Is the attempted ordination of women in a non-Catholic Church morally wrong?

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sidbrown

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The Vatican has said that the attempted ordination of women is a grave crime in the Roman Catholic Church.
guardian.co.uk/world/2010/jul/15/vatican-attempted-ordination-women-grave-crime

The question I have is whether or not this is a purely disciplinary directive which applies only to the Roman Catholic Church or does this apply to other Churches as well. In other words, is there anything morally wrong or objectionable for a non-Catholic Church to have women priests or ministers? I know that the Episcopal Church has women “priests”, but the Eastern Orthodox Church does not. And the Lutheran Church allows women ministers. Would it be perfectly all right for a non-Catholic Church, such as the Oriental Orthodox Church or Eastern Orthodox Church to have women priests and bishops or would this be gravely wrong according to Roman Catholic teaching? Similarly for the Anglican and other churches or ecclesial communities.
 
It is wrong - it is something that has been built out of the Reformation and Moral Relativism. There are many reasons - here are the ones I like:
  1. Christ never ordained female priests and since He established the Sacraments neither should we
  2. In the Consecration of the Eucharist the priest acts in persono Christi - or in person of Christ - Christ was male - therefore the priest should be male. It is matter and form of the Sacrament.
  3. If the Church is the Bride of Christ and the priest acts in persono Chrsti - and you have a female priest - does this not open the door to gay marriage? BTW- look at our Anglican brothers and sisters - they have female priests - AND gay marriage. Oh, Lutherans as well.
This is a very superficial theological argument that could go on for pages and probably will but just wanted to throw it out there.
 
Ministers, as in lay ministers are just fine, and needed. “Ordained” ministers or clergy are contrary to what our Lord taught by His example. The Church, which was given authority over all things on earth, has determined that it is gravely wrong. Thus, those who attempt this are guilty of both disobedience to the Church (which is Christ’s Body), as well as to the command of the Lord. Look to our lady for right behavior here. If any woman should be a Priestess, it is her. Yet, she aspired to no such thing, being meek and humble. Frankly, we can see a very accurate time-line correlation between the demand or desire for female Priests with the rise of feminism and the emboldening of homosexuality in culture. Not that the three are necessarily or inextricably linked, but it does tend to show a common origin of concept.
 
I would think it is morally wrong for any one to be ordained outside of the Catholic church because it is helping to ultimately lead people astray and away from the Truth. Now, how culpable they are for that moral wrongness I can not say because most likely they were raised in their beliefs, and as the Church teaches now, they will probably not be held totally accountable for those mistakes.
 
The teachings of our Holy Father, Pope Benedict XVI does not apply to “other” Christian Churches who have volutarilly removed themselves - in error - from his guideance as the Holy Father. So, despite the teaching of the Holy Father being true for all, it will not be followed by all.
 
sidbrown said:
The Vatican has said that the attempted ordination of women is a grave crime in the Roman Catholic Church.
guardian.co.uk/world/2010/jul/15/vatican-attempted-ordination-women-grave-crime

The question I have is whether or not this is a purely disciplinary directive which applies only to the Roman Catholic Church or does this apply to other Churches as well.
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It is a purely disciplinary directive. This can be seen by the fact that it applies to ordaining female deacons as well as priests and bishops. However, from here:

In fact, the Catholic Church has already indirectly acknowledged valid ordinations of women by the Armenian Apostolic Church, one of the churches of the East that ordains women deacons. There are two recent declarations of unity—agreements of mutual recognition of the validity of sacraments and of orders—between Rome and the Armenian Church, one signed by Paul VI and Catholicos Vasken I in 1970, another between John Paul II and Catholicos Karekin I in 1996.
 
This question could be about two different things. First, this could refer to the Catholic woman recently who was “ordained” a priest by a non-Catholic group. This would be sinful for the woman. Is it morally wrong for a non-Catholic church to affront Catholicism in this way, which is in effect to say by their action that the Catholic practice is wrong? Many Protestants have been affronting Catholicism in this sense since the time of the Protestant revolt of the Sixteenth Century. Whether this is morally wrong, you decide.
Secondly, this could refer to a non-Catholic church ordaining a woman as “priest” in their own church. However, she would no more be a Catholic priest that a priest of Zeus. I don’t think it was particularly morally wrong for anyone to have been ordained a priest of Zeus in ancient times. Or for a woman to be made a priest in a church which actually has no priests, not sacramental priests of the sort that Christ established and which are found in the Catholic and Orthodox Churches,.
 
