Is speaking in tongues, xenoglossia or glossolalia?

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I think charismatic movements and their service are certainly valuable. Here’s another person who seems to support my position - Dr. William Carroll, EWTN:
ewtn.com/v/experts/showmessage_print.asp?number=315116&language=en
Answer by Dr. William Carroll on 03-23-2002:
Thank you very much for the documentary citation, which shows that I was correct when I said the Pope had approved the charmismatic movement (though not, specifically, “praying in tongues” that no one understands). - Dr. Carroll
The questions is what do you think about the Decree. It is a Church document. Do you think it has value? The Church has recognized the ICCRS. Do you accept this?

I just want to know if we are advancing at the same pace. I accept it. Then I am moving on to see if the Church also accepts their Baptism of the Holy Spirit and the distinction of ‘prayng’ and ‘speaking’ in tongues. Certainly, the Bishops are aware of these practices and I want to find out more about the Church’s position in this regard.

I understand people go to meetig to get if they can a gift and some walk away with one. I am trying to understand this, but, it is happening. In one of the links I provided the speaker talks about an exorcist who has people who speak in tongues participate in his exorcism and the demons do not like it (this is the reason the priest allows this, because he wants to make the demons as uncomfortable as possible so they will leave the body of the possessed).
 
The questions is what do you think about the Decree. It is a Church document. Do you think it has value? The Church has recognized the ICCRS. Do you accept this?
Yes.
In one of the links I provided the speaker talks about an exorcist who has people who speak in tongues participate in his exorcism and the demons do not like it (this is the reason the priest allows this, because he wants to make the demons as uncomfortable as possible so they will leave the body of the possessed).
People who speak in tongues, participating in an exorcism is not allowed. In fact, it’s explicitly forbidden by the Church. Only a priest, a second priest assistant or deacon, and a medical doctor preferably Catholic is allowed to be present for exorcism; not an group of laymen who have no business doing things like this.

Rev. Fr. Mitch Pacwa, SJ is a dual-ritual priest incardinated in the Maronite Syriac Church. He once relayed a “speaking in tongues” moment he experienced at a charismatic gathering - he said most of it was unintelligible, but one of the speakers sounded to him as if he was cursing God in Aramaic. When Fr. Mitch asked the person if he knew what was said, the speaker had no idea. In general, these kinds of things should be avoided, as without an interpreter one has no idea what spirit is involved - if any at all. The vast majority of this is simple syllabalistic mouth moving, nothing at all worth promoting, “teaching” or exalting.
 
Yes.

People who speak in tongues, participating in an exorcism is not allowed. In fact, it’s explicitly forbidden by the Church. Only a priest, a second priest assistant or deacon, and a medical doctor preferably Catholic is allowed to be present for exorcism; not an group of laymen who have no business doing things like this.

Rev. Fr. Mitch Pacwa, SJ is a dual-ritual priest incardinated in the Maronite Syriac Church. He once relayed a “speaking in tongues” moment he experienced at a charismatic gathering - he said most of it was unintelligible, but one of the speakers sounded to him as if he was cursing God in Aramaic. When Fr. Mitch asked the person if he knew what was said, the speaker had no idea. In general, these kinds of things should be avoided, as without an interpreter one has no idea what spirit is involved - if any at all. The vast majority of this is simple syllabalistic mouth moving, nothing at all worth promoting, “teaching” or exalting.
Well, I have to give it to you. You make a point there. If no one understands, a demon could take advantage of the situation and temporarily influence a person to curse God. I have to think about this… Although, demons would be hard pressed to stick around where the Holy Spirit is present and to even in the presence of the Holy Spirit to curse God…

I am going to listen again to what the man said in that recording I linked to from an Arlington parish. He said that it is a exorcist in Rome. I’ll check it out.
 
Yes.

People who speak in tongues, participating in an exorcism is not allowed. In fact, it’s explicitly forbidden by the Church. Only a priest, a second priest assistant or deacon, and a medical doctor preferably Catholic is allowed to be present for exorcism; not an group of laymen who have no business doing things like this.
Quote please.
 
Quote please.
exorcismus.org/who-is-exorcist/

The link is specific to exorcism in the Roman Church, Eastern Churches have different rules but one thing is certain - a priest needs permission from his bishop and a bunch of extra people are not to be involved. A small team of intercessors seem to be allowed, they can pray for the person but are not to pray anything like what the priest is praying. People standing around and humming/glossaling? I don’t know. Seems odd.
 
Do you having something stating that an exorcist cannot have a person who ‘prays’ in tongues at an exorcism or that only priests and doctos can be present at an exorcism?
 
