Is someone punished when they think they are not being punished?

[fakename]

For instance, if you were being beaten for doing something bad, but you’re a sadomachist and love pain, then are you being punished or not?

And so, in daily life, if punishments are used to complete justice, is justice attained if the unjust man does not know he is being punished but takes pleasure in his punishment?

I think the answer is no, especially since Aristotle says that no one can be punished according to his will (except metaphorically, a position I think Aquinas accepted (hard to understand Jesus then though, except that Jesus was not perhaps, punished in the strict sense of the word)).

 

[jonathan_hili]

For instance, if you were being beaten for doing something bad, but you’re a sadomachist and love pain, then are you being punished or not?

And so, in daily life, if punishments are used to complete justice, is justice attained if the unjust man does not know he is being punished but takes pleasure in his punishment?

I think the answer is no, especially since Aristotle says that no one can be punished according to his will (except metaphorically, a position I think Aquinas accepted (hard to understand Jesus then though, except that Jesus was not perhaps, punished in the strict sense of the word)).

I think there is both an objective and subjective dimension to punishment. In your example of the sadomasochist, I presume subjectively he would not feel pain or deprivation and therefore the intended effects of punishment on the subject would not occur. However, objectively he is still being punished because punishment isn’t defined by the level of its effects (e.g. such a measure of pain, disease, deprivation, etc.) but by the intention of the one dealing out the punishment.

Of course, if you’re a phenomenologist you might see things differently.

 

[bolinstephen]

Why do you say Jesus was not punished in the strict scene of the word?

 

[Pugsly]

For instance, if you were being beaten for doing something bad, but you’re a sadomachist and love pain, then are you being punished or not?

And so, in daily life, if punishments are used to complete justice, is justice attained if the unjust man does not know he is being punished but takes pleasure in his punishment?

I think the answer is no, especially since Aristotle says that no one can be punished according to his will (except metaphorically, a position I think Aquinas accepted (hard to understand Jesus then though, except that Jesus was not perhaps, punished in the strict sense of the word)).

I see whole nations getting punished right now (e.g…Western civilization) and most people don’t realize it.

Can you be punished and not realize it…? Yes

Can you suffer and not understand why? Yes

Can punishment lead to IMPROVED conditions without realization…? NO

 

[djames99]

Our body is not our own it is an instrument of God. It was given to us in order to fulfill a task here on earth and along with the soul to share eternal happiness in heaven which is it’s inheritance. It is a gift to us. We are obliged to put it to good use in service to God and in charity to others and to ourselves. A person who delights in any inordinate physical stimuli is self oriented, when we are to deny ourselves. (notwithstanding psychological causes of course.).

Those who administer punishment must be legally permitted to administer justice. For instance a parent has authority and can administer corporal condign punishment. A school principle could suspend a student for a few days. A person who assaults another is not.

Two responsibilities are in play, one the receiver or caretaker of his charge, the body, and the other the administrator of justice, keeping in mind the dignity and fraternal relationship the judged has with him. A civil authority morally bound to God’s laws collectively ensures these principles are always considered.

Each could be culpable of a wrong if not guided by moral right.

 

[fakename]

I think there is both an objective and subjective dimension to punishment. In your example of the sadomasochist, I presume subjectively he would not feel pain or deprivation and therefore the intended effects of punishment on the subject would not occur. However, objectively he is still being punished because punishment isn’t defined by the level of its effects (e.g. such a measure of pain, disease, deprivation, etc.) but by the intention of the one dealing out the punishment.

Of course, if you’re a phenomenologist you might see things differently.

But if punishment is not defined by its effects, then in it is as if the end of something was not proportioned to that something per se. That is, it would be like saying that lunch is not defined by the degree of satiety, but that it exists independent of such satiety.

This is only true in some accidental and sophistical sense I think. For instance, we have lunch, and lunch is supposed to make us full, but it just so happens that an external even not inherent to lunch deprives us of such a satisfaction. So it is not that lunch can per se, exist w/o satiety but that it accidentally does not bear its fruit because it is choked off by something else.

Likewise with punishment; it is supposed to reach a definite end, and yet it sometimes does not.

So does punishment exist in my question? I think perhaps the answer is yes, but its effects are masked by something else. Yet, it still seems like sometimes the effects are not only masked but totally non-existent. If for instance one crafts up an absurd punishment -like tickling -then could one really call this a punishment since it does not cause any psychic pain but rather pleasure? Can one really argue that punishment exists yet is merely incidentally non-existent?

 

[fakename]

Why do you say Jesus was not punished in the strict scene of the word?

I’m saying that punishment can only exist when someone has done something morally wrong. And yet since Jesus did not do anything wrong then he is not strictly being punished.

 

[Robert_Sock]

For instance, if you were being beaten for doing something bad, but you’re a sadomachist and love pain, then are you being punished or not?

And so, in daily life, if punishments are used to complete justice, is justice attained if the unjust man does not know he is being punished but takes pleasure in his punishment?

I think the answer is no, especially since Aristotle says that no one can be punished according to his will (except metaphorically, a position I think Aquinas accepted (hard to understand Jesus then though, except that Jesus was not perhaps, punished in the strict sense of the word)).

The answer is yes. Indeed, we are all being punished in a fallen world but few of us realize it.

 

[wittgenstein]

Response to the OP and post 2.
A masochist and a sadist got married. Everyone thought it was the perfect marriage. On their wedding night, the masochist said,“beat me. Beat me”. The sadist said,“no”. Satan is the father of all lies.
Another point, I went thru surgery while being a child. I was anesthetized. I was aware of the pain. People said,“what does it matter? Let it go. If you do not remember it,its like it never happened.” I strongly disagree.

 

[jonathan_hili]

But if punishment is not defined by its effects, then in it is as if the end of something was not proportioned to that something per se. That is, it would be like saying that lunch is not defined by the degree of satiety, but that it exists independent of such satiety.

I’m suggesting it can only be partly defined by its effects. A man going to his dentist might consider it a form of self-punishment but the dentist who is drilling away doesn’t.

So does punishment exist in my question? I think perhaps the answer is yes, but its effects are masked by something else. Yet, it still seems like sometimes the effects are not only masked but totally non-existent. If for instance one crafts up an absurd punishment -like tickling -then could one really call this a punishment since it does not cause any psychic pain but rather pleasure? Can one really argue that punishment exists yet is merely incidentally non-existent?

Again, I think we need to distinguish between the person giving the punishment and the person receiving the punishment. Any act of punishment may be intended as such but not received as such; likewise, any act may not be intended as punishment but may be received as such. So, I still think there is an objective and subjective element to punishment.

 

[fakename]

I’m suggesting it can only be partly defined by its effects. A man going to his dentist might consider it a form of self-punishment but the dentist who is drilling away doesn’t.

Again, I think we need to distinguish between the person giving the punishment and the person receiving the punishment. Any act of punishment may be intended as such but not received as such; likewise, any act may not be intended as punishment but may be received as such. So, I still think there is an objective and subjective element to punishment.

I think I agree. And the implication then would be, that punishment exists only in the case that something bad has happened and there is an objective and subjective corrective pain applied.

So if there is no subjective pain, then there is no punishment (except perhaps analogically). Likewise if there is no objective application of pain (perhaps one is merely hallucinating that one is being punished) then also there is no punishment?

Indeed, if there is someone who doesn’t care about pain, then that person cannot be corrected by pain (but perhaps still, by pleasure)?

 

[jonathan_hili]

Sounds about right.