Is the Catholic Church the one true church?

[ElizabethJoy]

adnauseum:

More and more I am convinced that since our enemies can’t seem to make up their minds exactly what they don’t like about us, we in the Catholic Church are just right.

Amen! This is something I’m having a very hard time with, right now.

If I, a layman, can discover in four months that every single, solitary thing that I’ve ever been taught about the Catholic faith is WRONG, how hard must it have been for so-called “theologians” to conduct years of study and not ever even stumble accidentally across the proofs against their wild claims?

There is a certain bitterness and sense of betrayal that has been growing on this point. I am praying for a spirit of forgiveness. I praying for love for those who led me to believe all those things about the Church. I know that’s what Christ wants of me and heaven knows the Church certainly teaches that we must be charitable toward our separated brethren.

But, it’s difficult sometimes. “Whore of Babylon,” the Pope is the anti-Christ, Catholics worship statues, they re-crucify Jesus at every mass, they think they can work their way to heaven or buy their way to heaven, they go to confession on Saturday and they’re out cheating on their wives Saturday night, blah, blah, blah… **I am so mad that I fell for all of that **.

So-called “men of God” bearing false witness about the original Christian church - I can’t help but think that a lot of it is intentional and done knowingly. (Even though I know that I am going to be judged by the same yardstick!)

Please, Lord, let me understand this anger and let it go - I know I am not going to be a very effective witness to the mercy of Christ which has been given to me freely if I don’t offer it to others. But, still the anger keeps creeping back.

 

[Robert_Heibel]

adnauseum:

Yet heretic fundamentalists get all worked up when we claim that Mary the Mother of God was free from sin.

And you know what they say? Fundamentalist heretics say “all are sinners, it’s in the bible.”

Huh???

Which is it?

More and more I am convinced that since our enemies can’t seem to make up their minds exactly what they don’t like about us, we in the Catholic Church are just right.

Do you consider me an enemy? Was Paul an enemy of the Church when he told Peter he was wrong? Why don’t you read the Scriptures that I have been sharing? Does it sound like I’m calling the church to do something wrong?

Has Jesus ever personally told you what the Catholic Church is now teaching is His Word?

 

[adnauseum]

Robert Heibel:

Does it sound like I’m calling the church to do something wrong?

Yes.

You’re calling us to change our interpretation of scripture.

Reformists tried that.

Now they’re letting homosexuals become bishops.

I think we’ll pass on your advice.

 

[NotWorthy]

Robert Heibel:

I as a Christian who believes the Bible is the Word of God, and has read (Hebrews 6:4) has a hard time believing a person who willfully sins has ever really known God.

(1 John 3:5-6) “Now you know that he appeared in order to abolish sin, and that in him there is no sin; anyone who lives in God does not sin, and anyone who sins has never seen him or known him.”

(Hebrews 6:4) “As for those people who were once brought into the light, and tasted the gift from heaven, and received a share of the Holy Spirit, and appreciated the good message of God and the powers of the world to come and yet in spite of this have fallen away it is impossible for that to be renewed a second time. They cannot be repentant if they have willfully crucified the Son of God and openly mocked Him.”

Their have been many popes who were great sinners. How then could any person who didn’t know God hold the keys to the kingdom of God?

Robert,
Are you saying that you have never willfully sinned since your conversion?

Didn’t Christ say that He has come to heal the sick?

God has continuously used sinners to further His plan. Can you honestly say that David, who gave us most of the Psalms, was a truly virtuous person? How about Solomon? But yet, God repeatedly used men such as these to bring His Truth into the world.

Your point is a good one, Robert, and yes, there has truly been some rotten popes. This is where the easy part comes in for you. When did any of these rotten popes teach something that is contrary to Scripture.

To make your job easier, when has the Catholic Church taught anything that is contrary to Scripture?

Take care and God Bless,

Notworthy

 

[BlueMit11]

So, Robert, you are saying that, since Peter’s successors were sinful, the keys to the Kingdom of Heaven were lost on their account? That, in short, the gates of hell prevailed against the Church, if only for a period of time, until it was restored by the great reformers and carried out by you and those who practice your beliefs? If that is the case, then you had better have a talk with Jesus about his nasty habit of lying. If that is not the case, please show me how your beliefs trace back through history all the way to Peter, without being contradicted, pointing out who exactly it was that held the keys to the kingdom.

