kaycee said:
What indication is there that this is information for the universal church, never mind Big T tradition???
Has the Church ever infalliby defined this unwritten message from John?
I like you can guess at the message. I think John’s Oral message here was to watch out for the tradition of men as the LORD said!
Mark 7:7 And in vain they worship Me, Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.’ 8"For laying aside the commandment of God, you hold the tradition of men*–the washing of pitchers and cups, and many other such things you do." 9 He said to them, “All too well you reject the commandment of God, that you may keep your tradition. …13 making the word of God of no effect through your tradition which you have handed down. And many such things you do.”
It doesn’t matter which specific teachings John gave to the people. The Church has the
entirety of the Apostolic teachings, so whatever John taught to those specific people is included. We don’t need to define, fallibly or infallibly, what he taught specifically. It is sufficient to know that he taught something, and we have the teaching in the Apostolic deposit of faith.
The Markan quote is out of context. Begin reading at 7:2, and you will see that Jesus is referring to a specific tradition which the Jews had instituted (the ritual washing of hands). Mark tells us that this is the tradition started by the elders. Jesus firstly is using this instance as an example to teach a lesson, not to condemn this tradition. He doesn’t really care if they wash hands ritually before eating. His point to the Phrisees is that they are criticising people for following man made traditions, but won’t follow God’s commands. The point is that the Pharisees demand strict coherence to a man-made tradition but don’t care about God’s commandments. Jesus provides a further example of tradition, but this one, that of the Corban, actually specifically
counteracts a commandment of God (to honor thy father and mother).
This is why he says they make the Word of God of no effect: they create tradtitions which are
contrary to it. Jesus isn’t condemning
all manmade tradition, he is rather saying that we must enforce God’s word even more strongly than how we enforce men’s rules, and that we must not create traditions or rules which are contrary to God’s Word. For example, if we read this passage as literally (and without context) as you suggest, we would then be forced to condemn saying nightly prayers, as God never instructed us to do so, and it is a manmade tradition. We would have to stop brushing our teeth in the morning, as this too is a manmade tradition. Wine at weddings (like Jesus had)? Forget about it! Manmade tradition. The fact is Jesus doesn’t care about any of this. He is only concerned that we put God’s commands above our own, and that we not contradict them in our rules and traditions. Any traditions which we hold as more important than God’s Word Jesus DOES condemn, as does He condemn any tradition which contradicts God’s Word. The Catholic Church has neither.
In fact, if Jesus meant to condemn all tradition, we have a major problem! Paul command the Thessolonians to “stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught,
whether by word, or our epistle.” (2 Thessolonians 2:15) Note that Paul says that the traditions must be followed if they are sent by an epistle, but
also] if they are delivered by
word.
The Catholic Church does have some traditions of the type Jesus was not condemning, those which don’t contradict the Word of God. These traditions are the ones that don’t matter and that can easily be changed at any time. They also have Traditions which were taught by the Apostles.
These are the Traditions which pertain to God, and which were taught by Paul, Peter, James, John, Thomas, Phillip, and so on. The Church doesn’t just make them up.
“May be missing? May be information we dont have?”