Do you having something stating that an exorcist cannot have a person who ‘prays’ in tongues at an exorcism or that only priests and doctos can be present at an exorcism?
I was wrong about that. Sorry.
 
Some other homilies on the subject:

youtu.be/5nFqBQ3Pfzc
youtu.be/AEuk3OyoSjo
I listened to both videos.:rolleyes:

Well, I am a child of God. I was created by God in His image. I respect people and I respect myself. I respect a beggar covered in diarrhea and smelling of aged urine, just as much as I would someone in any high position surrounded by comfort and luxuries. To me a human being is a human being.

I respect priests. I would give my life up any day for that of a priest. I am obedient to priests in their position as priests and as my spiritual fathers. But, if a priest outside of practicing his priestly duties disrespected me - I would not accept it. Period.

In the same way as, if a priest utilizing the authority of the priesthood, misuses it to promote some ideology contrary to the teachings of the Church; I would let go in one ear and out the other. There are, unfortunately, priests, that are teaching what they think should be taught and are upholding what they think is good and promoting this from the altar as if from a podium where they can voice their own individual position on a topic. I understand, for instance, there are priests who have outright promoted the gay lifestyle from the altar, but, this is not the teaching of the Church; and priests in Haiti, who are okay it seems with Voodoo and in even practice some form of it from the altar.

What I am trying to say here is that I respect priests and I listen to them, but I do not check my brain at the entrance. I don’t listen as if I did not have a brain and just accept and receive whatever a priest says from the altar. It has to comply with the teachings of the Church. Furthermore, there are priests from whom I experience much spiritual nourishing, more than others. And, sometimes, I can leave totally empty.

If I had heard that sermon, that is how I would have left - empty. Next.

The priest is pushing his position but lacks respect for those who may hold the contrary view or may be undecided. He stands at a distance and condemns it and disrespecting the intellectual ability of the laity. selective presents who he presents from history and what points he presents. It can be said, that artificially he won his own points but only with those that were not thinking and did not walk away offended or empty.

I can’t take such a presentation serious. There is much immaturity there. A shepherd has to smell like the sheep to better guide them - not stand at a distance like a know it all talking down to the listeners.

To be respected and to guide one needs to respect and be intellectually and spiritually honest about the matter at hand. That means, at the very minimum not being selective about the information presented. Why not, for instance, mention Saint Theresa of Avila? We need to be intellectually honest, and shouldn’t hide her under the carpet someplace. Who said that the only spiritual gift that we are witnessing in modern times is the gift of ‘praying’ in tongues? This is not correct.

So, I would just turn the page with those videos and keep going. I would look for a more serious and mature sheppherd to guide me.
 
That is your option. I did find anything mentioned there standoffish or not backed up with strong theological foundation. You may not have liked what the priests stated but what do you know about “how they smell” from their sermon? They might be serving the poor like Mother Teresa when not at Mass. I don’t think its appropriate to pretend as if you know otherwise.

The first one is a priest Exorcist, Id assume it would be exactly whom you would want to hear, considering your previous poat
 
You may not have liked what the priests stated but what do you know about “how they smell” from their sermon? They might be serving the poor like Mother Teresa when not at Mass. I don’t think its appropriate to pretend as if you know otherwise.
I am not referring to physically at his parish, but the sheep that he is addressing in this particular topic. The sheep would be all those who are either practicing this speaking in tongues, Baptism of the Holy Spirit, and those as myself who are trying to understand what is going on. Other than that, yes, you would be right, I have no idea what the priests is doing or not; but I am not referring to that but on this issue.
The first one is a priest Exorcist, Id assume it would be exactly whom you would want to hear, considering your previous poat
I am listening to them again, I had a problem with the second one - intellectually. He makes a big deal also about one of the people he is quoting being an exorcist - well, Padre Fortea is a renown exorcist and he leads the international exorcist conferences. He is not Micky Mouse here. Yet, he went to one of those prayer meetings and was given the Gift of Tongues. I am learning and I do not allow people to make intellectual decisions for me. I am trying to understand how people can just go to one of these meetings and pick up a gift. 🤷

Again, I am listening to the arguments again.

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In this Mass Pope Francis says that he is going to discuss speaking in tongues, but “not the speaking in tongues that some of you will be doing; that one only the Holy Spirit understand” and people smile and laugh and he celebrating them cheers them on.

youtube.com/watch?v=vNGtYR5leEw

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I think it’s good to discern what is being taught. Did you know that there are priests who do not believe Satan exists and actually roams the earth? It’s amazing. It’s like a king of a kingdom who does not know he is the king, and lives in a small hut by a muddy stream, day dreaming about how he would be a just king and make better the standard of living for all - if only he was king.
 
