.

This is just the first step…and you also missed Matt 7:21
21 "Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.

Also…looks like you miss Heb 10:

26For if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a fearful expectation of judgment, and a fury of fire that will consume the adversaries
36For you have need of endurance, so that when you have done the will of God you may receive what is promised

Sorry, I cannot determine what your point is in here?

Hebrews 10:26 is referring to the people who wanted to go back to Judaism. If you go back to that there is no more sacrifice for sins, because animal sacrifice no longer was sufficient, it was now the One Perfect Sacrifice of Jesus Christ.

Let me ask you this question. Have you in your life ever sinned willfully after receiving the Knowledge of the Truth. If your answer is yes then you would be condemned to hell according to your interpretation of this passage.