Is speaking in tongues, xenoglossia or glossolalia?

[Reuben_J]

CONGREGATION FOR THE DOCTRINE OF THE FAITH

Letter “Iuvenescit Ecclesia” to the Bishops of the Catholic Church
Regarding the Relationship Between Hierarchical and Charismatic Gifts
in the Life and the Mission of the Church

“Whoever speaks in a tongue builds himself up, but whoever prophesies builds up the Church” (I Cor 14:4). The Apostle does not reject the gift of glossolalia, a charism of prayer useful for the personal relationship with God, and he recognizes it as an authentic charism, although not directly having a communal benefit: “I give thanks to God that I speak in tongues more than any of you, but in the Church I would rather speak five words with my mind, so as to instruct others also, than ten thousand words in a tongue” (I Cor 14:18-19).

I know. This is what we are telling people in our Community not to do - to throw the document on the faces of those people who have objected to the Charismatic gifts, especially if they are your local clergy.

Accept it quietly knowing that the document has been issued. The Bishops know about this, some priests may not, since this just come out in June. The last thing we want is to make the members feel proud and to say, “We told you so” but rather to even endeavor to work together for the rejuvenation of the Church.

 

[Abba]

I know. This is what we are telling people in our Community not to do - to throw the document on the faces of those people who have objected to the Charismatic gifts, especially if they are your local clergy.

Accept it quietly knowing that the document has been issued. The Bishops know about this, some priests may not, since this just come out in June. The last thing we want is to make the members feel proud and to say, “We told you so” but rather to even endeavor to work together for the rejuvenation of the Church.

Reuben J, it’s nice that you are being humble as a member of the CCR. However, I am not a member and I just discovered this document on my own as I am doing my little research. I am trying to understand what is going on and this document is very helpful. I am not rubbing it in anyone’s face. But, I do appreciate that your organization is being humble about it.

However, the document is out and everyone should know about it. It doesn’t have to be kept a secret. I am going to take a look at Corinthians again and read it as the Church is officially interpreting it - with Paul referring to glossolalia. This means he spoke/prayed in glossolalia. Interesting.

I knew there was something going on…:yup:

But, actually, there is nothing new here. Once the Church has been rejuvenated the organization will be closed. The recognition of the gifts will be integrated with the Church life. I understand this as being truly a rejuvenation, not anything new.

This reminds me of when Jesus told Saint Faustina His Mercy, and she said something about it not being new. And, He answered something like but who remembers/promotes/knows it ( I am seriously paraphrasing here - I read the diary about ten years ago). So, it’s not like Jesus all of the sudden became Merciful - He has always been - but this aspect of His was - rejuvenated, if you will, in the life of the Church via Divine Mercy.

 

[Reuben_J]

Reuben J, it’s nice that you are being humble as a member of the CCR. However, I am not a member and I just discovered this document on my own as I am doing my little research. I am trying to understand what is going on and this document is very helpful. I am not rubbing it in anyone’s face. But, I do appreciate that your organization is being humble about it.

However, the document is out and everyone should know about it. It doesn’t have to be kept a secret. I am going to take a look at Corinthians again and read it as the Church is officially interpreting it - with Paul referring to glossolalia. This means he spoke/prayed in glossolalia. Interesting.

I knew there was something going on…:yup:

But, actually, there is nothing new here. Once the Church has been rejuvenated the organization will be closed. The recognition of the gifts will be integrated with the Church life. I understand this as being truly a rejuvenation, not anything new.

This reminds me of when Jesus told Saint Faustina His Mercy, and she said something about it not being new. And, He answered something like but who remembers/promotes/knows it ( I am seriously paraphrasing here - I read the diary about ten years ago). So, it’s not like Jesus all of the sudden became Merciful - He has always been - but this aspect of His was - rejuvenated, if you will, in the life of the Church via Divine Mercy.

Yes, I understand you. And thanks for the thread.

As I mentioned in some posts, the CCR have come a long way. It was something new, even those early leaders were puzzled about the gifts. What they were not mistaken was the effect the Renewal had on them personally and corporately.

As it is with something new, there can be confusion and denial as well. It can be said that some, not all though, early leaders of the Renewal were not really equipped to handle this especially in relation to the local clergy. In some diocese, it was a total mess, and the bad blood is being carried today. A bishop would whisper to his priests, they are in contact all the times, as how we are too; an opinion of the Bishop would be carried over by the priests, and as in all things, we know where their loyalty lies. Thus one objecting Bishop would have a lasting influence on the others.

However, there are those, both from the clergy and laity, some you mentioned in your posts, who experienced conversion in the Renewal, some as simple as in a prayer meeting.

