Is the bible all we need 1

[EA_Man]

Lazerlike42:

Paul was the instructor, and Paul was a part of the Church.

OK - which came first, the Word of God or the Church?

 

[Lazerlike42]

EA_Man:

OK - which came first, the Word of God or the Church?

If you mean the Word of God or the Church, the Word of God. The Word is eternal and everlasting.

If you mean the Scriptures of the Church, then the Church came first.

 

[EA_Man]

E.E.N.S.:

The apostle Paul would be what we call a bishop…our bishops today are successors to the apostles - and the Bishop of Rome is the successor to Peter.

Thank you!

I think not.

The terms apostle and bishop are both in the Bible. Paul refers to himself as an apostle. Does he or any other inspired writer refer to him as a bishop?

Secondly, by what line of evidence do you have assurance that the Pope is the successor to Peter or that Peter even had a successor?

Thanks

 

[EA_Man]

Lazerlike42:

If you mean the Word of God or the Church, the Word of God. The Word is eternal and everlasting.

If you mean the Scriptures of the Church, then the Church came first.

Really?

Are the OT texts part of the “Scriptures of the Church”, the Word of God, or both?

Peace

 

[Lazerlike42]

EA_Man:

I think not.

The terms apostle and bishop are both in the Bible. Paul refers to himself as an apostle. Does he or any other inspired writer refer to him as a bishop?

Secondly, by what line of evidence do you have assurance that the Pope is the successor to Peter or that Peter even had a successor?

Thanks

That’s a huge topic, far too big for this thread. Suffice it to say there is more evidence for that than there is to say that Moses ever lived. Do you doubt that?

If you want to talk about that, we’ll point you to the correct threads. My first reccomendation would be the thread called “Isaiah 22:21-22.”

Also is the fact that only three people ever had their names changed by God: Abram to Abraham, Jacob to Israel, and Simon to Peter (Cephas: Rock)

Also is the fact that after Paul’s conversion one of the first things he did was go looking specifically for Peter. Not James, not John, nor Thomas nor Andrew nor Jude, but Peter.

Also is the fact that Peter presides over the first ecumenical council.

Also is the fact that Peter is ALWAYS listed first and Judas ALWAYS last.

Also is the fact that only Judas and Peter are recorded as being tested by God. Judas fails, Peter passes.

 

[Lazerlike42]

EA_Man:

Really?

Are the OT texts part of the “Scriptures of the Church”, the Word of God, or both?

Peace

Yes they are. Nobody disputes that. However the Church came before the New Testament Scriptures.

 

[kaycee]

Lazerlike42:

Do you mean to say that if something is only mentioned once in the Gospel we should ignore it? Do you really disrespect the Word of God this way?

Not sure how you can say I ignore it. Its figurative for teachers of the LAW.

Speaking of ignoring how can Salvation by Faith alone be ignored?
I’ll see your 1 Faith and Works verses (out context) and raise several hundred Salvation by Faith alone verses.

Luke 7:50 And he said to the woman, Your faith has saved you; go in peace.

Acts 2:21 - And it shall come to pass that everyone who calls upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Ac 16:31 - And they said, Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.

Joh 3:15 - that whoever believes in him may have eternal life. For God so loved the world,that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

Joh 3:18 - Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.

Joh 5:24 - Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.

Joh 8:24 - I told you that you would die in your sins, for unless you believe that I am he you will die in your sins

Ro 10:9-10 - because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved.

Ro 10:13 - **For everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved. **

Eph 2:8 - **For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, **

Tit 3:5 - he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit,

Ac 26:18 to open their eyes, so that they may turn from darkness to light and from the power of Satan to God, **that they may receive forgiveness of sins and a place among those who are sanctified by faith in me. **

Ro 3:22 - the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction:

Ro 3:26 - It was to show his righteousness at the present time, so that he might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.Then what becomes of our boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? By a law of works? No, but by the law of faith.

Ro 3:28 - For we hold that one is justified by faith apart from works of the law.

Ro 3:30 - **since God is one. He will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith. **

Ro 5:1 - Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.

Ro 10:9 - because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

Ro 10:17 - So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ

Ga 2:16 - **yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified. **

Ga 3:11 - Now it is evident that no one is justified before God by the law, for The righteous shall live by faith.

Ga 3:26 - for in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God, through faith.