Correction:

The recording starts where it starts and Pope Francis says exactly: “…the diverse tongues that you speak. I am speaking of the languages, not the tongue that some of you will be speaking during Mass, for that one only the Holy Spirit understands.”

So, it is not that he is going to discuss speaking in tongues.

Translated by: Abba
 
SyroMalankara.

I think we are getting all this wrong. It seems to be that what sounds to us like glossolalia is actually an unknown language.

I saw the video of Padre Fortea praying in tongues and it seems as though he is repeating something and I wondered if it was an unknown language (not glossolalia). It seems to be a language. When in Mexico he asked a Jewish (monk?) who was a psychologist and converted to the Catholic faith to listen to him praying in tongues and let him know if it was Hebrew or Aramaic. The (monk?) listened and said that it was neither Hebrew nor Aramaic.

There is another priest who was given the gift of tongues and the evening it happened at a prayer; there was another priests who went to him and asked him if he knew Latin. The priest said that he did not but knew the Our Father, Hail Mary and the Hail Holy Queen. The other priest told him that he was praying to Mother Mary in ancient Latin.

So, maybe it is not “glossolalai” but complete languages we do not recognize? What do you think?
 
I think it’s really a stretch. Normally, the simplest explanation for any action is the one most likely to be true.

Why did Padre Fortea ask a Jewish rabbi (they have no monks) if he was using Hebrew or Aramaic? Isn’t he the speaker supposed to know what they are saying? Was he hoping it was one of those two languages?

As to ‘Ancient Latin’, its nearly unbelievable that anyone knows ancient Latin enough to identify it. There are hardly many who know Latin at all, let alone ‘ancient’ whatever that means. The language known as ‘ancient Latin’ to scholars was before 75BC, before Rome was founded, used by Cicero and his contemporaries. prisca Latinitas was not used in the church, or in Biblical texts. The pronunciation of prisca Latinitas would be hardly known to Latin scholars, let alone a random priest in South America. Besides, what would be the point, prisca Latinitas was used before the Hail Mary was composed.
 
I think it’s really a stretch. Normally, the simplest explanation for any action is the one most likely to be true.
Some priests are saying that they pray in a language they never studied when they pray in tongues and this they say not denying that others pray in tongues in - glossolalia. So, I guess both is happening.

A Fray explaining: What does it mean to speak in tongues, says that it is what Saint Augustine expressed about the harvesters. People picking the harvest start singing because the harvest is good, then they are just so happy they start singing in such a way that it is just to express their joy - the words get in the way. Similarly, when the Holy Spirit fills our hearts with love; words get in the way and people speak in tongues. The energy we would normally use to select our syllables and make sentences, etc… is skipped and we jump fulll of love like an explosion to pray. I guess kind of like that Russian video: youtube.com/watch?v=oavMtUWDBTM 🙂
youtube.com/watch?v=YCBk8IYvcUM Love is above all expression.

Luke 6:45
A good man out of the good treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is good; and an evil man out of the evil treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is evil: for of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaketh.

All this brings to mind, David. I have an image in my mind of David from Sacred Scripture; singing and dancing in the street. I wonder if his joy gave into glossolalia.
Why did Padre Fortea ask a Jewish rabbi (they have no monks) if he was using Hebrew or Aramaic? Isn’t he the speaker supposed to know what they are saying? Was he hoping it was one of those two languages?
The monk is a Jewish convert to Catholicism who knows Hebrew and Aramaic. He wonders what language it is that he prays in.
As to ‘Ancient Latin’, its nearly unbelievable that anyone knows ancient Latin enough to identify it. There are hardly many who know Latin at all, let alone ‘ancient’ whatever that means. The language known as ‘ancient Latin’ to scholars was before 75BC, before Rome was founded, used by Cicero and his contemporaries. prisca Latinitas was not used in the church, or in Biblical texts. The pronunciation of prisca Latinitas would be hardly known to Latin scholars, let alone a random priest in South America. Besides, what would be the point, prisca Latinitas was used before the Hail Mary was composed.
The priest was taught by his family as a child how to pray the Hail Holy Queen, Our Father and Ave Maria in Latin, but, he does not know Latin. The other priest told him that he was praying to Mary in old latin - nothing about him praying the Hail Mary.

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Nonetheless, Paul tells us that it the gifts are for the benefit of the community/Church. How are this gifts helping the Church? Here the laity witness that they have a personal relationship with Our Lord and of the gifts they have been given by the Holy Spirit. youtube.com/watch?v=Y6fITfihNeA Is the Church in need of such witnesses?

