Is sterilization ok if a future pregnancy could end up with the death of a mother?

[setter]

NEVER are we thinking, reasoning adults who may have reached the conclusion that while ABC or sterilization is the less desirable and even sinful option, more children just would not be possible for us to handle, and we are not willing to destroy our marriages, thus shortchanging and possibly destroying the children we already have, with total abstinence. Because for some of us, that would be the very real consequences of total abstinence.

A conclusion based on conjecture. Instead of all the “what if’s” of negative consequances, why not focus on the “what if’s” of surrendering to God’s will, with a well formed and informed formation of conscience, and “taste an see” the goodness of doing god’s will, as he supplies all your needs according to His riches and glory?

“And my God will supply every need of yours according to his riches in glory in Christ Jesus.” **Phillipians 4: 19 **

“May you be strengthened with all power, according to his glorious might, for all endurance and patience with joy, …” Colossians 1: 11

It seems that in these discussions, the unitive aspect of marital sexuality does not get enough respect. The Church herself says that the procreative and unitive aspects are EQUAL, yet nearly every discussion I see on this topic subjugates the unitive to the procreative and calls procreation the PRIMARY end of marriage. Where on the spectrum does preserving the marriage for the good of both spouses and the well-being of the children who already exist fall? Some people just cannot balance all these things in the way the Church prescribes. That makes us fallen sinners, just like everyone else in the Church from the Pope on down. What I don’t get is why this particular sin is seen as so much more serious than so many others. These discussions lend a lot of credence to the accusation that the Church, and Catholics in general, are obsessed with sexual sin to the point that even other mortal sins seem lessened in seriousness comparatively.

ABC is grave sin, if not mortal sin. Period. No amount of comparing out, isolating sin or generalizing sin choices will change this. No way around it. God does not call us to the impossible, but by His grace, the seemingly human impossible becomes possible, as we take up our cross, die to self, and follow him.

I know my reasoning will be condemned, but I see it as a much greater sin to bring children into the world that we cannot adequately care for, or to abort them, or to destroy marriages that children need for their well-being, than to prevent conception, whatever the means. Of course the Church has to say that this is never allowed, but sometimes imperfect humans HAVE to choose the lesser of two evils.

It is not a lesser of two evils. There is a morally licit way to choose …again, putting more limits on the infinite grace of God to follow Him wherever this may lead. Take the martyrs for the faith as an example.

You can tell us over and over again that we should grow beyond that point in our faith and put it all in God’s hands, but some people just are not capable of that. Trust me, we do see it as a failing on our part, and wish we could live without failing in that way. We KNOW we are not living up to what is being asked of us. Increasing our pain does nothing to help us, especially in situations where permanent, irreversible actions have already been taken.

As long as one keeps telling themself this, they prevent turning away from self-relieance to God-reliance, Suggestion: Try it, put God to the “test”, see if He comes through.

And, just in the interest of total honesty here, many of us harbor serious, lingering doubts as to whether this is a mortal sin at all. Usery was at one time condemned by the Church…that teaching changed. Slavery was at one time tolerated by the Church, and slaves instructed to accept and maintain their proper place…that teaching changed. You can tell me I am not Catholic if I believe this…but that won’t change the fact that I am Catholic.

This is simply a rationalization for continuing in sin or refusing to accept the fullnes of God’s love and forgiveness through the blood of the Cross. Don’t let the devil get a foothold with planting confusion, ambiguity, self-condemnation and doubts over God’s pure and holy love for you.

 

[mnmom]

Bluerose

Could you and your BIL Wife in heaven pray for me too. I am about one month along in my pregnancy with our fifth child. Because of medical issues my pregnancy is in the high risk category. My husband is not very accepting of this pregnancy and thought number four was our last. We used Creighton Model NFP for preventing pregnancy for health reasons on my part and now my husband feels I betrayed him because I became prenant on a supposedly infertile day. This has never happened to me before. My other pregnancies were all a result of the fertile time window and we knew the possibility of becoming pregnant. My husband wanted a vasectomy and I did not. Now he says I bet I wish he had it done. No I do not. It is a scary time for me but I need everyone’s prayers for a healthy outcome of this pregnancy and for my health also to be around to care for our children, ages eight, five, four and 1 1/2.