1Co 1:21 - For since, in the wisdom of God, the world did not know God through wisdom, **it pleased God through the folly of what we preach to save those who believe. **

1Ti 1:16 - But I received mercy for this reason, that in me, as the foremost, Jesus Christ might display his perfect patience as an example to those who were to believe in him for eternal life.

2Ti 3:15 - and how from childhood you have been acquainted with the sacred writings, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus.

Joh 20:31 - but these are written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.

1Jo 5:13 - I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life.

Funny, I dont see works to get salvation just for post salvation.

**Joh 11:26 - “and everyone who lives and believes in me shall never die. Do you believe this?” **

Indeed, do you believe this?

 

[E.E.N.S]

Lazerlike42:

If you want to talk about that, we’ll point you to the correct threads. My first reccomendation would be the thread called “Isaiah 22:21-22.”

I brought that post here (though if we are going to expound on it - let’s just move there, okay?)

(Objection: The Pope can’t be head of the Church.)

**22:21

and I will clothe him with your robe, and will bind your girdle on him, and will commit your authority to his hand; and he shall be a father to the inhabitants of Jerusalem and to the house of Judah.

22:22

And I will place on his shoulder the key of the house of David; he shall open, and none shall shut; and he shall shut, and none shall open.

**Jesus is drawing from this image of the keys when He gives Peter the keys to the kingdom of heaven in Mt 16:18-19. The keys are a symbol of authority given to the chief official or prime minister of the Kingdom of David. A dynastic succession was also an element of the office of prime minister. When the office was vacated, another was selected to take his place. The Pope is Christ’s earthly representative and is the prime minister of the Kingdom of heaven here on earth, the Church.

 

[Lazerlike42]

kaycee:

Indeed, do you believe this?

I do believe it, but none of them seem to say alone.

Do you believe Paul?

Rom 2:6 He will repay each one according to his works:
Rom 2:7 eternal life to those who by patiently doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;
Rom 2:8 but wrath and indignation to those who are self-seeking and disobey the truth, but are obeying unrighteousness;

Do you believe John?

Rev 20:12 I also saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life, and the dead were judged according to their works by what was written in the books.
Rev 20:13 Then the sea gave up its dead, and Death and Hades gave up their dead; all were judged according to their works.

Do you believe Jesus?

Mat 19:17 “Why do you ask Me about what is good?” He said to him. “There is only One who is good. If you want to enter into life, keep the commandments.”
Mat 19:18 “Which ones?” he asked Him. Jesus answered, Do not murder; do not commit adultery; do not steal; do not bear false witness;
Mat 19:19 honor your father and your mother; and love your neighbor as yourself.

This can’t turn into a Sola FIde debate because if it does the thread will be locked, but the point is that you have to take the whole of Scripture into account, not just a few verses. If any of those said faith alone, I’d have no problem saying that we have to intepret my verses in a different way. Since it never says faith alone, I have no choice but to interpret the faith verses in a different way.

 

[E.E.N.S]

EA_Man:

Secondly, by what line of evidence do you have assurance that the Pope is the successor to Peter or that Peter even had a successor?

