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kaycee
Guest
Can you display the list of these Traditions? There is a list correct? These Traditions are equal to Scripture correct? Surely to follow them one must actually know what they are!
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Kay_Cee
Guest
I’m unsure what you mean by “a byproduct of revelation.” However, by what authority do you believe this is true? Can this idea be found in scripture?
Please define what you mean by “finished act of God” and how you know this act is finished.
Basis for this belief, please. How do you know God has preserved the canon if you believe the canon is fallible (you did say you agreed with Sproul that it is a fallible collection).
No, I’m saying that that is a way God chooses to communicate His word to us. An infallible Church gives us assurance that we have the truth. Are you saying God can’t do that?
Of course God doesn’t need anything. We know, however, that He often chooses to work through human beings and angels. For example, He sent Moses to the children of Israel. He sent an angel to convey a message to Mary. He could have gone Himself, but He chose not to.
You still have not answered my questions from post #29.
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Malachi4U
Guest
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Malachi4U
Guest
Pt 2,
eakswim:
1 Thes 1:5 “For our gospel came not unto you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Ghost, and in much assurance; as ye know what manner of men we were among you for your sake.” KJV
2 Thes 2:15 “Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.”
2 Pe 1:15 “Moreover I will endeavour that ye may be able after my decease to have these things always in remembrance.”
Jesus promises to be with us and guide us in our Tradition!
2 Pe 3:1-2 “This second epistle, beloved, I now write unto you; in both which I stir up your pure minds by way of remembrance: 2 That ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Saviour:”
Col 1:5-6, 11:12, 2 Thes 3:6, Rom 10:17, 1 Cor 15:1-2, St. Mt 23:2-3, and so much more!
St. Jn 21:25 “And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen.”
1 Thes 1:5 “For our gospel came not unto you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Ghost, and in much assurance; as ye know what manner of men we were among you for your sake.” KJV
2 Thes 2:15 “Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.”
2 Pe 1:15 “Moreover I will endeavour that ye may be able after my decease to have these things always in remembrance.”
Jesus promises to be with us and guide us in our Tradition!
2 Pe 3:1-2 “This second epistle, beloved, I now write unto you; in both which I stir up your pure minds by way of remembrance: 2 That ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Saviour:”
Col 1:5-6, 11:12, 2 Thes 3:6, Rom 10:17, 1 Cor 15:1-2, St. Mt 23:2-3, and so much more!
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Malachi4U
Guest
Pt 3,
Where does Jude 3 say the Faith was delivered once and only once and never again? Your friend adds to Scripture just like Joseph Smith, Calvin, Zwingili and Luther did. How can he say “Faith” is limited to the NT? The verse does not say that at all. Where does the verse say it was the Holy Spirit that delivered it? It must have come from your friends tradition because he sure has invented a lot of tradition! Bad for us to have Tradition but ok for him? It’s a double standard!
Was all the NT written by apostles or even during their lives? Where is his proof? Oh that’s right, he uses his tradition as proof. I forgot about his false man made traditions too.
Your friend may read the Bible but he sure doesn’t understand what he reads and He sure doesn’t know the history of the Church or Scripture. Your friend also has tradition he follows and believes in. He just has scales on his eyes so he doesn’t see it.
God bless
eakswim said:
Where does Jude 3 say the Faith was delivered once and only once and never again? Your friend adds to Scripture just like Joseph Smith, Calvin, Zwingili and Luther did. How can he say “Faith” is limited to the NT? The verse does not say that at all. Where does the verse say it was the Holy Spirit that delivered it? It must have come from your friends tradition because he sure has invented a lot of tradition! Bad for us to have Tradition but ok for him? It’s a double standard!
Was all the NT written by apostles or even during their lives? Where is his proof? Oh that’s right, he uses his tradition as proof. I forgot about his false man made traditions too.
Your friend may read the Bible but he sure doesn’t understand what he reads and He sure doesn’t know the history of the Church or Scripture. Your friend also has tradition he follows and believes in. He just has scales on his eyes so he doesn’t see it.
God bless
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mlchance
Guest
IOW: “Let’s use synonymous terms and pretend they’re different. That way we can agree with the proposition we’re trying to refute while at the same time appearing to disagree with it.”
Why the yelling?
God doesn’t need anything. We, however, receive everything we need from God. One of those things we need is an infallible Church to safeguard authentic Christian teaching, which is why we ought to thank God for founding the Catholic Church before his ascension.