Testimonies by some highly prominent priests and Bishops who got the gift of tongue were simply by being prayed over by students. Can you believe that! Read Fr. Reneiro Cantalamessa, the preacher to the Papal household, if you got the time.

So over the years, the fruits of the Renewal in the parishes and the Universal Church are unmistakeable, and Popes were recognizance of them. After all it was Pope John XXIII who initiated to pray for the new Pentecost and then there was the Vatican II.

However, disagreement and an unopeness to the Renewal remains in few areas though they were tolerated but few individuals still have strong aversion to it. I witnessed an unfortunate incident in an international conference where an elderly Bishop from the host country made a scathing remark against the Renewal in the full presence of the international delegates, the big guns from the ICRSSS were all there. We understood that but if we are truly disciple of Jesus, we have to be humble and still submit to the authority.

The Vatican however moves with clarity it seems with regards to this. If you notice in the last decade, many new Bishops were appointed from the younger generations and who have progressive dynamic outlook. We can only say they would bring the Church into new era and new height.

 

[SyroMalankara]

Just want to bring this up as well, since “Deliverance Prayers” are a common occurrence among the folks I’ve interacted with:

Code of Canons of the Latin Church:

Can. 1166 Sacramentals are sacred signs by which effects, especially spiritual effects, are signified in some imitation of the sacraments and are obtained through the intercession of the Church.

Can. 1167 §1. The Apostolic See alone can establish new sacramentals, authentically interpret those already received, or abolish or change any of them.

§2. In confecting or administering sacramentals, the rites and formulas approved by the authority of the Church are to be observed carefully.

Can. 1168 The minister of sacramentals is a cleric who has been provided with the requisite power. According to the norm of the liturgical books and to the judgment of the local ordinary lay persons who possess the appropriate qualities can also administer some sacramentals.

Can. 1169 §1. Those marked with the episcopal character and presbyters permitted by law or legitimate grant can perform consecrations and dedications validly.

§2. Any presbyter can impart blessings except those reserved to the Roman Pontiff or bishops.

§3. A deacon can impart only those blessings expressly permitted by law.

Can. 1170 Blessings, which are to be imparted first of all to Catholics, can also be given to catechumens and even to non-Catholics unless there is a prohibition of the Church to the contrary.

Can. 1171 Sacred objects, which are designated for divine worship by dedication or blessing, are to be treated reverently and are not to be employed for profane or inappropriate use even if they are owned by private persons.

**Can. 1172 §1. No one can perform exorcisms legitimately upon the possessed unless he has obtained special and express permission from the local ordinary.

§2. The local ordinary is to give this permission only to a presbyter who has piety, knowledge, prudence, and integrity of life.**

 

[grannymh]

Reuben J, it’s nice that you are being humble as a member of the CCR. However, I am not a member and I just discovered this document on my own as I am doing my little research. I am trying to understand what is going on and this document is very helpful. I am not rubbing it in anyone’s face. But, I do appreciate that your organization is being humble about it.

However, the document is out and everyone should know about it. It doesn’t have to be kept a secret. I am going to take a look at Corinthians again and read it as the Church is officially interpreting it - with Paul referring to glossolalia. This means he spoke/prayed in glossolalia. Interesting.

I knew there was something going on…:yup:

A reference to an explosion does not mean I made the bomb.

Please show me the direct evidence that Paul spoke/prayed in the word glossolalia. I respectfully suggest that you do not confuse the material world of science with the spiritual world of our souls. .

By the way, what are the exact words of the “Church is officially interpreting it” ?

But, actually, there is nothing new here. Once the Church has been rejuvenated the organization will be closed.

In other words, the Holy Spirit will be removed from Sacred Scripture.

 

[Abba]

Please show me the direct evidence that Paul spoke/prayed in the word glossolalia. I respectfully suggest that you do not confuse the material world of science with the spiritual world of our souls. .

Paul, nevertheless, does not deny that a charism may be useful solely for the person who has received it. Such is the case with speaking in tongues, which, in this respect, is different from the gift of prophecy.[16]…

[16]“Whoever speaks in a tongue builds himself up, but whoever prophesies builds up the Church” (I Cor 14:4). The Apostle does not reject the gift of glossolalia, a charism of prayer useful for the personal relationship with God, and he recognizes it as an authentic charism, although not directly having a communal benefit: “I give thanks to God that I speak in tongues more than any of you, but in the Church I would rather speak five words with my mind, so as to instruct others also, than ten thousand words in a tongue” (I Cor 14:18-19).

In other words, the Holy Spirit will be removed from Sacred Scripture.

Do you really think that is what I could possibly mean?

 

[grannymh]

Please show me the direct evidence that Paul spoke/prayed in the word glossolalia. I respectfully suggest that you do not confuse the material world of science with the spiritual world of our souls. .