And, while we’re at it, may I point out a contradiction in your statements. You speak of sinful men not being able to hold the keys to the Kingdom, but you also speak of when Paul rebuked Peter in acts. So did Peter lose the keys? Or is he the one exception to your rule?

I find it rather interesting that with all of the same old attacks against the Church, there are no credible alternatives to the Catholic Church’s history and Apostolic Succession.

 

[Todd_Easton]

Robert Heibel:

Their have been many popes who were great sinners.

Such a serious accusation should really be supported with clear and convincing evidence. Out of the 265 popes, I seriously think anyone would be hard-pressed to name even five popes who lead anything but saintly lives. So, at best, your accustation that many popes were great sinners is a gross distortion of the truth.

Sinners or not, we are to obey our leaders and submit to them in all things except sin (Hebrews 13:17), because the Spirit has placed them over us in the Lord (Acts 20:28). Our attitude toward the sinful ones should be, as Jesus said, “… practice and observe whatever they tell you, but not what they do; for they preach, but do not practice.” (Matthew 23:3)

How then could any person who didn’t know God hold the keys to the kingdom of God?

One has only to read the words of Jesus found in Luke 12:41-48 to see that even those entrusted with the highest office in the Church, that Peter and his successors, the bishops of Rome (the popes), after him, who were given the keys of the kingdom and set over the Church as its chief steward, can sin. Otherwise, Jesus’ warning to Peter is quite pointless. However, Jesus assures us that He will judge the misconduct of our leaders most severely:41Peter said, “Lord, are you telling this parable for us or for all?” 42And the Lord said, "Who then is the faithful and wise steward, whom his master will set over his household, to give them their portion of food at the proper time? 43Blessed is that servant whom his master when he comes will find so doing. 44Truly, I say to you, he will set him over all his possessions. 45But if that servant says to himself, `My master is delayed in coming,’ and begins to beat the menservants and the maidservants, and to eat and drink and get drunk, 46the master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he does not know, and will punish him, and put him with the unfaithful. 47And that servant who knew his master’s will, but did not make ready or act according to his will, shall receive a severe beating. 48But he who did not know, and did what deserved a beating, shall receive a light beating. Every one to whom much is given, of him will much be required; and of him to whom men commit much they will demand the more.

 

[Robert_Heibel]

How amazing it seams there are many Christians who believe that their bishop (pope) could be someone who didn’t even know God. (1 John 3:3-9) “Surely everyone who entertains this hope must purify himself, must try to be as pure as Christ. Any one who sins at all breaks the law, because to sin is to break the law. Now you know that He appeared in order to abolish sin, and that in Him there is no sin: anyone who lives in God does not sin, and anyone who sins has never seen Him or known Him. My children do not let anyone lead you astray’ to live a holy life is to be holy just as He is holy’ to lead a sinful life is to belong the Devil, since the Devil was a sinner from the beginning.” Their Bishop belonged to the Devil and yet he could be the successor of Peter. My!, My! My Bishop right or wrong???

Also it seam there are many Christians that will find any excuse to not obey Scripture either because they don’t understand or like what it tells them. Saying David sinned and God forgave him. Not understanding at all that David lived way before Jesus sent His Holy Spirit to guide us.
Galatians 5:16
“Let me put it like this if you are guided by the Spirit you will be in no danger of yielding to self-indulgence…”.

 

[Robert_Heibel]

BlueMit11:

So, Robert, you are saying that, since Peter’s successors were sinful, the keys to the Kingdom of Heaven were lost on their account? That, in short, the gates of hell prevailed against the Church, if only for a period of time, until it was restored by the great reformers and carried out by you and those who practice your beliefs? If that is the case, then you had better have a talk with Jesus about his nasty habit of lying. If that is not the case, please show me how your beliefs trace back through history all the way to Peter, without being contradicted, pointing out who exactly it was that held the keys to the kingdom.

And, while we’re at it, may I point out a contradiction in your statements. You speak of sinful men not being able to hold the keys to the Kingdom, but you also speak of when Paul rebuked Peter in acts. Do you really think this act was a sin, much less one that leads to death? So did Peter lose the keys? Or is he the one exception to your rule?

I find it rather interesting that with all of the same old attacks against the Church, there are no credible alternatives to the Catholic Church’s history and Apostolic Succession.