 

[setter]

I just feel crucified for my sin. I talked to a Priest about the whole thing. I went to confession. I was just trying to protect my wife. I’m giving up on the church. Apparently, only certain people are righteous. I’m ready to throw the towel in. I can’t be “good” enough for the Catholic Church.

No one is ever “good enough” to be a disciple of Jesus Christ. Jesus came to call sinners to repentence, not the self-righteous who are hard of heart. Many catholics facing the limitations of their human endurance and and strength, have never been told that that is exactly the norm of the Christian life where God simply wants us to turn to Him in childlike trust and cast out cares upon Him …then God can take over and supply all the graces needed to be faithful followers of Jesus Christ. It is that simple, and frightening …but true.

Here is a helpful article link: catholicmom.com/nfp0304.htm

 

[aurora77]

DuskyJewel–I think you raise a good point. So many people get involved with the ABC debate and have no idea where posters like you are coming from. There does tend to be a lot of animosity in discussions about this particular sin versus other sins.

I can only speak to my past experiences and the regret I feel from having chosen to take the Pill. I didn’t do it for medical reasons–it was purely for birth control. I can’t possibly understand the situation of a couple who face major risks or death from another pregnancy. That’s why I feel it’s so valuable to have posters share their experiences of using NFP only, who have major health problems and can’t risk a pregnancy.

That being said, the reality that artificial contraception is a sin cannot be whitewashed. It’s sinful, it’s wrong, we can rationalize as best we can, but it’s still a sin. But, in today’s society, ABC or vasectomies or other sterilizations methods are so commonplace, it can be hard to understand the Church’s teaching (I know it was for me).

 

[tamccrackine]

I’ve read through this and I’m amazed at the lack of charity from some that are very militant NFP’ers. Trust me, I am a promoter for NFP so I’m not about to suggest someone do something that is against the Church, but come on people. I even wrote a thread about a year and a half ago and my question was to talk to a priest that told my best friend to go ahead and allow her DH to get a vasectomy. Not for medical reasons but because she was turning 40 and didn’t want any more children. I got yelled at by some of you militants screaming at me that it’s between her, her husband and her priest. And the same people are yelling at the OP, yelling at others that have shared their testimonies (to the poor guy that is now hurt and saying he’s leaving the Church… man do I totally understand what he’s saying on some occassions!) Here’s a good scripture to remember: Prov 3:5-6- Trust in the Lord with all your heart and do not rely on your own insight. In all your ways acknowledge him, and he will make straight your paths.

It’s not easy. No one said it was easy, even Christ said it wouldn’t be easy. But hello… people… **“Col 3:16- Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly, as you teach and admonish one another in all wisdom.” ** This says admonish… it doesn’t say crucify.

**Gal 6:2- Bear one another’s burdens, and so fulfill the law of Christ. ** What happened to being brotherly?

I truly feel sorry for the couples that are in this situation. I find myself in this situation right now because I’m pregnant with what my DH says is “our” last. And you know the person that doesn’t want any more always wins that argument. To make matters even more fun, he’s not Catholic. So where does that leave us? I feel for the people struggling. And then to see them reach out to a forum like this and people are crucifying them! No wonder I left CA for awhile… I got tired of seeing the militants crucifying people telling them if they aren’t PERFECT in following the Church, the people are going to hell, sinning, it’s a mortal sin, yada yada yada.

Charity people… charity.

 

[bilop]

As a man, and husband, I don’t understand these men who say this child is, or better be , our last.

Or what? You’ll stop loving your wife? You won’t love your child?

This is incomprehensible to me. Even when I was fallen away and a grievous sinner I could not understand this mindset.

God Bless, especially those of you suffering these difficult pregnancies.

 

[bluerose]

Bluerose

Could you and your BIL Wife in heaven pray for me too. I am about one month along in my pregnancy with our fifth child. Because of medical issues my pregnancy is in the high risk category. My husband is not very accepting of this pregnancy and thought number four was our last. We used Creighton Model NFP for preventing pregnancy for health reasons on my part and now my husband feels I betrayed him because I became prenant on a supposedly infertile day. This has never happened to me before. My other pregnancies were all a result of the fertile time window and we knew the possibility of becoming pregnant. My husband wanted a vasectomy and I did not. Now he says I bet I wish he had it done. No I do not. It is a scary time for me but I need everyone’s prayers for a healthy outcome of this pregnancy and for my health also to be around to care for our children, ages eight, five, four and 1 1/2.