Answer in post 65

Paul, nevertheless, does not deny that a charism may be useful solely for the person who has received it. Such is the case with speaking in tongues, which, in this respect, is different from the gift of prophecy.[16]…

[16]“Whoever speaks in a tongue builds himself up, but whoever prophesies builds up the Church” (I Cor 14:4). The Apostle does not reject the gift of glossolalia, a charism of prayer useful for the personal relationship with God, and he recognizes it as an authentic charism, although not directly having a communal benefit: “I give thanks to God that I speak in tongues more than any of you, but in the Church I would rather speak five words with my mind, so as to instruct others also, than ten thousand words in a tongue” (I Cor 14:18-19).

Now, I see the words: “I give thanks to God that I speak in tongues more than any of you …”

I do not see the words: “I give thanks to God that I speak in glossolalia more than any of you…”

I did see these words “The Apostle does not reject the gift of glossolalia,” Could it be that you assume that because the apostle does not reject the gift of glossolalia, this automatically means that Paul speaks in glossolalia? No wonder that many, not all, Catholics have such a hard time understanding the Catholic Charismatic Renewal.

 

[grannymh]

But, actually, there is nothing new here. Once the Church has been rejuvenated the organization will be closed. The recognition of the gifts will be integrated with the Church life. I understand this as being truly a rejuvenation, not anything new.

Clarification of my position is below.
There is a common sense error in the statement : “But, actually, there is nothing new here. Once the Church has been rejuvenated the organization will be closed.”

Common sense should say that the Holy Spirit is the heart of the Catholic Charismatic Renewal. What is missing is the imagining of what happens to the Holy Spirit.
The statement continues: “The recognition of the gifts will be integrated with the Church life. I understand this as being truly a rejuvenation, not anything new.”

Recognition of the gifts is good. But what has happened to the recognition of the Giver of the gifts? No problem. His organization will be closed.

 

[Abba]

grannymh,

Did you get a little ticked-off when I countered your statement that everyone can speak glossolalia? I just deduced this would not make spiritual sense. Then I just so happen to watch a video of who may be the first canonized saint member of the CCR, Padre Emiliano Tardiff, and he states clearly that not everyone will receive the gift. So he confirms my understanding, it just makes sense. Sorry if it upsets you.

+++

1 Corinthians 12:12-27
One Body but Many Parts
12 There is one body, but it has many parts. But all its many parts make up one body. It is the same with Christ. 13 We were all baptized by one Holy Spirit. And so we are formed into one body. It didn’t matter whether we were Jews or Gentiles, slaves or free people. We were all given the same Spirit to drink. 14 So the body is not made up of just one part. It has many parts.

15 Suppose the foot says, “I am not a hand. So I don’t belong to the body.” By saying this, it cannot stop being part of the body. 16 And suppose the ear says, “I am not an eye. So I don’t belong to the body.” By saying this, it cannot stop being part of the body. 17 If the whole body were an eye, how could it hear? If the whole body were an ear, how could it smell? 18 God has placed each part in the body just as he wanted it to be. 19 If all the parts were the same, how could there be a body? 20 As it is, there are many parts. But there is only one body.

21 The eye can’t say to the hand, “I don’t need you!” The head can’t say to the feet, “I don’t need you!” 22 In fact, it is just the opposite. The parts of the body that seem to be weaker are the ones we can’t do without. 23 The parts that we think are less important we treat with special honor. The private parts aren’t shown. But they are treated with special care. 24 The parts that can be shown don’t need special care. But God has put together all the parts of the body. And he has given more honor to the parts that didn’t have any. 25 In that way, the parts of the body will not take sides. All of them will take care of one another. 26 If one part suffers, every part suffers with it. If one part is honored, every part shares in its joy.

27 You are the body of Christ. Each one of you is a part of it.

 

[grannymh]

grannymh,

Did you get a little ticked-off when I countered your statement that everyone can speak glossolalia?

Nope.

Don’t recall when I said “everyone can speak glossolalia.” If you say I did, then I am in the wrong and do not belong on this thread.

Glossolalia, according to science, is not a speaking language. If you really want to know – since being a human is part of "everyone can speak glossolalia – I cannot speak glossolalia. That is a good thing because there is nothing more that I can add to this thread.

 

[Abba]

Nope.

Don’t recall when I said “everyone can speak glossolalia.” If you say I did, then I am in the wrong and do not belong on this thread.

Ah, it’s that we are both posting on the other thread on speaking in tongues from 2013 that was recently rehashed and that is where you made the statement.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=14173458&postcount=28

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=14173458#post14173458

Glossolalia, according to science, is not a speaking language. If you really want to know – since being a human is part of "everyone can speak glossolalia – I cannot speak glossolalia. That is a good thing because there is nothing more that I can add to this thread.