 

[Katie1723]

I just recently finished reading “Triumph: The Power And The Glory Of The Catholic Church” It is a 2000 year history of our faith and enlightened me tremendously about the Catholic church.
Contrary to what one poster said about there “only being about 5 popes who led less than saintly lives” way back when there were a lot more than that, owing to the times and what was happening in the world, not that they themselves were “bad”
To me, personally, being part of “the best there is” is like “being home”…safe, secure, and totally loved.
~ Kathy ~

 

[NotWorthy]

Robert, from your verses is seems that anyone who sins can not achieve the kingdom of God. Yet, I’ve indicated that God has continuously used sinners as part of His plan. Would Paul, by his very own words, be prevented from going to heaven, since Paul (as Saul) oversaw the stoning of Stephen? How can we accept inspired words from an obviously sinful man?

I think Robert, you may be trying to reinvent the wheel, so to say.

NotWorthy

 

[Robert_Heibel]

I have posted what I’m writing here, a few times before this, but some how I must not have explained it clear enough.

Now you see John wrote this not me: (1 John 3:3-9) “Surely everyone who entertains this hope must purify himself, must try to be as pure as Christ. Any one who sins at all breaks the law, because to sin is to break the law. Now you know that He appeared in order to abolish sin, and that in Him there is no sin: anyone who lives in God does not sin, and anyone who sins has never seen Him or known Him. My children do not let anyone lead you astray’ to live a holy life is to be holy just as He is holy’ to lead a sinful life is to belong the Devil, since the Devil was a sinner from the beginning. It was to undo all that the Devil has done that the Son of God appeared. No one who has been begotten by God sins: because God’s seed remains inside him, he cannot sin when he has been begotten by God.”

What a person does before they receive the Holy Spirit and gets to know God will be forgiven. What I am trying to share is if a person finds themselves willfully committing sins leading to death: (1 Corinthians 6:9-19) “You know perfectly well that people who do wrong will not inherit the Kingdom of God: people of immoral lives, idolaters, adulterers, catamites, sodomites, thieves, usurers, drunkards, slanders and swindlers will never inherit the kingdom of God.” Paul gave us a list of a few of those sins, and John tells us they have never seen God or do they know Him. Now if a person does know God and willfully commits a sin leading to death (Hebrews 6:4) tells us they can’t be forgiven.

(Hebrews 6:4) “As for those people who were once brought into the light, and tasted the gift from heaven, and received a share of the Holy Spirit, and appreciated the good message of God and the powers of the world to come and yet in spite of this have fallen away it is impossible for that to be renewed a second time. They cannot be repentant if they have willfully crucified the Son of God and openly mocked Him.”

A person may have been baptized a Christian, but hasn’t yet been brought into the light, and tasted the gift from heaven, and received a share of the Holy Spirit, and appreciated the good message of God and the powers of the world to come. What these words tell us is that once a person knows really knows God and has the Holy Spirit (walks in the gifts of the Holy Spirit) they can’t sin. If they do sin (Acts 5:1-5) “There was another man, however, called Ananias. He and his wife, Sapphira, agreed to sell a property; but with his wife’s connivance he kept back part of the proceeds, and brought the rest and presented it to the apostles. Ananias, Peter said ‘how can Satan have so possessed you that you should lie to the Holy Spirit and keep back part of the money from the land? While you still owned the land, wasn’t it yours to keep, and after you had sold it wasn’t the money yours to do with as you liked? What put this scheme into your mind? It is not to men that you have lied, but to God. When he heard this Ananias fell down dead. This Scripture tell us if we have the Holy Spirit in us and have been guided by Him, and still sin we are sinning against the Holy Spirit and that is unforgivable.

 

[Catholic4aReasn]

Robert Heibel:

Their have been many popes who were great sinners. How then could any person who didn’t know God hold the keys to the kingdom of God?

Hi Robert!

God protects the person holding the office of pope from ever officially teaching error. God’s ability to do this is not dependent upon the individual’s personal holiness. It’s entirely God’s doing, not the pope’s.

In Christ,
Nancy

 

[Robert_Heibel]

Catholic4aReasn:

Hi Robert!

God protects the person holding the office of pope from ever officially teaching error. God’s ability to do this is not dependent upon the individual’s personal holiness. It’s entirely God’s doing, not the pope’s.