– Mark L. Chance.
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mercygate
Guest
Does God need an infallible Church to safeguard Scripture? God may not need it but we certainly do, as evidenced by the madness often promoted by heretics. You gotta read some of those “gospels” that the Church rejected in order to appreciate the Holy Spirit’s influence working through the Church to safeguard the written Word. Even Protestants acknowledge the role of the Church in safeguarding Scripture.Are you implying that GOD NEEDS an Infallible Church to safeguard the scriptures?
I am sure you are aware of that the early church had some fairly large problems with bad doctrine, even claiming Apostolic tradition that conflicted with each other!
Since Trent “infallibly” defined the Canon in 1546. Are you saying that thru 3/4 of church history there was no reliable scripture???
Trent defined the canon that had been received without question since the late 4th Century. Trent did not draw up a new table of contents. It merely affirmed the canon that had been acknowledged throughout the entire Church – East and West – for 1200 years. The Tridentine definition came (as many definitions do) in response to a specific attack on the Scriptures mounted by Protestants.
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kaycee
Guest
So the church has displaced Holy Spirit?
1 Jo 2:27 - As for you, the anointing which you received from Him abides in you, and you have no need for anyone to teach you; but as His anointing teaches you about all things, and is true and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you abide in Him.
Joh 14:26 - "But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you.
1Co 2:12 - Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, so that we may know the things freely given to us by God,
1Co 2:14 - But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised.
Ga 5:18 - But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the Law.
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mlchance
Guest
http://home.houston.rr.com/mchance3/rolleyes.gif
The Holy Spirit is he who makes infallible the Church which God founded before his ascension.
– Mark L. Chance.
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kaycee
Guest
So you would agree there was no infallible canon until 1546?
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mercygate
Guest
No. I would not. Infallibility does not depend upon the explicit declaration. The ordinary Magisterium of the Church is ‘infallible’ without such declarations. For example, the doctrine of the Resurrection is part of the ordinary Magisterium. A council did not need to state it in order for the doctrine to be infallible.
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kaycee
Guest
So Matt 16:18 makes the church infallible?
Matt 16:18 “I also say to you that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build My church; and the gates of Hades will not overpower it.”
If the LORD is building the Church, how does that make the church infallible? The Church is’nt building the church, correct?
The Churches founded by Paul were hardly infallible, Corinth? Galatia? and neither was Peter when Paul corrected him.
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mlchance
Guest
This question has been covered.
This question has been covered.
It has become obvious you don’t understand what the Catholic Church means by the technical term “infallible”. Make an effort to educate yourself:
catholic.com/library/Papal_Infallibility.asp
catholic.com/library/Peter_and_the_Papacy.asp
catholic.com/library/Apostolic_Succession.asp
catholic.com/library/Apostolic_Tradition.asp
catholic.com/library/Can_Dogma_Develop.asp
catholic.com/library/Scripture_and_Tradition.asp
catholic.com/library/What_Your_Authority.asp
newadvent.org/cathen/07790a.htm
– Mark L. Chance.
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Kay_Cee
Guest
It occurred to me last night that we could ask the same question about scripture. Does God need an infallible Bible to safeguard His word? Does God need anything?
Of course He doesn’t, but in His wisdom He chooses to give us scripture. In the same vein, He chooses to give us the Church.
You still have not answered my questions from post 29, and now you are ignoring my questions in post 42.
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DianJo
Guest
Ohh, Ok, can I see the list please?
You dont really mean to be so unsure do you?“May be missing? May be information we dont have?”
An implication you wish to avoid in your quote of 2Ti 3:16?
No one knows what the contents of the letters. Yours assertion of its contents is a WILD GUESS!
The canon is not an object of revelation, it is a byproduct of revelation. The early Christians recieved scripture through the historical process of recognizing the finished act of God. Since God has a purpose for inspiring the Scriptures, and He is sovereign over all things, He has preserved that Word: both as to its text (transmission) and its content (canon).
Are you implying that GOD NEEDS an Infallible Church to safeguard the scriptures?
I am sure you are aware of that the early church had some fairly large problems with bad doctrine, even claiming Apostolic tradition that conflicted with each other!
.
Since Trent “infallibly” defined the Canon in 1546. Are you saying that thru 3/4 of church history there was no reliable scripture???