mdgspencer said:
This question could be about two different things. First, this could refer to the Catholic woman recently who was “ordained” a priest by a non-Catholic group. This would be sinful for the woman. Is it morally wrong for a non-Catholic church to affront Catholicism in this way, which is in effect to say by their action that the Catholic practice is wrong? Many Protestants have been affronting Catholicism in this sense since the time of the Protestant revolt of the Sixteenth Century. Whether this is morally wrong, you decide.
Secondly, this could refer to a non-Catholic church ordaining a woman as “priest” in their own church. However, she would no more be a Catholic priest that a priest of Zeus. I don’t think it was particularly morally wrong for anyone to have been ordained a priest of Zeus in ancient times. Or for a woman to be made a priest in a church which actually has no priests, not sacramental priests of the sort that Christ established and which are found in the Catholic and Orthodox Churches,.
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The Episcopal Church, for example, does claim to ordain women to the priesthood and as bishops. Of course, the RCC does not recognise the validity of the ordination, but the RCC would not recognise the validity of the ordination of a Catholic woman by, say, an Old Catholic bishop. But in the case of a Catholic woman, it is considered to be gravely wrong, even though the ordination is invalid. Why then would it not be considered to be gravely wrong for the Episcopal Church to attempt to ordain women as priests and bishops. In either case, the RCC does not recognise he validity of the ordination.
 
mdgspencer said:
I don’t think it was particularly morally wrong for anyone to have been ordained a priest of Zeus in ancient times. Or for a woman to be made a priest in a church which actually has no priests, not sacramental priests of the sort that Christ established and which are found in the Catholic and Orthodox Churches,.
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And this gets to the heart of the matter. In the eyes of the Catholic Church, the Anglican Church and the Lutheran Church do not have Apostolic Succession. Thus, according to the Catholic Church, the Anglicans and Lutherans (and other Protestant denominations) do not have priests, even if their clergy are called priests. This applies to men and women equally. Or even the Archbishop of Canterbury… not a priest, according to the Catholic Church.

So, I think that technically there is nothing immoral about Protestant Churches ordaining female clergy. However, it could be said that doing so endangers Christian reunion and creates confusion among the faithful. Female Protestant clergy, from a Catholic point of view may not necessarily be an immoral practice, but its a bad one.

However, the same would not be true in the Orthodox Churches. They do have Apostolic Succession and validly ordain priests. For them to ordain a woman would be to violate a central characteristic of the priesthood. So, to answer the OP’s question, female ordination would be a “no-no” even in the non-Catholic Orthodox Churches.
 
Exactomundo.

It is important to note that these “churches” are not considered “Churches”, rather ecclesial communities in Roman Catholic Theology. So…what happens outside the Catholic Church in terms of ordinations and such are not part of the Universal Church (even though the members of such ecclesial communities are connected in some way to the Universal (Catholic) Church), and as such are more of an eccumenical matter rather than a moral one.
 
Do you have a Church document that supports this assertion?

Thanks,

Chuck
Just_Lurking said:
It is a purely disciplinary directive. This can be seen by the fact that it applies to ordaining female deacons as well as priests and bishops. However, from here:

In fact, the Catholic Church has already indirectly acknowledged valid ordinations of women by the Armenian Apostolic Church, one of the churches of the East that ordains women deacons. There are two recent declarations of unity—agreements of mutual recognition of the validity of sacraments and of orders—between Rome and the Armenian Church, one signed by Paul VI and Catholicos Vasken I in 1970, another between John Paul II and Catholicos Karekin I in 1996.
Click to expand...
 
It is not. The only reason Vatican condemns ordination of female priests is because Christ had no apostles who were female and they don’t feel they have the authority to overrule/govern for themselves. There is no real reason why it is a sin. And, in particular, outwith the Church, it doesn’t make sense for Catholics to be complaining.
 
sidbrown said:
The Vatican has said that the attempted ordination of women is a grave crime in the Roman Catholic Church.
guardian.co.uk/world/2010/jul/15/vatican-attempted-ordination-women-grave-crime

The question I have is whether or not this is a purely disciplinary directive which applies only to the Roman Catholic Church or does this apply to other Churches as well. I
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no other “church”, except the orthodox, out of communion with the Catholic Church has valid orders in any case so this is a non-issue. Episcopal ordinations are invalid and illicit, even where those bishops do have an intent to ordain to priesthood, because they have lost apostolic succession. Most Protestant denominations do not even ordain their ministers to a sacrificial priesthood, so Catholic canon law and doctrine are irrelevant in those communions. They have already breached the law, centuries ago. The issue of ordained woman ministers in other communions is moot.
 