You got it! All right, everyone, all together now… PRAY!!!

BTW, my BIL’s wife’s name was… Hope.

 

[setter]

I’ve read through this and I’m amazed at the lack of charity from some that are very militant NFP’ers.

It’s not easy. No one said it was easy, even Christ said it wouldn’t be easy. But hello… people… **“Col 3:16- Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly, as you teach and admonish one another in all wisdom.” ** This says admonish… it doesn’t say crucify.

Gal 6:2- Bear one another’s burdens, and so fulfill the law of Christ. What happened to being brotherly?

I feel for the people struggling. And then to see them reach out to a forum like this and people are crucifying them! No wonder I left CA for awhile… I got tired of seeing the militants crucifying people telling them if they aren’t PERFECT in following the Church, the people are going to hell, sinning, it’s a mortal sin, yada yada yada.

Charity people… charity.

Rather than self-indulging in a cathartic rant of throwing dirt balls at purported “militants” habitating this thread, could you in all charity example some actual quotes from these “militant” posters so that our sensitivities may be enlightened as to what constitutes judgmental or “crucifying” in your perspective? This seems to be a recurrent issue – when someone simply presents what the Church teaches and moral options regarding the same, the accuations of being insensitive and judgmental all of a sudden seem to abound. Can it be that folks just are coming from a different place of understanding and acceptance and lived life experience?

 

[tamccrackine]

Rather than self-indulging in a cathartic rant of throwing dirt balls at purported “militants” habitating this thread, could you in all charity example some actual quotes from these “militant” posters so that our sensitivities may be enlightened as to what constitutes judgmental or “crucifying” in your perspective? This seems to be a recurrent issue – when someone simply presents what the Church teaches and moral options regarding the same, the accuations of being insensitive and judgmental all of a sudden seem to abound. Can it be that folks just are coming from a different place of understanding and acceptance and lived life experience?

It’s the lack of empathy I’m seeing. You can see it to if you’ve read through this thread so there is no need to point it out. And yes, you’re right, you won’t see if it you’re not on “this side of the fence” with a struggle like this because if someone has lived through a struggle like this, they would be much more empathetic in explaining what the Church teaches and how to actually get through the struggle instead of yelling at the OP or others that are enduring this struggle. It’s like someone telling an alcoholic that not drinking “is simple” so they don’t understand why it’s so hard to understand the rules against ABC. And there are a few comments that have NOT just “simply presents what the Church teaches”.

There is a reason the Church speaks the truth but people don’t need to be so belligerent about it. That’s all I’m saying. I didn’t indulge in some psychosomantic self indulgent rant… trust me, you’d feel it if I was ranting. I made an observation. If you specifically weren’t militant about it, you wouldn’t be offended with what I said.

 

[Ravyn_Guiliani]

I was under the impression that if a priest advised you to do something like this that if it was a sin and his advice was wrong it would be on his head, not yours.
Ravyn

Hi there, I am a Mum with 3 children. My eldest is 6 and when I was giving birth to him I had an epidural. My body reacted badly to it and my blood pressure halved and my son’s heart stopped so I had an emergency C-section to get my son out as quick as possible. My second child is 2 years old. I had a second C-Section with him and with the spinal block they give you, my blood pressure was affected so much the anaesthetist said he had never seen anyone like this, but he managed to control my reaction to the drugs for the duration of the C-Section. My third baby is 1 years old. When I had my daughter I again reacted to the spinal block but this time I started to have what is termed a “medical heart attack” reacting to the drugs to numb you. Luckily my daughter was out of the womb and they stopped the operation to stabilize my heart.
Every time my reaction to the anaesthetic has worsened. The doctors told me that there is a large amount of scar tissue and should I have a 4th C-Section it will take about 1 hour to get the baby out and about 1 hour to sew me back up. There is a strong chance I will have another heart attack reacting to the anaesthetic especially since the drugs will be needed to be in my system for such a long time. If the baby is not out and they have to stabilise my heart, the baby could be at risk. If they get the baby out first to avoid the risk, which is what I would want ( I wouldn’t want a dead baby) I could die as they may not be in time to stabilize my heart if they wait for the baby to be born.
There would be a big risk that either one would die. I have discussed with the doctors whether general anaesthetic would be safer but they would not want to do that as it is dangerous for the baby and also I would not be able to tell them when I feel my heart “crush”.

