Is suicide wrong?

[Melanie01]

Yes, you may not end the life given to you by God…it is a gift.

Having said that I suffer depression and am having a really rotten patch at the minute, I wish I was dead about every hour for the last couple of weeks, so up the antidepressants and pray that i dont do anything stupid in the meantime.

 

[Mystophilus]

Well … the costs of suicide for starters - both the particularly horrific consequences to those around us, and the more general harms to society as a result of the loss of people to suicide - for example the fact that we lose a highly disproportionate number of young men to it.

Is the individual really responsible to unwillingly prolong his/her life for the benefit of a group which allows his/her life to be so unattractive as to overcome the natural survival instinct?

Secondly the moral and ethical factors that have already been outlined. If you believe life is God’s gift then, barring exceptional circumstances (self-defence of the individual, justifiable war, justifiable death penalty for a state), it really is his to take back as well, in his own time and way.

I am afraid that I am going to have to completely disagree with the idea that the death penalty is ever justifiable, although that is rather off-topic.

Surely, however, if it is a gift, then the individual has been granted possession of his/her life to do with as s/he chooses, which does seem to be the general pattern of our existence.

Are you doing this for a research project or something?

Precisely: I am not trying to talk myself into anything. Were nothing else in my life apparently worthwhile, my Beloved would remain more than enough to justify all of my efforts to stay here.

This is all theory.

 

[Mystophilus]

The Sixth Commandment

Thou Shalt Not Kill.

This includes others and ourselves.

Yet there remain instances in which killing is necessary, particularly in defence of others.

More particularly, I would have said that the wrongness of the act of murder lies in the tyranny of it: the murderer chooses to utterly dominate the victim by determining the remainder of his/her life. No such issue applies to suicide, in which the perpetrator is a willing ‘victim’.

Similarly, if I take my brother’s car without his knowledge and against his will, I have committed a crime of theft. If I take it with his permission, I have committed no crime whatsoever. Obviously, this is the argument for euthanasia, and I think that it bears investigation in relation to suicide.

 

[LilyM]

Is the individual really responsible to unwillingly prolong his/her life for the benefit of a group which allows his/her life to be so unattractive as to overcome the natural survival instinct?

Absolutely - you have responsibilities beyond those to your immediate circle. After all, what did the emergency workers or cleaners or others who have to dispose of your body ever do to you? Or the workers who have to suffer for the fact that you’re not there to do your job? Or the welfare recepients who rely on the taxes you provide to help them in their need?

Surely, however, if it is a gift, then the individual has been granted possession of his/her life to do with as s/he chooses, which does seem to be the general pattern of our existence.

Well, you do have the freedom to do whatever you like with something that is given to you freely - however, you must expect the giver to be P-O’d if you abuse it, and perhaps a punishment if it lies within their power!

If you give your teenager a car, you don’t give it to them for them to smash it up in an accident. If they then went and did so, of course you would consider the circumstances and if they are at fault punish them accordingly.

This is what God does in the case of all sin - as any good judge does, he takes the circumstances of the action into account.

If you take your own life with full knowledge that your life belongs to God, that to take it is a sin, and without circumstances such as mental illness which sufficiently impair your judgement, or other extenuating circumstances, then God will punish you. Just as he would if you took the life of another.

 

[St.Eric]

We take it into our own hands to determine everything that we do. Every choice that we make, even if it is a choice to follow what we believe to be the will of God, is a choice made by us.

This is merely one more of those: why should it be any more offensive than any of the others?

You are exectaly correct! It does fall under the auspesices of our choice to kill ourselves. And, it also falls under the category of an intrinsic evil to take our own life, just like that of adultery, idolatry, envy, etc, etc,. So, yes, objectively it is grave matter to kill yourself. However, what we know today, that most of the time, when one commits suicide, they do not, most likely, meet the 3 conditions of mortal sin- Grave matter, full knowledge, and full consent of the will.

So, in short, suicide is wrong, just like stealing something is always wrong. Is is a mortal sin? Not always.

 

[francisca]

To take matters into our own hands is, according to the bible, a curse. Jeremiah 17:7 “Cursed is man who trust in man’s strength”.

