Is The Catholic Church against the death penalty?

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

God said: “You shall not kill”. (Ex. 20:13; Deut. 5:17)

This is a mistranslation of the commandment. It is you shall not murder. Murder and killing are two different things.

“Human life is sacred …” (CCC #2258)

Today, in fact, as a consequence of the possibilities which the state has for effectively preventing crime, by rendering one who has committed an offence incapable of doing harm - without definitely taking away from him the possibility of redeeming himself - the cases in which the execution of the offender is an absolute necessity are very rare, if not practically nonexistent. (CCC #2267) (Emphasis is mine.)

IMO you cannot be both a Catholic and ‘admire’ or be in favour of killing any other human being. Abortion, murder, capital punishment are all wrong.

Practically nonexistent does not mean nonexistent.

I also suggest that you read the section in the Catechism on self defense.

 

[Matthew_Holford]

This is a mistranslation of the commandment. It is you shall not murder.

“You shall not kill” (Ex. 20:13); “You must not kill” (Deut. 5:17) from the New Jerusalem Bible. A bible approved by the Catholic Church. Take it up with the translators.

Murder and killing are two different things.

That is an arguable point on semantics may be best left for linguists.

Practically nonexistent does not mean nonexistent.

Twist that how you chose, I know what it means to me.

I also suggest that you read the section in the Catechism on self defense.

Read my posts properly you would have realised I had.

 

[hosemonkey]

That statement is just so wrong on so many levels.

Wait until you become the target, then talk to me.

Agreed but not by state-sanctioned cold blooded murder. And, how does it protect society? Most murderers are not serial killers. The convict has already murdered someone. In most cases, I know not all, but is the vast majority, they will not go on to commit further murders. In any case to protect itself society can keep them in prison for life. I find that acceptable because I do not believe that they should go unpunished.* I wished life meant life in the UK but it rarely does.*

I am an orthodox Latin Rite Catholic. And I live in the real world.

 

[Warrenton]

Hello to all -
The biggest problem with the death penalty in the US (even Texas) is that it’s arbitrary. I am fairly certain St. Thomas Aq. never countenanced the arbitrary enforcement of anything, let alone capital punishment.

Law enforcement has changed alot since the 1200s. Then, it was not so much arbitrary as it was hard. If someone ran, jurisdiction was difficult to establish. There was little in the way of forensics. St. Thomas knew he was writing on an imperfect system.

Fast forward to 2010. We have (in the US) a huge police force, and getting bigger. They decide, pretty much at will, whom to investigate, where to focus their attention, what to look for. If an officer testified, “I saw the bloody footprints leading right to Jones’s door,” he can make Jones look guilty. It’s up to the officer whether he even bothers to investigate whether the footprints lead out the back door and over to Brown’s house. Or if he does investigate, whether he chooses to reveal the information. Or if he does reveal the information, whether the eager prosecutor bothers to tell the defendant. See the problem?

Add to this issues of bias, revenge (reality: many criminals are known to the police in advance, and preconceptions abound), on top of simple, human error.

Then there is proportionality. We have cases where young, stupid kids shoot someone and swing and other cases where truly cold blooded killers don’t. There is not much of an effort to harmonize these cases even on the state level, and there’s no effort to harmonize them on the national level.

If anyone doubts that this kind of thing happens, refer to the Duke Lacross team case. That wasn’t a capital case but it shows how people can manipulate the process to railroad the defendants from start to finish. It is also is a good example of how easy it is to fake “scientific” evidence.

I accept St. Thomas’ reasoning, and I am not in favor of abolishing capital punishment. But execute more people under the present system than we do already? Traditional Catholics should say no.

 

[FAB]

Disagree.
Some people are so rotten and depraved that they just NEED killing. Society is entitled to protect itself against such people and locking them up for life at taxpayer’s expense is cruel and unusual punishment, both for the convict and for the taxpayer. The leatherheaded liberals and kumbaya handwringers should be taxed extra to pay for maintaining this human refuse, if they don’t have the stomach to terminate murderers, rapists, child killers and molesters and traitors. I know what the Church says, but this is one area where the Church and I disagree.

This is NOT the Church’s view!! Final judgement is in God’s hands not ours. We pray and work for the redemption of these individual that you are happy to do away with.

 

[Warrenton]

Following on Monkey’s idea, it’s important not to confuse the right to self defense, including the right to arm one’s self for that purpose, with capital punishment. I agree with Monkey that the UK, and some jurisdictions in the USA, have a real problem in that violent criminals do not fear their victims. The studies I have read indicate that self protection is a greater deterrent than capital punishment.

When someone kills an assailant, it is a type of capital punishment - it’s not even punishment. Everyone has the right to self defense, and to keep people from defending themselves is very wrong.

Interestingly, in many old cases (for example, Jesse James’s gang), at a time when people in the frontier were mostly armed, criminals - even murderers or their accomplices, got light sentences compared to what they would get today.

I think that’s because people were, on average, less afraid, being better armed.

 

[Matthew_Holford]

Wait until you become the target, then talk to me.

I anticipate some difficulty in that.

You have let your P.C. government turn you into a nation of frightened people.

I assume you have come to that conclusion from the oh so reliable media. That sentence is as nonsense as saying that all Americans are grossly obese junkies of a certain fast food chain.

I do not accept your comments about using the death penalty or carrying weapons to protect yourself as having any validity. It is my understanding that all Americans have the right to bear arms. I don’t know how many states in the US have the death penalty but I don’t think it’s a small number. If these methods work why do you have a much higher murder rate than we do in the UK?

It is no different than putting down a rabid dog.

What a wonderful Christian sentiment.

And I live in the real world.

 

[hosemonkey]

I anticipate some difficulty in that.

What? In you becoming a victim?

 

[hosemonkey]

This is NOT the Church’s view!! Final judgement is in God’s hands not ours. We pray and work for the redemption of these individual that you are happy to do away with.

Who said anything about being “happy?” Are you “happy” when you kill cockroaches? Is a farmer “happy” when he sprays for grasshoppers? No… Just a dirty job that needs to be done.

 

[hosemonkey]

Following on Monkey’s idea, it’s important not to confuse the right to self defense, including the right to arm one’s self for that purpose, with capital punishment. I agree with Monkey that the UK, and some jurisdictions in the USA, have a real problem in that violent criminals do not fear their victims. The studies I have read indicate that self protection is a greater deterrent than capital punishment.

When someone kills an assailant, it is a type of capital punishment - it’s not even punishment. Everyone has the right to self defense, and to keep people from defending themselves is very wrong.

Agreed.
Criminals had some distinct advantages in those days. Poor communication, hazy jurisdiction and a lack of laws, all assisted the criminal. Disadvantages of course, armed citizens, vigilantes and the possibility of being strung up to the closest tree sometimes had a chilling effect on crime. My Dad worked in Virginia City, Montana, where the vigilantes strung up eight bandits at one time. The crooks fled Virginia City like rats.

In a fairly recent sociological study, four allegedly “violent” towns in the Old West were studied. Tombstone,AZ Bodie,CA Dodge City KS and Abilene,TX were studied and it was found that most crime in those towns was restricted to the "wrong side of the tracks and the denizens of low-life neighborhoods. Drunken cowboys, gamblers, pimps and prostitutes preyed mainly on each other. So-called “decent” folk were left alone. Crimes against women and children were virtually non-existent. There were many more facts in this study, but people had a great deal more respect for one another and most men (and women) were armed. “An armed society is a polite society.”
[/QUOTE]

 

[FAB]

(Edited)
Catholic teaching teaches human dignaty and everyone, no matter how bad has a soul which can be redeembed. We as Catholic DO NOT equate any human life with that of insect. At the beginning of life murder is justified by calling the child an unviable tissue mass. Any time human life is denagrated to less than a child of God, Of course it is easy to do away with any of. History is full of examples. It long past time for us to rise above that level of revenge.

 

[Shin]

Can I, a traditional Catholic, admire the use of capital punishment as used in the State of Texas? Didn’t Pope Pius X and other popes of his era strongly defend the practice, as outlawing capital punishment originated in marxism (Hence why most left-wing liberals are against it today)?

You are free to do so.

You should carefully consider the matter naturally though, in the light of the Church’s proclamations and everything currently going on in the world.

I believe the Vatican’s guillotine is still ensconced there, even if it is gathering dust.

'It is true that highwaymen, grave-robbers, and sorcerers have their sides torn to pieces; it is also true that the martyrs undergo this same suffering. What is done is the same, but the purpose and reason why it is done is different. And so it is that there is a great difference between the criminals and martyrs.

In these cases we not only consider the torture but we first look for the intention and the reasons why the torture is inflicted. And this is why we love the martyrs - not because they are tortured but because they are tortured for the sake of Christ. But we turn our backs on the robbers - not because they are being punished but because they are being punished for their wickedness.’

St. John Chrysostom, Father and Doctor of the Church

 

[Spirithound]

“You shall not kill” (Ex. 20:13); “You must not kill” (Deut. 5:17) from the New Jerusalem Bible. A bible approved by the Catholic Church. Take it up with the translators.

Whoever strikes a person mortally shall be put to death. (Exodus 21:12)

You really should read the whole thing. It’s quite interesting.

 

[Spirithound]

How about exile to an island…Give em shelter, supplies to get them started…Sensors to check inbound outbound craft…Let them care for themselves…
Save a ton of taxpayer money…Job loss would be the only downside…But hey we could use the extra labor to secure the border…

lol…supplies to build a boat…

 

[archangel04]

Capital Punishment and going to war are not even related. The Church does have a just war doctrine and invation or attack is only one of several standards that must be met.
Catholics are called to bring the Kingdom of God here and now, not to give into what the 'world is like", we must rise above that and set the higher goal and standard.

Are they really? What’s the difference? Both events take away life! If you wan’t to use the broad argument that you shall not kill then you need to apply it to war as well. You can’t go both ways. Every society is entitled to protect themselves, wether from outside enemies or their own individuals. I once had that view that capital punishment was wrong everytime. Unitl my professor told me the very sad story about how is sister was reaped and killed along with her hursband, her son was beatend by the same 2 criminals. They got arrested and escaped from jail, Fortunatly they were caought, but there intention was to go after the child after they realize he was still alive. I don’t like capital punishment, but it’s needed that is a sad fact. Just look at our Church we were led to bealive that these child molestig priest had changed, but yet continued to do their evil acts, things like this don’t just change, they make up the person.

 

[Spirithound]

(especially as practiced in Texas which is mostly w/o due process of law).

Would you elaborate on this please?

 

[hosemonkey]

NO. Catholic teaching teaches human dignaty and everyone, no matter how bad has a soul which can be redeembed. We as Catholic DO NOT equate any human life with that of insect. At the beginning of life murder is justified by calling the child an unviable tissue mass. Any time human life is denagrated to less than a child of God, Of course it is easy to do away with any of. History is full of examples. It long past time for us to rise above that level of revenge.

Well then, we must execute criminals with great dignity. I suggest black masks and black robes for the executioners, just for a start.

 

[Matthew_Holford]

Whoever strikes a person mortally shall be put to death. (Exodus 21:12)

You really should read the whole thing. It’s quite interesting.

I’m not attempting to take things out of context. Another poster says the fifth commandment uses the word ‘murder’ not ‘kill’. I was simply pointing out that a Bible authorised by the Church uses the word ‘kill’.

 

[Matthew_Holford]

What? In you becoming a victim?

No, in talking to you if I am the victim of murder.

I have friends and relatives in the U.K. and Ireland. They validate what I say.

They of course represent a small number of people. I do not live in fear and am not aware of the many people I come into contact living in fear. The perception of danger is often greater than the reality. I think many British people would think it would be more dangerous to be in an American city than a British one. This is just people’s perception and is often not the reality.

As to the murder rate in the U.K.? You have a population of approx. 61 million. The state of California alone has a population of 38 million. No comparison.

I used the word rate quite deliberately. It does not refer to absolute numbers. The US population is far greater than the UK one therefore in absolute numbers you’re more likely to have more murders than us. Rate is the number of people murdered expressed as a percentage of the total population. Your rate is higher than ours. I am not convinced that carrying weapons decreases crime. I think it increases crimes committed with weapons. Rather than not commit crimes, criminals who fear their victims may fight back with weapons are just going to go out committing crimes armed with weapons themselves. Very often the victim still comes worse off. That’s because the victim and criminal have a different mindset. While a potential victim may carry a weapon to decrease their fear they may be more reluctant to use their weapon than the criminal.

You will not convince me that the death penalty is right. Just as I have no likelihood of bringing you round to my way of thinking. To me Christianity and capital punishment/execution/killing/murder, call it what you will, are completely incompatible.

 

[FAB]

Well then, we must execute criminals with great dignity. I suggest black masks and black robes for the executioners, just for a start.

Perhaps you should do some study on Catholic teaching on human dignity, the issue of capital punishment as the Church teaches it today and follow the Church’s instruction on having a full and developed conscience. The same is true for anyone else who is a stanch supporter of taking human life.