Thanks

1. St. Peter (32-67)
2. St. Linus (67-76)
3. St. Anacletus (Cletus) (76-88)
4. St. Clement I (88-97)
5. St. Evaristus (97-105)
6. St. Alexander I (105-115)
7. St. Sixtus I (115-125) – also called Xystus I
8. St. Telesphorus (125-136)
9. St. Hyginus (136-140)
   10. St. Pius I (140-155)
10. St. Anicetus (155-166)
11. St. Soter (166-175)
12. St. Eleutherius (175-189)
13. St. Victor I (189-199)
14. St. Zephyrinus (199-217)
15. St. Callistus I (217-222)
16. St. Urban I (222-230)
17. St. Pontain (230-235)
18. St. Anterus (235-236)
19. St. Fabian (236-250)
20. St. Cornelius (251-253)
21. St. Lucius I (253-254)
22. St. Stephen I (254-257)
23. St. Sixtus II (257-258)
24. St. Dionysius (260-268)
25. St. Felix I (269-274)
26. St. Eutychian (275-283)
27. St. Caius (283-296) – also called Gaius
28. St. Marcellinus (296-304)
29. St. Marcellus I (308-309)
30. St. Eusebius (309 or 310)
31. St. Miltiades (311-314)
32. St. Sylvester I (314-335)
33. St. Marcus (336)
34. St. Julius I (337-352)
35. Liberius (352-366)
36. St. Damasus I (366-383)
37. St. Siricius (384-399)
38. St. Anastasius I (399-401)
39. St. Innocent I (401-417)
40. St. Zosimus (417-418)
41. St. Boniface I (418-422)
42. St. Celestine I (422-432)
43. St. Sixtus III (432-440)
    45. St. Leo I (the Great) (440-461)
44. St. Hilarius (461-468)
45. St. Simplicius (468-483)
46. St. Felix III (II) (483-492)
47. St. Gelasius I (492-496)
48. Anastasius II (496-498)
49. St. Symmachus (498-514)
50. St. Hormisdas (514-523)
    53. St. John I (523-526)
51. St. Felix IV (III) (526-530)
52. Boniface II (530-532)
    56. John II (533-535)
53. St. Agapetus I (535-536) – also called Agapitus I
54. St. Silverius (536-537)
55. Vigilius (537-555)
56. Pelagius I (556-561)
    *61. John III (561-574)
    ***62. Benedict I (575-579)
57. Pelagius II (579-590)
    64. St. Gregory I (the Great) (590-604)
58. Sabinian (604-606)
59. Boniface III (607)
60. St. Boniface IV (608-615)
61. St. Deusdedit (Adeodatus I) (615-618)
62. Boniface V (619-625)
63. Honorius I (625-638)
64. Severinus (640)
    72. John IV (640-642)
65. Theodore I (642-649)
66. St. Martin I (649-655)
67. St. Eugene I (655-657)
68. St. Vitalian (657-672)
69. Adeodatus (II) (672-676)
70. Donus (676-678)
71. St. Agatho (678-681)
    *80. St. Leo II (682-683)
    ****81. St. Benedict II (684-685)
    ***82. John V (685-686)
72. Conon (686-687)
73. St. Sergius I (687-701)
    *85. John VI (701-705)
    ***86. John VII (705-707)
74. Sisinnius (708)
75. Constantine (708-715)
    *89. St. Gregory II (715-731)
    ***90. St. Gregory III (731-741)
76. St. Zachary (741-752)
    Stephen II (752)
77. Stephen III (752-757)
    93. St. Paul I (757-767)
78. Stephen IV (767-772)
79. Adrian I (772-795)
    96. St. Leo III (795-816)
80. Stephen V (816-817)
81. St. Paschal I (817-824)
82. Eugene II (824-827)
83. Valentine (827)
    101. Gregory IV (827-844)
84. Sergius II (844-847)
    *103. St. Leo IV (847-855)
    ***104. Benedict III (855-858)
85. St. Nicholas I (the Great) (858-867)
86. Adrian II (867-872)
    107. John VIII (872-882)
87. Marinus I (882-884)
88. St. Adrian III (884-885)
89. Stephen VI (885-891)
90. Formosus (891-896)
91. Boniface VI (896)
92. Stephen VII (896-897)
93. Romanus (897)
94. Theodore II (897)
    116. John IX (898-900)
95. Benedict IV (900-903)
    118. Leo V (903)
96. Sergius III (904-911)
97. Anastasius III (911-913)
98. Lando (913-914)
    *122. John X (914-928)
    ***123. Leo VI (928)
99. Stephen VIII (929-931)
    *125. John XI (931-935)

 

[E.E.N.S]

(cont’d)