To take matters into our own hands will ommit us from God’s inheritance Jeremiah 17:6. Although we have our choices, some of them does not come from God.

 

[Mystophilus]

Yes, you may not end the life given to you by God…it is a gift.

Having said that I suffer depression and am having a really rotten patch at the minute, I wish I was dead about every hour for the last couple of weeks, so up the antidepressants and pray that i dont do anything stupid in the meantime.

Fish pills.

I know that it sounds strange, but they do work: fish-oil pills containing EHA and DPA, a couple of natural acid compounds, have well-demonstrated effects against depression. Just do not exceed the recommended dosage (usually up to about 1000mg/day).

 

[Mystophilus]

Well, we already have an exception to the rule. I don’t actually agree that Saint Solomonia commited suicide to defend her religious faith but I won’t quibble with you. There are other people, the majority are women, who killed themselves in order not to be sexually violated and they are now venerated as Saints by the Church.

I do not think that these exceptions are what the OP wants to focus on though?

I am looking for every perspective I can find, and that is a very interesting one: the value of chastity exceeds the value of life. Would I be right in guessing that most of these people appeared in A.D. 300-1300 period?

 

[Mystophilus]

Absolutely - you have responsibilities beyond those to your immediate circle. After all, what did the emergency workers or cleaners or others who have to dispose of your body ever do to you? Or the workers who have to suffer for the fact that you’re not there to do your job? Or the welfare recipients who rely on the taxes you provide to help them in their need?

That answer I like!

 

[LilyM]

Fish pills.

I know that it sounds strange, but they do work: fish-oil pills containing EHA and DPA, a couple of natural acid compounds, have well-demonstrated effects against depression. Just do not exceed the recommended dosage (usually up to about 1000mg/day).

I certainly agree that fish oils are excellent for the health in a host of ways, including helping the cholesterol and general brain function, and may actually assist with things like ADHD and depression

 

[Melanie01]

Fish pills.

I know that it sounds strange, but they do work: fish-oil pills containing EHA and DPA, a couple of natural acid compounds, have well-demonstrated effects against depression. Just do not exceed the recommended dosage (usually up to about 1000mg/day).

I all ready take those for heart health and joints, glad they aid the brain as well…there is a very nice conference I am listening to the late Bishop Fulton Sheen called “On suffering” which I am fiunding very consoling.

Being at work for 16 hours a with no sleep for over 24 hours is doing stuff for the brain chemistry as well…got this really sick guy kidneys flogged into action, makes it all worth while…dont let anyone think pneumonia is NOT a killer anymore.

Say a prayer for Bert’s recovery if you have time.

 

[Vigis]

Here please read this article. It would most likely explain the issue the best. God speed.

newadvent.org/cathen/14326b.htm

 

[Zooey]

I’m with those who aren’t quite sure where you’re going with this, but I have known someone who committed suicide; he was my lawyer, it was well over a year ago, and I still am angry with him…I can’t imagine the pain his family is suffering, to this day…
Now, he had cancer, & was terrified of dying in pain. Both his father & an uncle had died of cancer, & he saw it before him as a young person…I am not qualified to know whether that makes a difference or not. I will say, that Your Friendly Neighborhood Methodist here, was only able to deal with this, by praying for his soul. I hope that helped him; I know it helped me.
So, I have a differernt view of suicide than if my own life had never been touched by it…
My opinion:
There are probably circumstances where people are totally nonculpable, like if they are mentally ill.
There are circumstances where it is wrong, but not what Catholics would call mortal sin. I hope & pray that this is the case with J C, & I would ask you, in your kindness, to pray for him & his remaining family.
There are also cases where it is almost certainly a very serious, possibley soul-destroying sin.