My husband and I have learnt the Creighton Model of NFP which has been difficult as I am still breastfeeding. But this method is not 100% effective and indeed my NFP teacher told me that one of her ladies got pregnant recently on a “safe dry day”

If I have another baby I could die and leave my husband with 4 children and no mother. That would be irresponsible of me. The effect would devastate my family and would ruin the family faith if it happened.

I am 28 years old, married with 3 children. I cannot live a chaste marriage until the menopause. What type of marriage is that? I think it would destroy our marriage. We would be best of friends but not husband and wife anymore. We would loose that bond. I think it is impossible to expect anyone to do that, what no sexual relationship with your husband for maybe 25 years?!

Due to the effect of the anaesthetic I can’t get sterilized but my husband could have a vasectomy and we could aviod any risks. My husband when to our priest. He is not our local priest because we find that most priests are liberal and the churches are empty. We travel to a parish that has a traditional priest and every Mass the Church is overflowing. We have been going there for years. Anyway my husband spoke to Father and he said that under the circumstances, for him to be sterilized, would be fine, there was nothing wrong as the circumstances were exceptional and there was a grave reason for doing it.

But is this what the Church teaches? I understand that if we were to proceed with this we could go to Hell! But on the other hand to expect us to be chaste for the next 25years, is this what a loving God would want and expect? And if we were to fall pregnant and I risk my life what about the responsibility to my family and children?? I have been a traditional Catholic all my life but this teaching flies in the face of reason and is incomprehensible with a loving God.

What should we do?? Any ideas?? Many thanks

 

[seekerz]

May I make a suggestion? Not to infringe on anyone’s freedom of speech, but in the interest of charity…

Wen someone comes with a difficulty such as the OP, especially when the act is a done deal and especially when that person has talked to a priest, could we just confine our comments to promises of prayer, unless we have a similar experience to share?

We all know that sin is sin, but the person’s confessor knows human nature (probably better than any of us due to his vocation) and knows what needs to be said to each person.
If he says the wrong thing, he’s responsible to God. We’re not in the confessional, so I think it’s highly inappropriate based on hearing one side of the story to condemn anything a priest says.

I’ve known priests with highly visible sinful lifestyles e.g alcoholism whose rebuke still carried full effect on those it was directed at, so I have a healthy aversion to criticizing anything regarding someone’s priestly duties.

It seems like any issue surrounding marriage/procreation etc gets people passionate. While that is understandable, it’s not acceptable to pass blanket judgements on people simply because we know the cathechism.

There are many mortal sins and I would daresay the majority of them have nothing whatsoever to do with sex. Yet it always seems like that type of sin gets the most attention and condemnation: is that attitude even Catholic?

 

[blessedtoo]

This was posted by the OP:

What should we do?? Any ideas?? Many thanks

People come to CAF for support, opinion, direction, encouragement, and truth. When folks want prayers, they post in the prayer request threads. When they want suggestions, they ask.

BTW: This particular thread is about sterilization, not sex. However, if you look over the thread topics, you will see that some (not all, not even the majority) of the questions do involve matters of sexuality and morals. People are confused and are looking for answers. It may be that Catholics who are seeking to live a faithful life are the most confused because we hear nothing but silence from the pulpit on Sundays. Should we refrain from providing assistance and just offer prayers? Is that the Catholic thing to do? In fact, we often to both.

 

[sosayi1960]

Unfortunately, to many Catholics have the idea that obeying God in the clear and authoritative teachings of the Church is dependent upon one’s own human strength and limitations. God does not call us to the impossible, though humanly impossible, but promises to give each individual and couple the needed supernatural graces to live the life of holiness that He calls each person to, the call to holiness.

Conversion is an ongoing process. God accepts each indicidual (and couple) right where they are at, but thankfully does not leave us there in our sin and imperfectations. Conversion begins with knowing and accepting what the truth is particular to each individuals situation, and often in fear and trembling surrending our will to His way of discipleship walk with Jesus Christ …that is why Jesus went through all the trouble and human agony to make provision for sinners to repent and be converted and live a life worthy of the Lord.

