Is St. Paul greater than Jesus?

[Steven_Merten]

Shibboleth:

Lutheran’s also believe that one must follow the commandments of God. We just do not believe that we are justified by following them.

Hello Shibboleth,

Can we agree on this statement?

The way people go to heaven is through Jesus, the reason people go to heaven is because they love God and love for God is accomplished through free from the will of God obedience to the will of God.

NIV 1JO 5:3

This is love for God: to obey his commands. And his commands are not burdensome.NIV JOH 14:15

**“If you love me, you will obey what I command.” **

**NIV JOH 14:23 **

Jesus replied, “If anyone loves me, he will obey my teaching. My Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him. He who does not love me will not obey my teaching. These words you hear are not my own; they belong to the Father who sent me.”

**NAB JOH 12:47 **

"If anyone hears my words and does not keep them, I am not the one to condemn him, for I did not come to condemn the world but to save it. Whoever rejects me and does not accept my words already has his judge, namely, the word I have spoken - it is that which will condemn him on the last day. For I have not spoken on my own; no, the Father who sent me has commanded me what to say and how to speak. Since I know that his commandment means eternal life, whatever I say is spoken just as he instructed me."

NAB JOH 14:21

"He who obeys the commandments he has from me is the man who loves me; and he who loves me will be loved by my Father. I too will love him and reveal myself to him."

NAB REV 2:26

“To the one who wins the victory, who keeps to my ways till the end, I will give authority over the nations - the same authority I received from my Father. He shall rule them with a rod of iron and shatter them like crockery; and I will give him the morning star.” NAB REV 2:22

"I mean to cast her down on a bed of pain; her companions in sin I will plunge into intense suffering unless they repent of their sins with her, and her children I will put to death. Thus shall all the churches come to know that I am the searcher of hearts and minds, and that I will give each of you what your conduct deserves."Peace in Christ,
Steven Merten
www.ILOVEYOUGOD.com

 

[Shibboleth]

Of course faith expresses itself through love.

 

[Xavier]

Am I the only one who believes the bible is the inspired inerrant word of God?
Pauls’ letters being in the bible are Gods (not Pauls’) inerrant word.

 

[Strider]

First, thank you all. There is much information here and I apreciate it. Keep it coming if you have more.

Shibboleth & Steve Merten: Thanks for the respectful discussion of Lutheran theology. A frank, respectful exchange is always good.

ahimsaman72: I’ll give you an example. I exchanged several e-mails with a fellow from a small, non-denominational church in So. Carilina. During the exchange, he quoted Trent 5 times, St. Paul 12 times and Jesus 0 times.
I quoted Jesus 9 times and St. Paul 1 time
The topic of debate was the Catholic Eucharist.
And thanks for your (name removed by moderator)ut.

fuloftruth and whowantsumadebo: Great stuff, as was Faithful 2 Rome. p90 & Gottle of Geer, thank you.

The hint I began with is that some Fundamentalists Evangelicals consider that St. Paul (and I know they never use the “St.” part) was the first writer of the new law, and that Jesus operated under the Mosaic Law because he did not begin the new covenant until the Crucifixion and Resurrection. A lot of what all of you have said adds to this, fills in some gaps and makes good sense.
God bless all.​

Heart of Jesus, formed by the Holy Spirit in the womb of the Virgin Mother, have mercy on us

 

[Strider]

Xavier:

Am I the only one who believes the bible is the inspired inerrant word of God?
Pauls’ letters being in the bible are Gods (not Pauls’) inerrant word.

Of course, St. Paul’s words are the inspired word of God. But Jesus is God. In quoting Scripture to support a point of argument, I just wondered why people from some denominations seem to intentionally avoid quoting Jesus - also and doubly - the inspired Word of God.

God bless

---

Heart of Jesus, formed by the Holy Spirit in the womb of the Virgin Mother, have mercy on us

 

[Steven_Merten]

Strider:

The hint I began with is that some Fundamentalists Evangelicals consider that St. Paul was the first writer of the new law, and that Jesus operated under the Mosaic Law because he did not begin the new covenant until the Crucifixion and Resurrection. A lot of what all of you have said adds to this, fills in some gaps and makes good sense.
God bless all.