Hey, I want to give this a shot!

OK, so only people ordained in the Catholic Church are validly ordained and thus subject to the restriction of men only.

So the way I see it, anyone outside the Catholic Church who is “ordained” within that faith, is actually a lay minister. And lay ministers in the Catholic church can be male or female.

So outside the Catholic faith, ministers can be male or female as they are all “lay ministers” only (at least by my terms as a Catholic).

That business about the Armenian church ordaining female deacons and the Vatican accepting does fuzzy up things, but isn’t that a church that the Vatican recognizes a valid ordination? I don’t think being in or out of communion pertains, as long as the Vatican recognizes valid apostolic succession and valid ordinations.

Interesting question!
 
puzzleannie said:
no other “church”, except the orthodox, out of communion with the Catholic Church has valid orders in any case so this is a non-issue. Episcopal ordinations are invalid and illicit, even where those bishops do have an intent to ordain to priesthood, because they have lost apostolic succession. Most Protestant denominations do not even ordain their ministers to a sacrificial priesthood, so Catholic canon law and doctrine are irrelevant in those communions. They have already breached the law, centuries ago. The issue of ordained woman ministers in other communions is moot.
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There are other schismatic groups that still carry valid ordinations and Orders
 
sidbrown said:
The Vatican has said that the attempted ordination of women is a grave crime in the Roman Catholic Church.
guardian.co.uk/world/2010/jul/15/vatican-attempted-ordination-women-grave-crime

…
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OP, you previously raised a related question here, and I responded with a link to the original document from the Church.

Two questions:
  1. Why do you cite again a secondary source (the Guardian), when I have already provided a link to the Church original? (for this, I am quite happy to accept that you just didn’t notice that my embedded link was to the original),
  2. If you didn’t notice it, then I have no problems - these things happen. However, if you did notice it, then did you read it (ie. the Church original)? And if you did read it, then why are you asking others’ interpretation, without presenting your own? (and acknowledging mine, which was in YOUR previous thread)?
 
Edmundus1581 said:
OP, you previously raised a related question here, and I responded with a link to the original document from the Church.

Two questions:
  1. Why do you cite again a secondary source (the Guardian), when I have already provided a link to the Church original? (for this, I am quite happy to accept that you just didn’t notice that my embedded link was to the original),
  2. If you didn’t notice it, then I have no problems - these things happen. However, if you did notice it, then did you read it (ie. the Church original)? And if you did read it, then why are you asking others’ interpretation, without presenting your own? (and acknowledging mine, which was in YOUR previous thread)?
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You are right, the original document is so much better. Thank you so much for this link. I need to study it further in depth.
 
sidbrown said:
You are right, the original document is so much better. Thank you so much for this link. I need to study it further in depth.
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Thanks Sid. At least we are on the same page now! 🙂

It is a legal document, for use within the Church. I found it difficult to establish it’s context, and to determine the underlying moral issues. However, I did find it helpful to establish, at least, that the attempted ordination of women is a “grave delict” against the sacraments (rather than morals, or Church discipline).

This is the best commentary by a Catholic that I have seen.

stmalachi.org/2010/07/about-those-new-vatican-norms/

(And the Guardian synopsis is reasonable).

As for your initial concern about the attempted ordination of women in a non-Catholic church - good luck trying to work that out! (Except, as is self-evident by now, this Church document does not apply directly, as its procedures and penalties apply only within the Catholic church)
 
Edmundus1581 said:
Thanks Sid. At least we are on the same page now! 🙂

It is a legal document, for use within the Church. I found it difficult to establish it’s context, and to determine the underlying moral issues. However, I did find it helpful to establish, at least, that the attempted ordination of women is a “grave delict” against the sacraments (rather than morals, or Church discipline).

This is the best commentary by a Catholic that I have seen.

stmalachi.org/2010/07/about-those-new-vatican-norms/

(And the Guardian synopsis is reasonable).

As for your initial concern about the attempted ordination of women in a non-Catholic church - good luck trying to work that out! (Except, as is self-evident by now, this Church document does not apply directly, as its procedures and penalties apply only within the Catholic church)
Click to expand...
So then there would be no objection from the Roman Catholic Church if another Church (or ecclesial community) were to attempt to ordain women, such as the Eastern Orthodox Church, the Old Catholic Church, or the Anglican Church?
 
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