No, we are not saying that for 3/4 of church history there was no reliable scripture. What we are saying is that for the whole of church history there has always been reliable scripture. It was first declared at the Synod of Rome in 382 and then again at Synods of Hippo and Carthage in 394 and 396 (give or take a year or two). The only reason the infallible statement was made about the canon of scripture at the Council of Trent was because of the Protestant attempts to remove books from the bible. It was necessary to reinterate to the faithful the correct canon of scripture that hand been undisputed for about 1200 years.
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mercygate
Guest
You are correct. Christ builds the Church. That’s how we know it is indefectible: because he promised that the gates of the netherworld would not prevail against it. Infallibility is a necessary corollary of indefectibility.
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Ignatius
Guest
The problem is not with the bible, it is with the people misinterpreting it. That is why Jesus founded His Church.
God Bless
God Bless
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Absalom
Guest
Forgive me for jumping here, but I thought I might add something to the “list” discussion. In discussions with some Protestants about the deuterocanonical books (“apocrypha”), many of them have said to me, “Those books are good to read, but they’re not the word of God because neither Jesus nor the apostles ever quoted any of them in the NT.” I infer from this statement that their method of determining the OT canon is by quotation in the NT (which completely ignores how we come to the NT canon, but that’s another can of worms). Fine. In that case, since there are some books in the protestant OT that aren’t quoted in the NT, then we should throw those books out. Also, if a book is ratified as the word of God because it is quoted by an apostle in the NT, then shouldn’t we include the Assumption of Moses and the Book of Enoch (see Jude)?
None of us, I am sure, are ready to throw out any of the OT books, and we are certainly not going to add the two above books because Jude alludes to them (and not just alludes, but speaks of them as if he believes them be truthful and worthy of study). So we should probably discard the idea that we can discern the Canon from the Bible using the method of seeing what Jesus and the apostles quoted and what they didn’t quote. Our only other option, then, is that there must be a list.
What? No list?
Now, if I believe that the Bible is the “pillar and bulwark of the truth” (wink, wink), then shouldn’t the Bible tell me what writings are authentically the word of God (and, consequently, which ones aren’t)? Unfortunately, it doesn’t.
Forgive me for sounding arrogant (I swear I’m not!), but it is at this point I say that the doctrine of Sola Scriptura has been sort of pulverized.
None of us, I am sure, are ready to throw out any of the OT books, and we are certainly not going to add the two above books because Jude alludes to them (and not just alludes, but speaks of them as if he believes them be truthful and worthy of study). So we should probably discard the idea that we can discern the Canon from the Bible using the method of seeing what Jesus and the apostles quoted and what they didn’t quote. Our only other option, then, is that there must be a list.
What? No list?
Now, if I believe that the Bible is the “pillar and bulwark of the truth” (wink, wink), then shouldn’t the Bible tell me what writings are authentically the word of God (and, consequently, which ones aren’t)? Unfortunately, it doesn’t.
Forgive me for sounding arrogant (I swear I’m not!), but it is at this point I say that the doctrine of Sola Scriptura has been sort of pulverized.
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Kay_Cee
Guest
It’s been three days, and I’m still waiting for kaycee to answer my questions in posts 29 and 42.
I would, at the very least, like an explanation why he hasn’t answered those questions. I have noticed him posting in other threads more recently, so certainly he hasn’t been too busy.
Perhaps he needs more time to do some research or consult with others?
I would, at the very least, like an explanation why he hasn’t answered those questions. I have noticed him posting in other threads more recently, so certainly he hasn’t been too busy.
Perhaps he needs more time to do some research or consult with others?
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kaycee
Guest
Kay Cee:
Sola Scriptura
The whole counsel of God, concerning all things necessary for His own glory, man’s salvation, faith and life, is either expressly set down or necessarily contained in Holy Scripture: unto which nothing at any time is to be added, whether by new revelations of the Spirit, or traditions of men.
The Word of God was indeed spoken at first before being written down! You seem to be reburning the ashes of the straw man again.
The entirety of Your word is truth, And every one of Your righteous judgments endures forever’ (Psalm 119:160). The teaching of the Bible is free from error and we can have absolute confidence in it. It is infallible, it is God Breathed!
Moreover, sola Scriptura affirms that all that the Church and every Christian must believe for salvation and godliness is certainly found in the Holy Scriptures. The Bible is able to make us wise for salvation which is by faith in Christ Jesus (2 Timothy 3:15,16). The Bible is also useful for teaching and correction so that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly furnished for every good work. God’s revelation for His Church is fully contained in the Holy Bible and there is no important information missing that we should seek elsewhere.