126. Leo VII (936-939)
127. Stephen IX (939-942)
128. Marinus II (942-946)
129. Agapetus II (946-955)
*130. John XII (955-963)
****131. Leo VIII (963-964)
****132. Benedict V (964)
****133. John XIII (965-972)
****134. Benedict VI (973-974)
****135. Benedict VII (974-983)
****136. John XIV (983-984)
****137. John XV (985-996)
***138. Gregory V (996-999)
139. Sylvester II (999-1003)
*140. John XVII (1003)
***141. John XVIII (1003-1009)
142. Sergius IV (1009-1012)
*143. Benedict VIII (1012-1024)
****144. John XIX (1024-1032)
***145. Benedict IX (1032-1045)
146. Sylvester III (1045)
*147. Benedict IX (1045)
***148. Gregory VI (1045-1046)
149. Clement II (1046-1047)
150. Benedict IX (1047-1048)
151. Damasus II (1048)
152. St. Leo IX (1049-1054)
153. Victor II (1055-1057)
154. Stephen X (1057-1058)
155. Nicholas II (1058-1061)
156. Alexander II (1061-1073)
157. St. Gregory VII (1073-1085)
158. Blessed Victor III (1086-1087)
159. Blessed Urban II (1088-1099)
160. Paschal II (1099-1118)
161. Gelasius II (1118-1119)
162. Callistus II (1119-1124)
163. Honorius II (1124-1130)
164. Innocent II (1130-1143)
165. Celestine II (1143-1144)
166. Lucius II (1144-1145)
167. Blessed Eugene III (1145-1153)
168. Anastasius IV (1153-1154)
169. Adrian IV (1154-1159)
170. Alexander III (1159-1181)
171. Lucius III (1181-1185)
172. Urban III (1185-1187)
173. Gregory VIII (1187)
174. Clement III (1187-1191)
175. Celestine III (1191-1198)
176. Innocent III (1198-1216)
177. Honorius III (1216-1227)
178. Gregory IX (1227-1241)
179. Celestine IV (1241)
180. Innocent IV (1243-1254)
181. Alexander IV (1254-1261)
182. Urban IV (1261-1264)
183. Clement IV (1265-1268)
184. Blessed Gregory X (1271-1276)
185. Blessed Innocent V (1276)
186. Adrian V (1276)
187. John XXI (1276-1277)
188. Nicholas III (1277-1280)
189. Martin IV (1281-1285)
190. Honorius IV (1285-1287)
191. Nicholas IV (1288-1292)
192. St. Celestine V (1294)
193. Boniface VIII (1294-1303)
194. Blessed Benedict XI (1303-1304)
195. Clement V (1305-1314)
*196. John XXII (1316-1334)
***197. Benedict XII (1334-1342)
198. Clement VI (1342-1352)
199. Innocent VI (1352-1362)
200. Blessed Urban V (1362-1370)
201. Gregory XI (1370-1378)
202. Urban VI (1378-1389)
203. Boniface IX (1389-1404)
204. Innocent VII (1406-1406)
205. Gregory XII (1406-1415)
206. Martin V (1417-1431)
207. Eugene IV (1431-1447)
208. Nicholas V (1447-1455)
209. Callistus III (1455-1458)
*210. Pius II (1458-1464)
***211. Paul II (1464-1471)
212. Sixtus IV (1471-1484)
213. Innocent VIII (1484-1492)
214. Alexander VI (1492-1503)
215. Pius III (1503)
216. Julius II (1503-1513)
217. Leo X (1513-1521)
218. Adrian VI (1522-1523)
219. Clement VII (1523-1534)
220. Paul III (1534-1549)
221. Julius III (1550-1555)
222. Marcellus II (1555)
*223. Paul IV (1555-1559)
****224. Pius IV (1559-1565)
****225. St. Pius V (1566-1572)
*

 

[E.E.N.S]

(cont’d)

226. Gregory XIII (1572-1585)
227. Sixtus V (1585-1590)
228. Urban VII (1590)
229. Gregory XIV (1590-1591)
230. Innocent IX (1591)
231. Clement VIII (1592-1605)
*232. Leo XI (1605)
****233. Paul V (1605-1621)
***234. Gregory XV (1621-1623)
235. Urban VIII (1623-1644)
236. Innocent X (1644-1655)
237. Alexander VII (1655-1667)
238. Clement IX (1667-1669)
239. Clement X (1670-1676)
240. Blessed Innocent XI (1676-1689)
241. Alexander VIII (1689-1691)
242. Innocent XII (1691-1700)
243. Clement XI (1700-1721)
244. Innocent XIII (1721-1724)
245. Benedict XIII (1724-1730)
246. Clement XII (1730-1740)
247. Benedict XIV (1740-1758)
248. Clement XIII (1758-1769)
249. Clement XIV (1769-1774)
*250. Pius VI (1775-1799)
****251. Pius VII (1800-1823)
****252. Leo XII (1823-1829)
****253. Pius VIII (1829-1830)
****254. Gregory XVI (1831-1846)
****255. Blessed Pius IX (1846-1878)
****256. Leo XIII (1878-1903)
****257. St. Pius X (1903-1914)
****258. Benedict XV (1914-1922)
****259. Pius XI (1922-1939)
****260. Pius XII (1939-1958)
****261. Blessed John XXIII (1958-1963)
****262. Paul VI (1963-78)
****263. John Paul I (1978)
****264. John Paul II (1978-2005)
***265. Benedict XVI (2005-)

 

[kaycee]

Lazerlike42:

This can’t turn into a Sola FIde debate because if it does the thread will be locked, but the point is that you have to take the whole of Scripture into account, not just a few verses. If any of those said faith alone, I’d have no problem saying that we have to intepret my verses in a different way. Since it never

says faith alone, I have no choice but to interpret the faith verses in a different way. Not sure why the word alone is required?