A Protestant minister once asked me, “Are you saved?”. I turned and asked, “What must I do to share in everlasting life?” He came up with an answer that is not in the bible; “Accept Jesus as your personal saviour.” I responded, “No! What is the perfect answer to this question? What was Jesus answer to this question?”

**NAB MATTHEW 19:16 **
“Teacher, what good must I do to possess everlasting life?” He answered, "Why do you question me about what is good? There is One who is good. If you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments."
The Protestant minister told me that Jesus taught for three years but after Christ died His teaching was obsoleted in their eyes. Now they use their interpetation of St. Paul’s post ressurection writings in which, as they see it, Christ’s teaching of obedience and good works are out and St. Paul’s “faith only” is needed to go to heaven.

St. Paul would role over in his grave if he ever knew how many Protestants were disbelieving in Jesus’ biblical teachings due to confusion over his (St. Paul’s) writings.

How do we believe in Jesus except by doing what He told us to do? Do not be decieved by those who tell you not to believe in what Jesus taught.

NAB JOH 8:31
**“If you live according to my teaching, you are truly my disciples; then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.”

**

NAB JOH 3:36

Whoever believes in the Son has life eternal. Whoever disobeys the Son will not see life, but must endure the wrath of God.NAB MAR 1:15

Reform your lives and believe in the gospel!

NAB LUK 9:35

Then from the cloud came a voice which said, “This is my Son, my Chosen One. Listen to him.”​

**NAB ACTS 3:22

For Moses said: The Lord God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among your own kinsmen: you shall listen to him in everything he says to you. Anyone who does not listen to that prophet shall be ruthlessly cut off from his people. **​

NAB JOH 12:44

Jesus proclaimed aloud: “Whoever puts faith in me believes not so much in me as in him who sent me; and whoever looks on me is seeing him who sent me. I have come to the world as its light, to keep anyone who **believes **in me from remaining in the dark. If anyone hears my words and does not keep them, I am not the one to condemn him, for I did not come to condemn the world but to save it. Whoever rejects me and does not accept my words already has his judge, namely, the word I have spoken it is that which will condemn him on the last day. For I have not spoken on my own; no, the Father who sent me has commanded me what to say and how to speak. Since I know that his commandment means eternal life, whatever I say is spoken just as he instructed me.” Peace in Christ,
Steven Merten
www.ILOVEYOUGOD.com

 

[ahimsaman72]

Steven Merten:

A Protestant minister once asked me, “Are you saved?”. I turned and asked, “What must I do to share in everlasting life?” He came up with an answer that is not in the bible; “Accept Jesus as your personal saviour.” I responded, “No! What is the perfect answer to this question? What was Jesus answer to this question?”

some of this is about terminology, Steven. when he says “accept Jesus as your personal saviour”, he would be referring to Scriptures such as John 1:12, “But as many as received him to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on His name.” and Rev. 3:20, “Behold, I stand at the door and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come into him and will sup with him, and he with me.” His phrase, “accept Jesus…” is just a short answer for this.

The Protestant minister told me that Jesus taught for three years but after Christ died His teaching was obsoleted in their eyes. Now they use their interpetation of St. Paul’s post ressurection writings in which, as they see it, Christ’s teaching of obedience and good works are out and St. Paul’s “faith only” is needed to go to heaven.

this “minister” needs theological training.

St. Paul would role over in his grave if he ever knew how many Protestants were disbelieving in Jesus’ biblical teachings due to confusion over his (St. Paul’s) writings.

How do we believe in Jesus except by doing what He told us to do? Do not be decieved by those who tell you not to believe in what Jesus taught.

Paul would roll over in his grave to see all people from all walks of life, whether protestant or catholic misconstrue his teachings. I agree about doing what Jesus told us to do. He told us to keep the commandments. Absolutely. He also told us many other things, i.e. love your neighbor, blessed are the merciful…etc. etc. Anyone who denies the teachings of Christ, let him be anathema. I agree about deception. There’s far too much of it in Christian circles - catholic and protestant.