Matthew 22:29.Jesus answered and said to them, “You are mistaken, not knowing the Scriptures nor the power of God.
Jesus uses “It is written” as authoratative countless times. Does Jesus ever use “tradition” as authoratative? Jesus, as far as i remember never says anything good about tradition!
(2 Timothy 3:15,16). The Bible is also useful for teaching and correction so that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly furnished for every good work. God’s revelation for His Church is fully contained in the Holy Bible and there is no important information missing that we should seek elsewhere.
The sufficiency of Scripture is clearly asserted, but it is a sufficiency carefully defined. No one claims the Bible is an omnipedia of all knowledge. Nor does anyone claim the Bible can tell you, specifically, what color fabric to place upon the pews of your new church building. But all things that are “necessary” for God’s “own glory, man’s salvation, faith and life, is either expressly set down or necessarily contained in Holy Scripture.” How like the words of Augustine:
What more shall I teach you than what we read in the apostle? For Holy Scripture fixes the rule for our doctrine, lest we dare to be wiser than we ought. Therefore I should not teach you anything else except to expound to you the words of the Teacher. (De bono viduitatis, 2)
Note well the words of Augustine: he says that the Scriptures fix “the rule for our doctrine.” The Latin of the passage reads, “Scriptura nostræ doctrinæ regulam figit.” Protestants say the Scriptures are the sole infallible regula fidei, the rule of faith. It seems Augustine believed the same.
Your concept of Sola Scriptura is incorrect.
Sola Scriptura
The whole counsel of God, concerning all things necessary for His own glory, man’s salvation, faith and life, is either expressly set down or necessarily contained in Holy Scripture: unto which nothing at any time is to be added, whether by new revelations of the Spirit, or traditions of men.
The Word of God was indeed spoken at first before being written down! You seem to be reburning the ashes of the straw man again.
The entirety of Your word is truth, And every one of Your righteous judgments endures forever’ (Psalm 119:160). The teaching of the Bible is free from error and we can have absolute confidence in it. It is infallible, it is God Breathed!
Moreover, sola Scriptura affirms that all that the Church and every Christian must believe for salvation and godliness is certainly found in the Holy Scriptures. The Bible is able to make us wise for salvation which is by faith in Christ Jesus (2 Timothy 3:15,16). The Bible is also useful for teaching and correction so that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly furnished for every good work. God’s revelation for His Church is fully contained in the Holy Bible and there is no important information missing that we should seek elsewhere.
Matthew 22:29.Jesus answered and said to them, “You are mistaken, not knowing the Scriptures nor the power of God.
Jesus uses “It is written” as authoratative countless times. Does Jesus ever use “tradition” as authoratative? Jesus, as far as i remember never says anything good about tradition!
Jude 1:3 - Beloved, while I was very diligent to write to you concerning our common salvation, I found it necessary to write to you exhorting you to contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints. Apparently no new revalation.
(2 Timothy 3:15,16). The Bible is also useful for teaching and correction so that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly furnished for every good work. God’s revelation for His Church is fully contained in the Holy Bible and there is no important information missing that we should seek elsewhere.
The sufficiency of Scripture is clearly asserted, but it is a sufficiency carefully defined. No one claims the Bible is an omnipedia of all knowledge. Nor does anyone claim the Bible can tell you, specifically, what color fabric to place upon the pews of your new church building. But all things that are “necessary” for God’s “own glory, man’s salvation, faith and life, is either expressly set down or necessarily contained in Holy Scripture.” How like the words of Augustine:
What more shall I teach you than what we read in the apostle? For Holy Scripture fixes the rule for our doctrine, lest we dare to be wiser than we ought. Therefore I should not teach you anything else except to expound to you the words of the Teacher. (De bono viduitatis, 2)
Note well the words of Augustine: he says that the Scriptures fix “the rule for our doctrine.” The Latin of the passage reads, “Scriptura nostræ doctrinæ regulam figit.” Protestants say the Scriptures are the sole infallible regula fidei, the rule of faith. It seems Augustine believed the same.
The early church recognized by the leading of the Holy Spirit what books were God Breathed. All but 5 books were agreed upon by the late 100’s (I think 2cnd and 3rd John, 2cnd peter, revalation)
My last name is Caissie
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