In all cases,we are dealing with taking a human life. There is no way out of that, & that is prohibited like any other act of murder. So, it is always a serious matter…
And, Father Ambrose, I personally suspect that in the case you cite, it is fair to assume that this poor woman’s circumstances were so extreme that it would not be a sin at all. Indeed, considering that her little child was in the fire, one might argue that she was leaping into the flames not so much to destroy herself, as to be with him in his suffering, & that would be what made her a saintly woman…I repeat that this is only my opinion, & I would have to re-read the story before I said anything else on that particular subject…

Which leaves us with a set of cases that I have always found particularly troubling: What about the case of a person who is being tortured, to try to extract information that might cause death or injury to others? On the one hand, it seems to be an escape from suffering, but on the other, it could be that this person–say, someone in Nazi Germany who knows where a number of Jews are hiding, & wants to be sure he does not reveal them to the Nazi torturers…I have no idea. I have to trust in the mercy & justice of God, Who knows what is in all of our hearts.

 

[francisca]

I also knew somebody who committed suicide. He was my colleague in my office ten years ago. The last conversation I had with him he asked me why prostitution was bad, and that they all were just like people like us who happen to have a unique profession. He was a muslim, but not really practicing. I guess he did not believe in God at all. He had just got married and left a three month old son then. He was under pressure in the office and had extremely big debt to pay. I hear that he took some kind of antidepressant.

About this antidepressant thing, I read that some of them can cause some people suicidal. So I really “oppose” antidepressant as a way to go out from depression. I have my bad days and sometimes I thought I might be depressed. But I have promised myself not to let any psycholog/psychiatritst who does not know anything about my life (and so much that I do not know how to express my feelings to them as well) to prescribe me any antidepressant, ever.

To cry and to have a lazy day of rest is what a depressed person need, and one should not suppress this need. To trust God and to let Him do His way is what brings me out of my depression. When I am depressed I listen to praise and worship songs. They soothes my feelings and change the way I think. God is the one to give me true rest. Sometimes I can be very demanding to myself and lose the peace God has given me. This is what lead me to depressions. This pattern I have learnt well. So now I have a lot less bad days then many years ago. God is my true rest and my healer.

About my colleage who commited suicide, he left me (and some other girls in the office) a woman magazine, before he died. He was a nice sociable person. It was and is hard to imagine that God damned him to eternal fire. I kept searching for answer of this. And from Jeremiah 17 I learn that things does not happen in one day just like that. Instead things build up or deteriorated to their ultimate based on whether they come from God (blessed) or not. I find this harsh but truthful.

Jeremiah 17:7
Blessed is the man who trusts in the LORD, whose hope is the LORD.

 

[aquinas333]

Francisca, you’ve touched upon four seperate yet very interrelated issues, namely clinical vs. non-clinical depression, the efficacy of anti-depressant therapy, the immorality of suicide and the psychological aftermath of those who must deal with a loved one’s suicide. I, too, wish to adress all four.
First, clinical depression is a very serious and complex psychological disorder that is most effectively treated with a combination of anti-depressant drug therapy and psychotherapy. This is to be clearly distinguished from “the Blues,” or the sub-clinical depressions that everyone experiences from time to time. The former, or clinical depression, lies at the root of most suicidal thinking/behavior.
Second, if you review the literature, you’ll find that anti-depressents are extremely effective in the treatment of clinical depression. Generally speaking, 60%-80% of clinically depressed persons benefit from this type of treatment. Moreover, in most cases, if not all, it is considered malpractice for a psychiatrist not to prescribe anti-depressant drug therapy for a clinically depressed individual.
Third, many fail to distinguish between the objective evil of an act and the individual’s subjective culpability. Certainly, suicide is intrinsically, objectively evil. We know this via Scripture and Tradition, the twinfold source of divine revelation. Yet, for an act to be mortally sinful, three things are necessary: grave matter, full knowledge and full consent of the will. Clinical depression is a serious, life-threatening mental illness. It profundly dulls the intellect and weakens the will. Morever it is well known the the majority of individuals who take their own lives or attempt to are suffering with clinical depression or some other mental illness. Thus, while suicide is intrinsically, objectivly evil, it would seem that the majority of people who commit or attempt to commit suicide are not, subjectively speaking, fully culpable, and therefore are not committing or have not commited mortal sin.
Finally, it should be noted that many people who think about suicide really believe that they are among the most worthless, useless and abject of persons. They may feel that they’re dragging everyone around them down. Ultimately, many feel that their loved ones would actually be better off without them around. These are examples of the skewed logic and faulty thinking characteristic of suicidal persons. Obviously such persons are seriously misguided in their thinking, as the loss of a loved one to suicide is among the most traumatizing of experiences. It is normal to experience a host of conflicting emotions in the wake of a loved one’s suicide: anger, deep sorrow, guilt, fear that another loved one will do the same thing, and sometimes, if the person was especially ill, an uneasy relief. Such emotions ought not to be repressed but rather should be accepted as a normal, natural bereavement process.
I hope this helps to clarify some things for some people. God bless you all! P.S. This is my first post so, Hello everone!!!