 

[Shibboleth]

How do we believe in Jesus except by doing what He told us to do? Do not be deceived by those who tell you not to believe in what Jesus taught.

Now I am going to be a bit strict on terminology. “Belief” and “Faith” are not equals. One can certainly believe in Jesus and not do what we are told to do. As James points out even Demons believe in Jesus.

Faith is different – If someone has faith they will inevitably and unequivocally follow the path that he has set out for us. It is impossible for good trees not to bear good fruit and it is impossible for bad trees not to bear bad fruit.

We must keep in mind though that although we will follow the path that Jesus set out for us, we are imperfect and will stumble to the side from time to time.

 

[Strider]

Originally posted by Steven Merten
The Protestant minister told me that Jesus taught for three years but after Christ died His teaching was obsoleted in their eyes. Now they use their interpetation of St. Paul’s post ressurection writings in which, as they see it, Christ’s teaching of obedience and good works are out and St. Paul’s “faith only” is needed to go to heaven.

This is the kind of thing I was expecting more of in this thread. It’s what I read from a former Evangelical, now Catholic.
The preacher may need retraining as ahimsaman72 suggested, or maybe he’s just stating the teachings of his denomination.
God bless

 

[Exporter]

fullOFtruth, I agree totally with you. You mentioned the Church of Christ. I used a Church of Christ site for maybe 2 months and found they are very close minded. Yes they start out by saying…how can I prove the Catholic wrong. I was banned from that site about 2 weeks ago. After I got tired of repetedly answered the same questions over - and - over. When I stopped answering I was banned.

I believe the address is
churchofchristdiscussions.com/yabb/YaBB.cgi?board=Textual;action=display;num=1086394458;start=15

You may have to only use up to .com , the last part may be for my banning info.:tiphat:

 

[Steven_Merten]

Strider:

Originally posted by Steven Merten
The Protestant minister told me that Jesus taught for three years but after Christ died His teaching was obsoleted in their eyes. Now they use their interpetation of St. Paul’s post ressurection writings in which, as they see it, Christ’s teaching of obedience and good works are out and St. Paul’s “faith only” is needed to go to heaven.

This is the kind of thing I was expecting more of in this thread. It’s what I read from a former Evangelical, now Catholic.
The preacher may need retraining as ahimsaman72 suggested, or maybe he’s just stating the teachings of his denomination.
God bless

Hello Strider,

The minister in my story was Pentecostal Assemblies of God preacher. Is this also the Evangelical denomination of the person to which you are referring too?

Peace in Christ,
Steven Merten
www.ILOVEYOUGOD.com

 

[Steve_M]

p90:

I don’t understand how your response is applicable to what I’ve written.

~Matt

You say Romans and Galatians clearly outline the topic of justification. I’m point out that that’s not entirely correct. Thet outlines it, but it’s only clear if you understand who he’s writing to and why he’s writing. If it were completely clear to everyone, then there would be no denominational differences about the doctrine of justification.

All of Paul’s writings should be read in the context of first century Palestine or Europe, but too many people read them in the context of sixteenth century Europe, or 21st century America. Not reading them in the correct context, somewhat obscures their meaning.

 

[Shibboleth]

Steven Merten:

Hello Strider,

The minister in my story was Pentecostal Assemblies of God preacher. Is this also the Evangelical denomination of the person to which you are referring too?

Peace in Christ,
Steven Merten
www.ILOVEYOUGOD.com

In all fairness most most protestants do not have much in common with Pentacostals. I will not say much more about them than that so that my comments stay at a Christian level.

 

[SP38]

Steven Merten:

… “No! What is the perfect answer to this question? What was Jesus answer to this question?”

**NAB MATTHEW 19:16 **“Teacher, what good must I do to possess everlasting life?” He answered, "Why do you question me about what is good? There is One who is good. If you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments."

---

Ok, but continue reading… the man said he kept the commandments and asked what else was there for him to do.

Jesus said " If you want to be perfect,go,sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me." vs 21

So, you can keep the commandements, but that is not the only thing Jesus wants. Following Jesus and accepting HIM as the way, the truth and the life… He wants you to follow HIM. Accept HIM.