When you buy milk at the store, do they say “that will be $2.39, alone”.

When lawyers pass the bar, are they told “you need to pass the bar, alone”?

Are college students told their degree reqires x many credits, alone?

 

[E.E.N.S]

kaycee:

Lazerlike42:

Not sure why the word alone is required?

When you buy milk at the store, do they say “that will be $2.39, alone”.

When lawyers pass the bar, are they told “you need to pass the bar, alone”?

Are college students told their degree reqires x many credits, alone?

There is one place in Scripture where it says “faith alone,” that’s when it says “you are not saved by faith alone.” (James 2:24)

(But if you want to talk Sola Fide, move to another thread, this thread is debating Sola Scriptura.)

 

[EA_Man]

Lazerlike42:

Yes they are. Nobody disputes that. However the Church came before the New Testament Scriptures.

So what?

This argument assumes that precedence amounts to primacy.

Moses lived before Jesus, does that give Moses primacy over Jesus?

Of course not.

 

[EA_Man]

quote=E.E.N.S.

226. Gregory XIII (1572-1585)
227. Sixtus V (1585-1590)
228. Urban VII (1590)
229. Gregory XIV (1590-1591)
230. Innocent IX (1591)
231. Clement VIII (1592-1605)
232. Leo XI (1605)
**233. Paul V (1605-1621)
**234. Gregory XV (1621-1623)
235. Urban VIII (1623-1644)
236. Innocent X (1644-1655)
237. Alexander VII (1655-1667)
238. Clement IX (1667-1669)
239. Clement X (1670-1676)
240. Blessed Innocent XI (1676-1689)
241. Alexander VIII (1689-1691)
242. Innocent XII (1691-1700)
243. Clement XI (1700-1721)
244. Innocent XIII (1721-1724)
245. Benedict XIII (1724-1730)
246. Clement XII (1730-1740)
247. Benedict XIV (1740-1758)
248. Clement XIII (1758-1769)
249. Clement XIV (1769-1774)
250. Pius VI (1775-1799)
**251. Pius VII (1800-1823)
**252. Leo XII (1823-1829)
**253. Pius VIII (1829-1830)
**254. Gregory XVI (1831-1846)
**255. Blessed Pius IX (1846-1878)
**256. Leo XIII (1878-1903)
**257. St. Pius X (1903-1914)
**258. Benedict XV (1914-1922)
**259. Pius XI (1922-1939)
**260. Pius XII (1939-1958)
**261. Blessed John XXIII (1958-1963)
**262. Paul VI (1963-78)
**263. John Paul I (1978)
**264. John Paul II (1978-2005)
**265. Benedict XVI (2005-)
[/quote]

This is a topic for another thread:

But, how does a list of names prove that these men are the legitimate successors to Peter or that in fact, anyone is the successor to Peter? Where is the record of Peter appointing a successor? Where is the evidence of a permanent office being established by Jesus?

Peace

 

[E.E.N.S]

EA_Man:

This is a topic for another thread:

But, how does a list of names prove that these men are the legitimate successors to Peter or that in fact, anyone is the successor to Peter?

You didn’t ask for ‘proof’ you asked for a line of evidence.

EA_Man:

Where is the evidence of a permanent office being established by Jesus?

History my friend, history. Do you doubt that John Paul II was Pope? Nor did the people of Pope Paul V’s time doubt that he was successor to Pope Leo XI, or the people of Pope Clement to Pope Anacletus, etc.

What proof do you have that George Washington was President? Lincoln? Kennedy? How do you know that Bush is the successor to Clinton?

 

[EA_Man]

E.E.N.S.:

You didn’t ask for ‘proof’ you asked for a line of evidence.

I asked for a line of evidence, I got a list of people. They’re not the same thing.
E.E.N.S.:

History my friend, history.

Oh, we’re appealing to history?

Excellent!

1. Show me where in history, New Testament history that is, there is precedent for Apostolic Succession.
2. The Great Schism - “for nearly half a century the Church was split into two or three obediences that excommunicated one another, so that every Catholic lived under excommunication by one pope or another, and, in the last analysis, no one could say with certainty which of the contenders had right on his side,” J. Ratzinger; Principles of Catholic Theology (Ignatius, 1987), 196.