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A reivew by the Pope:
youtube.com/watch?v=mYThiDXhA5k

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A meeting of the Pope with the Catholic Charismatics:

youtube.com/watch?v=AOnqp5SpYpw

Notice how they repeat Hosanna and certain phrases e.g. Hosanna to the King of Kings! Maybe in some of the tongues people are repeating phrases but we do not know the language so we can’t even identify that it is a phrase from a language. We repeat things like - Alleluya… I mean if I did not understand the language it could sound like a tongue, and people repeating certain phrases.



Well, it’s been interesting. I want to read up more on this. Something is going on. When the Pope surrounded by cardinals and bishops cheer on the charismatics, it’s definately not satanic. Btw, Padre Fortea says that the demons understand what is being said when people ‘glossolalia.’

I’m going to read the links grannymh provided etc…

2 Samuel 6
1Now David again gathered all the chosen men of Israel, thirty thousand. 2And David arose and went with all the people who were with him to Baale-judah, to bring up from there the ark of God which is called by the Name, the very name of the LORD of hosts who is enthroned above the cherubim. 3They placed the ark of God on a new cart that they might bring it from the house of Abinadab which was on the hill; and Uzzah and Ahio, the sons of Abinadab, were leading the new cart. 4So they brought it with the ark of God from the house of Abinadab, which was on the hill; and Ahio was walking ahead of the ark. 5Meanwhile, David and all the house of Israel were celebrating before the LORD with all kinds of instruments made of fir wood, and with lyres, harps, tambourines, castanets and cymbals.
 
**CONGREGATION FOR THE DOCTRINE OF THE FAITH

Letter “Iuvenescit Ecclesia” to the Bishops of the Catholic Church
Regarding the Relationship Between Hierarchical and Charismatic Gifts
in the Life and the Mission of the Church**

vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20160516_iuvenescit-ecclesia_en.html

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The Catholic Charismatic Renewal has 100 million members. :eek:

Here: youtube.com/watch?v=AOnqp5SpYpw the Pope reaffirms what Cardinal Leo Seunes said and one of the thing I am understanding is that the CCR is not an end to itself and should not be considered a 'movement’etc…it has no founder…But, it is more a current that is spreading in the Church. It seems as though it will be eliminated once it has served the purpose of renewal. 🤷
 
**CONGREGATION FOR THE DOCTRINE OF THE FAITH

Letter “Iuvenescit Ecclesia” to the Bishops of the Catholic Church
Regarding the Relationship Between Hierarchical and Charismatic Gifts
in the Life and the Mission of the Church**

vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20160516_iuvenescit-ecclesia_en.html

+++

The Catholic Charismatic Renewal has 100 million members. :eek:

Here: youtube.com/watch?v=AOnqp5SpYpw the Pope reaffirms what Cardinal Leo Seunes said and one of the thing I am understanding is that the CCR is not an end to itself and should not be considered a 'movement’etc…it has no founder…But, it is more a current that is spreading in the Church. It seems as though it will be eliminated once it has served the purpose of renewal. 🤷
The figure for the members of CCR is by way of estimation but the effect of the Renewal and therefore people who embrace it is surely much greater. Of course, that by itself does not say anything unless for the fact to supplement its canonical recognition that it is a massive part of the Church today.

I have been trying to bring up this document with regards to the discussion about the Charismatic Renewal, - Euvenescit Ecclesia or the Church Rejuvenates in English, a document of doctrine of faith. It is for the Bishops.

It is a good read, a new instruction, so to speak, that says the hierarchical gifts and the charismatic gifts are both accepted from the the Holy Spirit. The former constitutes the Institutional Church while the latter, the Church of Charity.

In this document, it makes the Bishop now to accept the Charismatic gift and spirituality except of course with caveat - that such movements in their dioceses have to fulfill certain criteria, for example submission to the local ordinary and to work for the greater good of the Church.

Since this is an official document, it is important for those in the Renewal to even be more humble and perhaps not to use it as solely to justify themselves or to say that they have been right all along, but rather to see it as a move of the Spirit for them to be church, work together under the leadership of their clergy in their respective parishes and fidelity to the Bishop and the Pope.
 
CONGREGATION FOR THE DOCTRINE OF THE FAITH

Letter “Iuvenescit Ecclesia” to the Bishops of the Catholic Church
Regarding the Relationship Between Hierarchical and Charismatic Gifts
in the Life and the Mission of the Church

“Whoever speaks in a tongue builds himself up, but whoever prophesies builds up the Church” (I Cor 14:4). The Apostle does not reject the gift of glossolalia, a charism of prayer useful for the personal relationship with God, and he recognizes it as an authentic charism, although not directly having a communal benefit: “I give thanks to God that I speak in tongues more than any of you, but in the Church I would rather speak five words with my mind, so as to instruct others also, than ten thousand words in a tongue” (I Cor 14:18-19).
 
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