NOTHING YOU DO WILL SAVE YOU .Otherwise, what is the Point of Jesus coming??? He came to SAVE the world.

As far as Paul, NO, he is not greater than Jesus. I see him as the “Detail man” The nitty gritty, a trench worker, converting souls for Christ. Teaching,uplifing, admonishing, encouraging those about how life as a Christian should be lived. He gets quoted because of this. All throughout the gospels, Jesus is teaching,loving, being an example. But Jesus is God. Paul is not. Jesus came to die for our sins. He came to bridge the gap between God and man, the great divide caused by Adam and Eve disobeying God.

Paul was converted. Jesus spoke to him.

The Holy Spirit inspired him to teach and bring souls to Jesus.

My question would be “Why don’t Catholics quote Paul more often? Is there some theological problems with his writings?”

Like I said in a previous thread. The only thing I remember about Paul from 12 years of Catholic school is “The Conversion of Saul to Paul”. Doesn’t seem right. Can’t ignore all those books written by him.

 

[ahimsaman72]

Shibboleth:

In all fairness most most protestants do not have much in common with Pentacostals. I will not say much more about them than that so that my comments stay at a Christian level.

I agree here. “Pentecostalism” is actually a movement within Christianity. I have been to assembly of God churches and can assure you that they have rather strange theology and practices. my father-in-law is a former pentecostal and we had many, many discussions of which we never could agree on major issues. I’m a southern baptist, by the way.

 

[Strider]

Steven Merten:

Hello Strider,

The minister in my story was Pentecostal Assemblies of God preacher. Is this also the Evangelical denomination of the person to which you are referring too?

Steven,
I dont think so. The actual discussion arose from a page of theirs I saw on the web entitled, “The Animated Crucifix.” It’s all about why you mightlopse your soul if you watch The Passion of the Christ

letgodbetrue.com/TodaysWorld/passion.htm

The whole thing is virulently anti-Catholic, but our exchange was fairly courteous, until he dropped me like a hot potato.
Their basic web site is just the let god be true part of the URL above. It’s kind of hard to tell by loioking at just what they are, except anti-Catholic. That was what prompted me to contact them in the first place.

=SP38
Catholics, at least the ones I know - including me - quote St. Paul plenty. Why wouldn’t we; he’s brilliant, he’s Catholic and he wrote volumes (as has been illustrated in this thread above).
But, if it comes down to using a quote from St. Paul or one from Jesus to prove the same point, and I could only use one, I’d use Jesus every time. My original question was, why do many protestants of Fundamentalist and Evangelical leanings, choose St. Paul in the same circumstances.
But I agree with most of your good comments.
God bless

 

[p90]

Steve M:

You say Romans and Galatians clearly outline the topic of justification. I’m point out that that’s not entirely correct. Thet outlines it, but it’s only clear if you understand who he’s writing to and why he’s writing. If it were completely clear to everyone, then there would be no denominational differences about the doctrine of justification.

Thanks for clarifying. I agree with the thrust of what you’ve written. Justification in Romans and Galatians can be understood if the context is understood.

~Matt

 

[Steven_Merten]

SP38:

NOTHING YOU DO WILL SAVE YOU .Otherwise, what is the Point of Jesus coming??? He came to SAVE the world.

Hello SP38,

Can we agree on this statement?

The way people go to heaven is through Jesus, the reason people go to heaven is because they love God and love for God is accomplished through free from the will of God obedience to the will of God.

NAB JOH 14:21

"He who obeys the commandments he has from me is the man who loves me; and he who loves me will be loved by my Father. I too will love him and reveal myself to him."