 

[francisca]

Hi there and welcome.

First, clinical depression is a very serious and complex psychological disorder that is most effectively treated with a combination of anti-depressant drug therapy and psychotherapy.

I do not oppose the use of antidepressant if it is proven that somebody really really need it. But how to determine whether somebody really need it? There are cases when people are only in their “blues” but diagnosed as “depressed” and end up taking antidepressant and therefore become suicidal AFTER. These people-- although depressed-- had never had any suicide thoughts UNTIL they take antidepressant.

This is to be clearly distinguished from “the Blues,” or the sub-clinical depressions that everyone experiences from time to time.

To tell you the truth I am a cynic if it is regarding psychology. I know some good psycholog can give “good analysis and diagnosis” and so to “predict” the pattern of behavior. But the way to deal with the problem, wait a minute.

A good analysis and diagnose is not necessarily 100% accurate in psychology. We are dealing with people and the games they play. Everyone play games, including the psycholog himself is a human being with their own experience and intepretation, no matter how well trained, they can’t transform themselves into the patient shoes. Thus no matter how good their analysis and diagnose, there are many cases they can’t be accurate. But when they decide, “OK you shows symtomps of this and that, here is the drug”, and that’s it.

There are 5 points :

1. Psyche is something we can’t see. Both patient and doctor are subject to their own psyche. To say it in the extreme way “no body is totally sane” and this includes the doctor himself.
2. The Psycholog use his own experience knowledge and understanding to intepret the message from the patient.
3. The methodologies he learns from books are not necessarily right for the patient.
4. The patient does not necessarily know how to explain their own situation. They may conciously or unconciously hide some details. They must interpret their feelings and explain them in words, this is not easy to do. The doctor then must interpret the message, not necessarily accurately.
5. All in all, the doctor then tell the patient, “here is what happened to you : you do this because of that. That is a sickness, and here is the drug”.

In many cases, people who are only depressed but not suicidal becomes suicidal (or having thoughts of inflicting self injury on themselves such as cutting themselves) after-- something they have never thought before-- taking anti depressant. Moreover many becomes addicted to them, at least psycologically dependent on those drugs. Thus they get worse, not better.

Some psycholog might tell a patient : you are depressed now because in the past your parents bla bla bla. If his analysis is wrong, the patient goes home with nothing but “condemnations”, and they may be “self fulfilled” later.

Here is my main point :
Even if some psycholog can accurately predict the pattern of behavior, and able to give good analysis of “the past”, they are not necessarily always good in giving solutions. And some psycholog are just not good. Moreover if they are psychiatrists, so focus on drugs prescribing, they are not to receive everybody “depressed” as their patients, because some people just do not need drugs to get out from depression.

Moreover, in most cases, if not all, it is considered malpractice for a psychiatrist not to prescribe anti-depressant drug therapy for a clinically depressed individual.

That is too bad, isn’t it. Here is what the bible say :

Sirach 38:15
May he who sins before his Maker, fall into the hands of the doctor!

(Read the whole passage Sirach 38:1-15)

Third, many fail to distinguish between the objective evil of an act and the individual’s subjective culpability…for an act to be mortally sinful, three things are necessary: grave matter, full knowledge and full consent of the will.

The bible say, if you trust man’s strength you are cursed. To me, full consent or not, if somebody commit suicide, he lost his life, and all the good things God has prepared for him from the begining, period.