An amazing admission from the Prefect of the Faith! An entire generation of Catholics excommunicated. No one sure of who the pope was.

The solution? The Council of Constance.

An ecumenical council must be “convoked by the pope…[be] under the presidency of the pope or his personal legate…[and receive] his final approval,” NCE (1967). But the purpose of Constance was to resolve the Great Schism, so none of these conditions could be met.

What is the canonical status of the Council of Constance? It’s officially indeterminate, because it poses a hopeless dilemma to the papacy—Constance can’t be formally ratified without affirming the primacy of council over the pope, and it can’t be dismissed without reopening the Great Schism. NCE (1967)

Interesting - the very history that you appeal to to “prove” Apostolic Succession forces you to take as an article of faith the very premise that you seek to prove.

 

[E.E.N.S]

EA_Man:

1. Show me where in history, New Testament history that is, there is precedent for Apostolic Succession…

Easy enough, look at the need to fill Judas spot among the apostles: (Acts 1:20-26)
1:20For it is written in the book of Psalms, ‘Let his habitation become desolate, and let there be no one to live in it’; and 'His office let another take.'1:21 *So one of the men who have accompanied us during all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us,*1:22 beginning from the baptism of John until the day when he was taken up from us–one of these men must become with us a witness to his resurrection."1:23 And they put forward two, Joseph called Barsab’bas, who was surnamed Justus, and Matthi’as.1:24 And they prayed and said, "Lord, who knowest the hearts of all men, show which one of these two thou hast chosen1:25 to take the place in this ministry and apostleship from which Judas turned aside, to go to his own place."1:26 And they cast lots for them, and the lot fell on Matthi’as; and he was enrolled with the eleven apostles.

EA_Man:

1. The Great Schism - “for nearly half a century the Church was split into two or three obediences that excommunicated one another, so that every Catholic lived under excommunication by one pope or another, and, in the last analysis, no one could say with certainty which of the contenders had right on his side,” J. Ratzinger; Principles of Catholic Theology (Ignatius, 1987), 196.

An amazing admission from the Prefect of the Faith! An entire generation of Catholics excommunicated. No one sure of who the pope was.

The solution? The Council of Constance.

An ecumenical council must be “convoked by the pope…[be] under the presidency of the pope or his personal legate…[and receive] his final approval,” NCE (1967). But the purpose of Constance was to resolve the Great Schism, so none of these conditions could be met.

What is the canonical status of the Council of Constance? It’s officially indeterminate, because it poses a hopeless dilemma to the papacy—Constance can’t be formally ratified without affirming the primacy of council over the pope, and it can’t be dismissed without reopening the Great Schism. NCE (1967)

Interesting - the very history that you appeal to to “prove” Apostolic Succession forces you to take as an article of faith the very premise that you seek to prove.

You took Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger out of context…but good post none the less - one which deserves a good response…allow me to do so for you as soon as I get back from lunch.

 

[EA_Man]

E.E.N.S.:

Easy enough, look at the need to fill Judas spot among the apostles: (Acts 1:20-26)
1:20For it is written in the book of Psalms, ‘Let his habitation become desolate, and let there be no one to live in it’; and 'His office let another take.'1:21 *So one of the men who have accompanied us during all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us,*1:22 beginning from the baptism of John until the day when he was taken up from us–one of these men must become with us a witness to his resurrection."1:23 And they put forward two, Joseph called Barsab’bas, who was surnamed Justus, and Matthi’as.1:24 And they prayed and said, "Lord, who knowest the hearts of all men, show which one of these two thou hast chosen1:25 to take the place in this ministry and apostleship from which Judas turned aside, to go to his own place."1:26 And they cast lots for them, and the lot fell on Matthi’as; and he was enrolled with the eleven apostles.

As expected.

But not conclusive in that Judas was replaced by Matthias but no one was chosen to replace James (Acts 12:1).

If Apostolic Succession was supposed to be a pattern set forth by Jesus, then why are we not shown more than one Apostle being replaced? One instance does not a pattern make.

Apostle is a vocation (a calling) not an office, much like a prophet.

But let’s grant this proposition for argument’s sake. Where are the successors to the other eleven apostles? Have they all been subsumed by the Catholic Church? Which bishops are the successors of Phillip, of John, of Matthias? What we have is an historical claim without any historical verification.

Peace