I see. You are trying to say that this thread is all gibberish. That’s sad.

Actually, I am in a learning mode here and you are obviously not. So, I hope you find another thread that is not full of gibberish.

Actually, glossolalia is not gibberish. It is a manifestation of the Holy Spirit.

You are feeling attacked by my little research here and well, sometimes we read things we really don’t want to read. You don’t like the idea of the CCR being closed and instead of discussing it, you try to ridicule me. That’s no way to discuss.

I understand how members of the CCR may feel attacked by a statement regarding closing down the CCR. But, the CCR is not independent of the Catholic Church and the last thing the Holy Spirit intents is to establish another church on the sidelines of the Catholic Church. And when people start stating that they are their own authority, and behave as if they have some independent power outside of the hierarchy of the Church, that calls for bishops to guide the organization. It is not that the organization itself is a problem (it was recognized by the Pope) but it is some members who lack understanding that somehow think they are above the bishops. It’s not just that the bishops have been unwelcoming - I think there was a tango dance.

There is an important Cardinal (? from Germany - he passed away - I can look up the name later - oh, I just remembered - Suenes) who wrote about it’s closure and Pope Francis in an address which I linked to, I don’t know what language he was speaking on the link I provided, but you can certainly find an English version some place; quotes this Cardinal’s statement. The Pope addressing members of the Catholic Renewal at the Vatican; says that the CCR is a current that is going thru the Church - it has no founder. I understand the hierarchy is letting it run its course and let it rejuvenate and renovate and integrate it into the life of the Church. Again, the last thing the Holy Spirit wants is to create more division, to the contrary, I think this manifestation is to serve to unite so we can all be one flock under one sheppherd.

The Church will not allow a mini-church to be established within the Church.

 

[Abba]

On another matter…

Reuben J, perhaps you can help me to better understand the Gifts of the Holy Spirit and how it all works. Now, there are seven:

CC:

1831 The seven gifts of the Holy Spirit are wisdom, understanding, counsel, fortitude, knowledge, piety, and fear of the Lord. They belong in their fullness to Christ, Son of David. They complete and perfect the virtues of those who receive them. They make the faithful docile in readily obeying divine inspirations.

Let your good spirit lead me on a level path.
For all who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God . . . If children, then heirs, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ.

1. Wisdom
2. Understanding
3. Counsel
4. Fortitude
   5.Knowledge
5. Piety
6. Fear of the Lord.

And these are the one in Isaiah but the Church also notes Piety:

and the spirit of the Lord shall rest upon him,
the spirit of wisdom and understanding,
the spirit of counsel and might,
the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the Lord.

But, these are the ones we receive at baptism and the charisms are rooted in these Gifts. So, the charisms are outer manifestations of these gifts.** Does this mean that those that have not been baptized do not have these gifts and so cannot have the charisms that correspond to each gift?**

Update: Just to note, it seems as though everyone can get all the charisms as they are rooted on the gifts received at baptism - Jesus has them all to their fullness. But, the one given needs to be developed and others may manifest themselves which would also need to be developed - if they manifest. For example, Padre Emiliano Tardiff, first received the charism of healing, and he says he went on developing this charism by utilizing it, and others manifested themselves like glossolalia and xenoglossia. But, its all possible, but it depends on the individual.

Also, I want to correct my comment about my cousin going to CCR meetings Padre Emiliano Tardiff was leading. They go to meetings in Santiago. The priest was in CCR in Santo Domingo and previous to CCR he served at a parish near Santiago for abut 17 years; but when he was in CCR it was in Santo Domingo.

 

[DebChris]

Praying in tongues is an outward manifestation of the Holy Spirit. St. Paul calls it the least of the gifts.
There are some non-Catholic churches that look for glossolalia as a mistaken sign that person has been “saved.” Yet nowhere in Scripture did Christ say that only those who could read or speak in tongues were saved. What he said when he healed an individual was “Your faith has saved you.” God is more concerned about a person’s inward disposition than outward appearances or signs. Yet we do know that signs do follow those who do believe. One person may have the gift of healing, another the gift of prophecy, and other the speaking in tongues.
If I speak a language that you do not understand, it will of course sound like gibberish. Which is why, in the assembly, it is important that there also be somebody who can interpret what is spoken. What is often spoken is a prophecy. I do need to define prophecy here, as not foretelling the future. God speaks through the prophet. It is generally a word of encouragement.
As already mentioned, the Catholic Charismatic Renewal has submitted to the magisterium of the Roman Catholic Church. It has the blessing of the Papacy. All prophecy is submitted to discernment to ensure it remains in line with Catholic teaching.