NAB MAT 25:31
“Then the king will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father. Inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, a stranger and you welcomed me, naked and you clothed me, ill and you cared for me, in prison and you visited me.’ Then the righteous will answer him and say, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink? When did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you? When did we see you ill or in prison, and visit you?’ And the king will say to them in reply, ‘Amen, I say to you, whatever you did for one of these least brothers of mine, you did for me.’ Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you accursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, a stranger and you gave me no welcome, naked and you gave me no clothing, ill and in prison, and you did not care for me.’ Then they will answer and say, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or ill or in prison, and not minister to your needs?’ He will answer them, ‘Amen, I say to you, what you did not do for one of these least ones, you did not do for me.’ **And these will go off to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.” **
**NAB JOH 12:47 **

"If anyone hears my words and does not keep them, I am not the one to condemn him, for I did not come to condemn the world but to save it. Whoever rejects me and does not accept my words already has his judge, namely, the word I have spoken - it is that which will condemn him on the last day. For I have not spoken on my own; no, the Father who sent me has commanded me what to say and how to speak. Since I know that his commandment means eternal life, whatever I say is spoken just as he instructed me."

NAB REV 2:22
“I mean to cast her down on a bed of pain; her companions in sin I will plunge into intense suffering unless they repent of their sins with her, and her children I will put to death. Thus shall all the churches come to know that I am the searcher of hearts and minds, and that I will give each of you what your conduct deserves.”

Peace in Christ,
Steven Merten
www.ILOVEYOUGOD.com

 

[francisca]

fulloftruth:

Hello Strider,

You are very observant. Jesus tells us, “If you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments”. The Protestants hate this answer. They think St. Paul teaches works are out and now “Faith alone” is in. How can Jesus be wrong?

The misunderstanding is that St. Paul is debating the law of circumcision and not the Law of God’s commandments. St. Peter warns us to be very careful when reading St. Paul’s writings. Martin Luther and the Protestants stumble right past St. Peter’s warnings to base the foundation of the Protestant faith on their misunderstandings of St. Paul’s writings.

It’s true that those who “does the commandment” is the one saved. My question is, can we do the commandment perfectly ? If we can, then we do not need Jesus !

Should we obey the commandment, God does not need to send Jesus at all. What for? The Israelite obeys the commandment. Why would God send Jesus for? To save Israel from what?

Instead Paul says that those wo tries to do the law fails, but those who does not do anything receive salvation through God’s grace

Romans 10:20
And Isaiah is very bold and says, “I WAS FOUND BY THOSE WHO DID NOT SEEK ME,
I BECAME MANIFEST TO THOSE WHO DID NOT ASK FOR ME.”

Read Roman 2:13 then Romans 3:21 then Romans 8:5-9&28 then

Romans 6:16
Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness?

Romans 6:18
and having been freed from sin, you became slaves of righteousness.

Romans 6:19
I am speaking in human terms because of the weakness of your flesh. For just as you presented your members as slaves to impurity and to lawlessness, resulting in further lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves to righteousness, resulting in sanctification.

Romans 6:20
For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness.

Jesus came to save us. What does it mean according to Paul? It means that we become “slaves to righteousness”. When we believe in Jesus salvation plan, we become “God’s children”. Our MASTER is LIGHT not darkness anymore, Our FATHER God, and not sinful flesh anymore, and therefore we do good things instead of bad. And this is how we fulfill the commandment : if we believe, then we do what we believe. This is out of God’s Grace, so we pray Help me God. If it were our own effort then we are saved by ourselves.

 

[francisca]

[continue]

Paul talks about “our will” in Romans 7:17-25.

Free will? Yes we still have free will, but the most important is who is OUR MASTER.

Romans 6:16
Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of SIN resulting in death, or of OBEDIENCE resulting in RIGHTEOSNESS ?

In this verse Paul says that “OBEDIENCE” is Jesus. We become righteous if we obey “OBEDIENCE”.

So we will exercise our “free will” in according to WHO OUR MASTER is.

Additonal :

If we say that “the work of the law” is “Mosaic Law” then how about “works of liturgy”? If we use “liturgy as law” then sure it is also “works of the law”. But if we use “liturgy” as means to worship God, without any condemnation, then it is Grace. Because Grace does not come with condemnations. Grace frees us from condemnations. Therefore God spoke to Isiah : I do not want you sacrifice because your sacrifice is evil.

If we try to obtain righteousness through the liturgy, then it is all wrong. Jesus and Jesus alone is the only source of our righteousness. And because of this then we can have the good liturgy. Not the other way round : we quarrel about liturgy in order that God would approve the most righteous liturgy… this can’t be the case. This is an example only.

May God bless us all.