And how do the church teach as to make sure the people know what God has prepared for them since the beginning, so nobody should think they should take everything into their hands but that God has prepared what is good so that they know that they have these good things to enjoy if they trust God and so submit to His hand?

 

[francisca]

Clinical depression is a serious, life-threatening mental illness. It profundly dulls the intellect and weakens the will.

And how to diagnose if it is a clinical depression? I might have not enough sleep, not enough nutrients, therefore I am depressed. I might have overworked, therefore I am depressed, I might have hung on some value (or some valueables) but lost, therefore I am depressed. My husband may have been cheating on me therefore I am depressed. I might have ten children, big houses, big companies to take care, big debt, too many friends and fans, bad relations, not enough friends, not enough activities, too many activities, therefore I am depressed.

All in all, I think antidepressant is the last answer for those of the above. People have combinations of problems. But only one thing to be sure of : to hope in God, He knows your needs. He can heal you of depression (regardless your past, He can heal you NOW), because with God is joy and healing and rest. Joy and rest in Him is what a depressed person need.

Morever it is well known the the majority of individuals who take their own lives or attempt to are suffering with clinical depression or some other mental illness.

Mental illness. I am not talking about mental illness such schizophrenia and other mental illness. If you are schizophrenic, for example, then yes you need your medicine. Here, I am talking about normal people who were depressed (lightly/heavily) but not suicidal, who became suicidal after taking antidepressant.

Thus, while suicide is intrinsically, objectivly evil, it would seem that the majority of people who commit or attempt to commit suicide are not, subjectively speaking, fully culpable, and therefore are not committing or have not commited mortal sin.

Whether mortal-sin, I do not know. One thing I know, to commit suicide is mortal. It is against the will of life, which is the will of God.

I see myself as “in darkness” when I am depressed. But God is light. See, He can make me see the light and get up again… It does not matter what happened in the past (I am forgiven and is trying to forgive), I can get up and walk and see again. (Reflection on the eternal light : Wisdom 7:21-29)

God specifically forbid us to “carry loads” to cross the gate of Jerusalem on sabbaths. It means, we can work for six days, on the seventh we depend on Him to bless us. If we break the sabbath rules (which means to rest in God), we will end up in mortal punishment (Jeremiah 17:24-27). This is not a mere tradition but has deeper meaning. If we cannot rest in Him, we and our many efforts end up cursed, because we fail to receive the blessing of God with what God finish (makes perfect) all of his creations (Genesis 1).

Finally, it should be noted that many people who think about suicide really believe that they are among the most worthless, useless and abject of persons.

… which is the lie of the devil. Yes.

They may feel that they’re dragging everyone around them down. Ultimately, many feel that their loved ones would actually be better off without them around. These are examples of the skewed logic and faulty thinking characteristic of suicidal persons.

Even if a good psycholog/ a good friend can tell how faulty thinking they have, it does not mean they automatically know how to correct them. To analyze is one thing, the answer, however, is only with the Lord.

Obviously such persons are seriously misguided in their thinking, as the loss of a loved one to suicide is among the most traumatizing of experiences. It is normal to experience a host of conflicting emotions in the wake of a loved one’s suicide: anger, deep sorrow, guilt, fear that another loved one will do the same thing, and sometimes, if the person was especially ill, an uneasy relief. Such emotions ought not to be repressed but rather should be accepted as a normal, natural bereavement process.

Right.

 

[djamu]

would i have gone to hell if i considered suicide a week ago. My medicine was poisoning my brain, making it corrupt and stuff. I couldn’t pull myself out of it. I was illurgic to one of my psyche meds.

 

[puzzleannie]

If so, why?

If your church/leader/text says so, why does it say that?

in the dcalogue, Thou shalt not kill.

 

[puzzleannie]

would i have gone to hell if i considered suicide a week ago. My medicine was poisoning my brain, making it corrupt and stuff. I couldn’t pull myself out of it. I was illurgic to one of my psyche meds.

one cannot commit a mortal sin–a sin that merits hell if you die with it on your soul–if you cannot freely will and consent the act. Bad reaction from Rx drugs means even if this had happened it would not have been a sin for you. By God’s great mercy we have you with us still and you are getting better treatment, what a blessing.