In Christ,
Nancy

Hello Nancy, Gosh I’ve heard that teaching all my life, but the Bible doesn’t teach us that, and Jesus never told me that, so why do you think that is true? I for one can’t believe that anyone who doesn’t know God, and if they don’t know God must be of Satan, could be part of God’s Kingdom. Wow! That teaching says Satan could be the head of God’s Church and he would lead the church on a straight path. My! My! Doesn’t make much sense does it?

 

[Catholic4aReasn]

Robert Heibel:

Hello Nancy, Gosh I’ve heard that teaching all my life, but the Bible doesn’t teach us that,

Hi Robert!

Sure the Bible teaches us that. The Bible teaches that the teaching offices in the Church are to be passed on to others when they become vacant (Acts 1:20). Peter was made shephard of Christ’s flock by Jesus himself (John 21:17) and this position, this office, of shephard must be, and is, passed on. We know that Peter’s behavior was not always what it should be (Gal 2:11-14), but he did not cease to be the shephard that Christ made him. One’s behavior has no bearing on God’s ability to protect the truth through him. Nothing in scripture suggests that it does.

and Jesus never told me that

Jesus doesn’t personally tell individuals objective truths. Nothing in scripture suggests that this is the case and the vast array of conflicting and and contradictory truths held among Christians proves that Jesus doesn’t work this way.

I for one can’t believe that anyone who doesn’t know God, and if they don’t know God must be of Satan, could be part of God’s Kingdom. Wow! That teaching says Satan could be the head of God’s Church and he would lead the church on a straight path. My! My! Doesn’t make much sense does it

God can protect His truth through anyone. Nothing is impossible for God. This is exactly why an individual’s personal holiness has no effect on the passing on of the truth. It’s all about God, not the human being holding the office.

In Christ,
Nancy

 

[Robert_Heibel]

Robert Heibel:

Hello Nancy, Gosh I’ve heard that teaching all my life, but the Bible doesn’t teach us that, and Jesus never told me that, so why do you think that is true? I for one can’t believe that anyone who doesn’t know God, and if they don’t know God must be of Satan, could be part of God’s Kingdom. Wow! That teaching says Satan could be the head of God’s Church and he would lead the church on a straight path. My! My! Doesn’t make much sense does it?

Hi Nancy,

Show me where in the Bible it says that Peter was told to pass on his office, and where Jesus wouldn’t tell us “objectives truths”, (Paul sure would disagree with your statement),

(Matthew 7:21) “It is not those who say to me, ‘Lord, Lord’, who will enter the kingdom of Heaven but the person who does the will of My Father in Heaven. When the day comes many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, work many miracles in your name?’ Then I shall tell them to their faces: I have never known you; away from me, you evil men!”
You are trying to tell me that someone that Jesus never new could be the head of His Church???

 

[Ignatius]

Robert Heibel:

And thanks to the Church, no one was able to until the sixteenth century when Luther tried to remove several books from the New Testament, even calling certain Sacred Scriptures an “epistle of straw”. Disgraceful!

 

[Catholic4aReasn]

Hi Robert!
Robert Heibel:

Show me where in the Bible it says that Peter was told to pass on his office,

*Acts 1:20 *"For it is written in the Book of Psalms: Let his dwelling become desolate; let no one live in it; and Let someone else take his position.

and where Jesus wouldn’t tell us “objectives truths”, (Paul sure would disagree with your statement),

A scripture which states “Jesus won’t tell individual Christians all objective truths” isn’t necessary. Simple observation of the vast array of conflicting and contradictory “truths” held by sincere Christians is proof positive that Jesus doesn’t teach each individual Christian those truths that are universally true. Which scripture do you believe supports the idea that Jesus, personally and individually, reveals objective truths? How do you reconcile that with the fact that Christians who believe that same thing hold conflicting and contradictory truths?

I don’t think Paul would disagree at all. Paul’s experience on the road to Damascus certainly isn’t the norm. It never again happened to another person. Nothing Paul ever said seems to suggest that Jesus told him that his experience would be the norm for all Christians.

(Matthew 7:21) “It is not those who say to me, ‘Lord, Lord’, who will enter the kingdom of Heaven but the person who does the will of My Father in Heaven. When the day comes many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, work many miracles in your name?’ Then I shall tell them to their faces: I have never known you; away from me, you evil men!”
You are trying to tell me that someone that Jesus never new could be the head of His Church???