“All of us have fallen short of the glory of God”. Yes, conversion is an ongoing process. Jesus himself recognized that we all weak. He made us. I think that in our human weakness, He makes us strong. I am concerned that the teachings of the church are the the end all for some people. Though we all strive to follow the teachings of the church, I simply have to believe that our conscious also has to be followed. None of us are worthy of the Lord. There are NO works that we can do to earn eternal life.

 

[mnmom]

Bluerose

Thank you for your prayers. I will ask Hope to intercede for me as well.

 

[LJN21]

I was under the impression that if a priest advised you to do something like this that if it was a sin and his advice was wrong it would be on his head, not yours.
Ravyn

If you don’t know its not your fault but, if you know its bad advice and you do it anyway its still on your head.

 

[LJN21]

For most people sex is such an important part of their marriage and like you, I don’t fully ‘trust’ NFP (or ANY ABC for that matter!!!)…on the rare occassions we have sex, I do feel like I’m taking my life into my hands, I will admit that…despite desperately WANTING another child, I’m terrified…I won’t give you any ‘advice’, because I believe that unless one has ‘been there’, it’s all too easy to talk. But I will pray for you and your family! Take heart, you’re not alone!!!

Anna x

I’m not sure I understand this.

First off NFP is not ABC. How is abstinence artificial?

Secondly wouldn’t you like to know for a fact you can be with your husband on this day and there is no way that you could get pregnant?

If I remember right Creighton is based only off mucus signs. There are other methods that use mucus and other sign to allow you to know exactly when you are fertile. After a while you would know exactly when it was completely safe.

 

[setter]

“All of us have fallen short of the glory of God”. Yes, conversion is an ongoing process. Jesus himself recognized that we all weak. He made us. I think that in our human weakness, He makes us strong. I am concerned that the teachings of the church are the the end all for some people.

…for Catholics, Church teaching in matters of faith and morals is the end all; everything else is personal opinion and not a credible basis to make moral decisions.

Though we all strive to follow the teachings of the church, I simply have to believe that our conscious also has to be followed.

The faithful are responsible to well inform and form their consciences, and will be accountable before God as much. The Church also warns about a false sense of autonomy of conscience that some Catholics use to rationalize divergence from Church teaching and sin choices.

None of us are worthy of the Lord. There are NO works that we can do to earn eternal life.

This we agree on; though faith without works is all but a dead or self-decived faith, so says the bible.

 

[setter]

There are many mortal sins and I would daresay the majority of them have nothing whatsoever to do with sex. Yet it always seems like that type of sin gets the most attention and condemnation: is that attitude even Catholic?

There have been various mystics throughout the ages who has testified that most souls that go to hell go there for sins of the flesh. Checkn out the bible, and see how many times that the NT writers specifically condemn “impurity” as a sin that will deprive one from inhereting the kingdom of God. Take a look around in our western society – does not immodesty and illicit sexual saturation seem to be the norm. Catholics are called to be a light in the present darkness in this world and within the Church.

 

[seekerz]

There have been various mystics throughout the ages who has testified that most souls that go to hell go there for sins of the flesh. Checkn out the bible, and see how many times that the NT writers specifically condemn “impurity” as a sin that will deprive one from inhereting the kingdom of God. Take a look around in our western society – does not immodesty and illicit sexual saturation seem to be the norm. Catholics are called to be a light in the present darkness in this world and within the Church.

Are sins of the flesh* always* sexual in nature? Is impurity always sexual impurity? I won’t deny that there is great sexual impurity today but isn’t there a greater and more widespread lack of respect for God? What about idolatry in the form of materialism? What about the constant seeking of pleasure, novelty and entertainment out of proportion to the seeking of the things of God?

Sexual sin and those associated with reproduction/marriage etc are sins against one’s body, but are those a greater problem (qualitatively or quantitatively) than sins against God Himself?

 

[marybee]

I don’t think anyone has brought this up so I will. Don’t you think that threatened life to mom and baby may be a mitigating circumstance that would severly lessen a person’s culpability. Its like with the sin of masturbation…It is always objectively wrong, but there are circumstances that lessen a person’s will, like stress. I can’t beleive than there is any stress like the fear of death or dying in a person. Just a thought:shrug: