Is the Catholic Church Supreme?

[Ani_Ibi]

what I am speaking against is the arrogance of Catholics who seem to think that they are somhow “better” than others because of their blessedness.

Arrogance is a bit harsh.

Also it is not a sense of superiority. It is a sense of frustration that the hardness of Catholic life and the low position of Catholics in the world goes unrecognized.

To be Catholic is to suffer a death of self-importance and self-sufficiency. Catholicism is the last acceptable prejudice in our society. Being Catholic is not a walk in the park.

So both “arrogance” and thinking that they are “better than others” are way way way off the mark as descriptors of Catholic demeanor.

 

[Ani_Ibi]

nerfherder:

I think I just had an epiphany! I know - there are lots of differing interpretations of what that might mean.

I have been mulling over and over the issue of the certainty of Catholic Christians that their faith, their God, their Church, their Bible, their baptism are not only infallibly authoritative but also supreme wrt any other major Christian or other belief system.

I am a would-be convert, far along my spiritual journey. This matter is a huge stumbling block for me. And I have just realised why this is so.

It is not the belief itself that I object to: it is the right of every individual to hold whatever beliefs he or she chooses (within the law). Such rights are enshrined in various codes, national and international laws and conventions.

What I object to, and object to strongly, is the bigotry that is implied by this belief which denigrates other Christian denominations, and other faiths. The following quotes come from recent Forum postings:

They [those of other denominations] have faith, they love Christ, but they love Him through a false religion, a religion started by revolutionaries, not God.

He does not force His love upon those who are separated from Him. That is a modern twist of the faith that is simply false. If we choose to not love Christ, He will not force us to be with Him. Yours is a false Protestant mentality born of a modern and fallen culture that thinks all one has to do is say they love Jesus. It is ridiculous.

There IS only ONE church. The Holy Catholic Church established by Jesus Christ. That is why the “ecclesial communities” made up of every Christian outside of the one Church can not be part of that One Holy Catholic Church.

It seems as if this thread is saying it is due to the bad behaviour of past popes led to people leaving the church and forming their own churches. People still do this today.The problem with this is, these people aren’t looking at the Truth the church teaches, which cannot be argued with, but rather they are looking at the outwardly appearance of the church, which is shown through popes, bishops, priests, and members. All of these people sin, all of these people are not perfect like Jesus was.If this can be looked past, people would stay with the church, as the church holds the Truth.

Why should Christians - of whatever denomination - persist in this kind of bias? It is inappropriate, unChristian, and must inevitably be sinful - certainly in the eyes of Christ. It is irrelevant to this argument that He gave the keys to Peter.

What is relevant is how he told us to live, to work, to be; what he told us about compassion, lovingkindness and caritas; what he taught us about community and sharing, about discussing and learning.

This is very complicated. Emotionalistic. And confused. At the root of confusion there is generally a false premise.

Where to start with Catholicism is historical fact. From historical fact infer the truth of teaching handed down from historical person to historical person and infer the credibility of those persons by the magnitude of their dedication and sacrifices, including in some cases martyrdom.

After all, it was not complicated, labarynthine treatises which converted early Christians. It was the witness of the martyrs.

Much can be found in the CA main page library. Easy reading, concise, helpful. One would think that challengers of the Catholic Faith might do the obvious and visit that library before skidding into the boards like a mack truck on a rainy day.

nerfherder:

He was a Rabbi, a Jew. Do Catholic Christians cast aspersions on His religion too?

Honestly, when you indulge in these sorts of wild accusations, you risk losing any credibility you may have had.
:dts: Wanna rethink that post? Maybe a little temperance in expression might be helpful?

In the end, it is not what we say as Catholics. So no use quoting us. It is what the Magisterium says. It is really not best practice to lay down these kinds of red herrings and expect us not to catch you at it.

 

[Ani_Ibi]

I am a would-be convert, far along my spiritual journey.

OK. You have made this claim. Is it not fair for us then to examine this claim?

Let us quantify “far along my spiritual journey” as a “would-be convert.”

“Far along in your spiritual journey” looks like what exactly?

Yes or no answers please:

–Do you attend Mass?
–Do you speak to a priest?
–Do you have a Catholic spiritual director?
–Are you attending RCIA?
–Are you studying Magisterial teaching?
–If so, what have you studied so far?
–Have you studied the Church Fathers?
–The Martyrs?
–The Saints?
–The Popes?
–Have you read the CA Library?
–Pillar of Fire Foundation of Faith?
–Have you consulted someone who is very knowledgeable in these fields or merely fallen back on your own interpretation or the interpretations of those who persist in misrepresenting Magisterial teaching?
–Have you posted questions on the Ask an Apologist forum?
–Have you had any Catholic experiences which could be characterized as transformational or conversional?

If not, then I suggest that your next step in your spiritual journey might be to meditate for some substantial amount of time on the kettle and the pot.

 

[Ani_Ibi]

As far as authority is concerned, it is not necessary, especially if on actually HAS authority, to lord it over others. An attitude of supremacy is not called for, or necessary in such cases.

You lead me to the next step then. Do you know what authority is? Yes or no answer please.

 

[Ani_Ibi]

Is it possible that RCC is on a rather grand detour, and that protestantism is showing the way to true faith, particularly in its missions to humanity, its spirituality, and its generally more intimate relationship with Christ - for starters?

Um… and the Holy Spirit was on vacation for all those centuries before the Protestant Reformation?

If that is so – and it isn’t – then Jesus could not have been serious when He said that the Gospel was for all humanity. All humanity – except Catholics, those who could not read, the poor, the pre-Bible laity, the pre-Reformation world.

Waddupwidat?

Either that or there were secret pre-Reformation Reformers who had secret knowledge of the approved Reformation Gospel for all those centuries. And they kept their secret knowledge of the Gospel secret, rather than spreading it.

Oooops. Waddupwidat?

Which begs the question: approved by who? And on what authority?

Now if there were secret pre-Reformation Reformers who had secret knowledge of the approved Reformation Gospel for all those centuries but chose not to spread the Gospel, then it follows as night follows day that those pre-Reformer Reformers were actually Gnostics. And Gnosticism is a heresy.

:doh2:

As for intimacy: kumbaya theology is not intimacy. It is diversion based on the supremacy of the individual. The Real Presence is intimacy.

Moreover groups of individuals are not the communion of saints. The communion of saints is found in the Church because the Church both visibly and mystically exists in the world by the authority of Christ Himself.

 

[nerfherder]

Nerfherder, where are you enrolled in RCIA?

cradle convert

Since you ask, St John Fisher Roman Catholic Church, Lynwood Road, Pretoria South Africa, spiritual directors Bishop D Verstraete (ret, formerly Bishop of Klerksdorp); Monsignor Marc de Muelenaere jcd of Pretoria, and Father Michael Kelly SJ of Lusaka Zambia.

I find your postings rather difficult to take, and you do yourself and your church no favours.

 

[nerfherder]

It is Loving to tell the Truth, sweetie.

And, whoever you are, I do love you. God knows my heart.

cradle convert

Oh Lord, how long?

And don’t dare call me ‘sweetie’. You do not know me, and I do not have any wish to know you. But perhaps Christ has given you to me as a test of my imperturbability. Go enjoy Easter!

 

[nerfherder]

If it helps: the way I solved this issue of bigotry was to think of Catholics, not as better, but, as better off, than other Christians - there is an enormous difference: to think of oneself as better than others, involves self-praise, & is arrogant, not humble. To think of oneself as better off, makes room for one to admit that one is as one is through no excellence of one’s own - IOW, in a Christian context, it implies the reality of grace. Which implies that one is weak, helpless, needy, a beggar.​

AFAICS, there is a difference in degree, not in kind between saying one has faith in Christ, & saying one has this as a Catholic. Non-Christians don’t have faith in Christ - because that is what a non-Christian is. And yet, people don’t - or don’t usually - say it is arrogant of Christians to say they have faith in Christ; that they do, is a fact, & a grace. Having faith in Christ as a Catholic is (ISTM) no less truly a grace & (from the CC’s POV) a fact.

As to the “special status” of the CC - one can argue for this by exalting the CC (which is always wrong, through & through)

or

by exalting God (which is always right). If He chooses someone, that’s no praise to them; it is always a great mercy, for which praise is due to Him. Either way, that person is still chosen to be His - bigotry comes in only when that person translates God’s mercy to him as meaning that others, outside that person’s group, are of no account. But to appreciate the mercy of God is not bigoted, but healthy.

If this is no help, forget it

It is helpful, and takes a new tack on old viewpoints. Needs some thinking on. I thank you for sharing your insights.

 

[nerfherder]

Oh please… some small points: pot? kettle?

You know perfectly well that saying ‘You don’t believe in objective truth, so it is offensive to you’ to a researcher, an historian, a policy maker and planner in the field of HIV prevention and impact, might be like waving a red flag at a bull - and anyway totally unnecessary. I don’t know why it is thought right to speak in this way to one another in the first place.

Secondly, I do find the constant reiteration of the belief that the RCC has the goods as far as objective truth is concerned, that there is any kind of objective truth here, and that we are all responsible to attach ourselves to that ‘truth’ truly reprehensible.

You were right to point out the pot and the kettle, and I regret that. I am grumpy.

 

[guanophore]

To think of oneself as better off, makes room for one to admit that one is as one is through no excellence of one's own - IOW, in a Christian context, it implies the reality of **grace**. Which implies that one is weak, helpless, needy, a beggar.

Having faith in Christ as a Catholic is (ISTM) no less truly a grace & (from the CC’s POV) a fact.

by exalting God (which is always right). If He chooses someone, that’s no praise to them; it is always a great mercy, for which praise is due to Him. Either way, that person is still chosen to be His - bigotry comes in only when that person translates God’s mercy to him as meaning that others, outside that person’s group, are of no account. But to appreciate the mercy of God is not bigoted, but healthy.

If this is no help, forget it

It is helpful. It puts me in mind of the time Jesus talked to the rich young man (better off?) and told him to give away his posessions. When he turned away, Jesus told the disciples “it is hard for the rich to enter the kingdom”. This blew their minds, because they always assumed that a person who had the world’s goods was “better off” ie. chosen and blessed by God. So, if a person who was specially favored of God could not enter, how could anyone?

 

[nerfherder]

This is very complicated. Emotionalistic. And confused. At the root of confusion there is generally a false premise. Where to start with Catholicism is historical fact. From historical fact infer the truth of teaching handed down from historical person to historical person and infer the credibility of those persons by the magnitude of their dedication and sacrifices, including in some cases martyrdom. After all, it was not complicated, labarynthine treatises which converted early Christians. It was the witness of the martyrs.

Much can be found in the CA main page library. Easy reading, concise, helpful. One would think that challengers of the Catholic Faith might do the obvious and visit that library before skidding into the boards like a mack truck on a rainy day.

Honestly, when you indulge in these sorts of wild accusations, you risk losing any credibility you may have had.Wanna rethink that post? Maybe a little temperance in expression might be helpful?

In the end, it is not what we say as Catholics. So no use quoting us. It is what the Magisterium says.It is really not best practice to lay down these kinds of red herrings and expect us not to catch you at it.

Perhaps I did not write clearly enough for you. I cannot write more clearly right now. As a would-be convert (lessening by the day) I have no interest in attacking the RCC. I said that while I deferred to the teachings of the RCC **What I object to, and object to strongly, is the bigotry that is implied by this belief which denigrates other Christian denominations, and other faiths. **

As a South African, one of Mandela’s people, we are very aware of the damage that biases of any kind against people of other colours, creeds, sexes, values and beliefs can do. That is what I am concerned about: the belief that anyone who adheres to RCC is onto the only right track to salvation, and that anyone else on any other track (Christian or other) is certainly destined for hell (although the Dogmatic Constitution on the Church, paragraph 16 states otherwise). I have given quotations from this Forum to demonstrate the depth of apparently fundamentalist belief in RCC supremacy which is hurtful and unChristian in the extreme.

It was in this sense that I asked if such Catholics would hiss at Jesus’ Jewish heritage - and I know that you understood that was the point I was making. We must all reach a degree of respect for others’ belief systems in this age of global crisis.

No rethinking the post. No red herrings, but honesty. No, you did not ‘catch me at it’ - is that the kind of discipline you favour? I shall leave the Magisterium to its own devices until and if I convert.

 

[Ani_Ibi]

guanophore:

Instead of arguing with the tenents of faith, they try to discredit it by discrediting the source of the authority.

Which is an ad hominem and therefore an error in logic.

 

[nerfherder]

Which is an ad hominem and therefore an error in logic.

Whose logic?

 

[Ani_Ibi]

nerfherder:

You know perfectly well that saying ‘You don’t believe in objective truth, so it is offensive to you’ to a researcher, an historian, a policy maker and planner in the field of HIV prevention and impact, might be like waving a red flag at a bull - and anyway totally unnecessary. I don’t know why it is thought right to speak in this way to one another in the first place.

Red herring.

nerfherder:

Secondly, I do find the constant reiteration of the belief that the RCC has the goods as far as objective truth is concerned, that there is any kind of objective truth here, and that we are all responsible to attach ourselves to that ‘truth’ truly reprehensible.

Is that what the Church claims? I mean are those exactly the words the Church has chosen for its teaching? Or are those words an attempt to filter, interpret, misrepresent Church teaching?

The starting point for the authority of the Church is the historicity of the persons pointing to the authority of the Church. Their lineage in terms of Church teaching. Their credibility in terms of how their lives matched up with Church teaching; the righteousness of their lives, their understanding of the Gospel, the sacrifices they made in the name of Jesus Christ.

The authority of the Church did not pop up out of thin air to inconvenience those who do not understand it.

nerfherder:

You were right to point out the pot and the kettle, and I regret that. I am grumpy.

When I am grumpy I eat Strubs pickles and watch CSI Miami. Did you know that Horatio Caine is a Christological protagonist? That should cheer you up. I mean that there is a Christological protagonist on tv in these times. If I am still grumpy btw then I pray or read the Bible or the Saints or the Popes. St Francis has a good prayer.

 

[Ani_Ibi]

Whose logic?

Are you suggesting that the ad hominem is not an error in logic?

 

[Michael_Francis]

Due to failing charity this thread is now closed.