Yes. Again, it’s all about what God can do, not about what the individual can, cannot, or has not done. You seem to be putting more power on the individual than deserves to be there. It’s all, completely, totally, entirely and 100% about God and what He can do. Nothing is impossible for God.

In Christ,
Nancy

 

[Robert_Heibel]

Ignatius:

And thanks to the Church, no one was able to until the sixteenth century when Luther tried to remove several books from the New Testament, even calling certain Sacred Scriptures an “epistle of straw”. Disgraceful!

You know I believe if someone says something over and over again, no matter how far from the truth it may be, some people will think it is in fact true.

So don’t tell me something that you can’t back up, just because you say something doesn’t make it true.

Show me!

 

[E.E.N.S]

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1tabledotcom
*As a protestant, and a Lutheran at that, I was always brought up to consider the Catholic Church’s literal translation of St. Peter as the Rock to be ill-placed.

And as a Christian (and soon-to-be convert) I’d say that part really isn’t as important as what follows.

Is this not the meat in the passage? Reguardless of Peter as the rock or not, the keys to heaven were given to him. Christ gave Peter the authority there (if nowhere else) to “bind”.*

adnauseum:

I agree with you completely. I think that’s the key to the whole thing.

LOL, you said “key.”

 

[lightoftheworld]

Robert Heibel:

I have posted what I’m writing here, a few times before this, but some how I must not have explained it clear enough.

Now you see John wrote this not me: (1 John 3:3-9).

What a person does before they receive the Holy Spirit and gets to know God will be forgiven. What I am trying to share is if a person finds themselves willfully committing sins leading to death: (1 Corinthians 6:9-19) “You know perfectly well that people who do wrong will not inherit the Kingdom of God: people of immoral lives, idolaters, adulterers, catamites, sodomites, thieves, usurers, drunkards, slanders and swindlers will never inherit the kingdom of God.” Paul gave us a list of a few of those sins, and John tells us they have never seen God or do they know Him. Now if a person does know God and willfully commits a sin leading to death (Hebrews 6:4) tells us they can’t be forgiven.

(Hebrews 6:4) “As for those people who were once brought into the light, and tasted the gift from heaven, and received a share of the Holy Spirit, and appreciated the good message of God and the powers of the world to come and yet in spite of this have fallen away it is impossible for that to be renewed a second time. They cannot be repentant if they have willfully crucified the Son of God and openly mocked Him.”

A person may have been baptized a Christian, but hasn’t yet been brought into the light, and tasted the gift from heaven, and received a share of the Holy Spirit, and appreciated the good message of God and the powers of the world to come. What these words tell us is that once a person knows really knows God and has the Holy Spirit (walks in the gifts of the Holy Spirit) they can’t sin. If they do sin (Acts 5:1-5) This Scripture tell us if we have the Holy Spirit in us and have been guided by Him, and still sin we are sinning against the Holy Spirit and that is unforgivable.

Robert, I want to sincerely congratulate you for finding the truth that nobody else in Christianity has ever understood, until you came along. Wow, Robert, we should all go join you in your First Church of the *Recently Discovered *(2005) One True Interpretation of the Bible…

You mention the quote in Hebrews. How do you know your interpretation of the Bible is correct? Did Jesus tell you? Your demanding us to have Jesus personally tell us something, so we get to demand the same from you. I really need to know, because you are getting messages from Jesus, then we need to listen to you a little more. Take that back, A LOT MORE.

As Catholics, we test every wind of doctrine that comes around. If it’s not what the Apostles taught, we reject it. You are committing the heresy of Donatism, which taught that Sacraments and Leadership positions of the Church depend on the worthiness of the minister. That’s the mistake your making. You need to do your homework, and read up on why Donatism does not work. It’s simple, it leads to anarchy. That’s what sola-scriptura does. It leads to anarchy.

Without trying to be deliberately offensive Robert, you must understand that the Catholic Church has been here longer than any government, any other institution on earth. Is your point that Pope’s can be sinners? We second that. Ever seen a Pope say Mass? He asks for God’s mercy too.

But I think the real nature of your question comes from your understanding of the nature of the Church. You believe the Church is the invisible conglomerate of born-again believers. Catholics believe the Church, is, yes, a sacrament of interior union with God through Christ, but it is the visible Sacrament. Does being a Catholic save? No. It’s dwelling in the Father’s charity, through Christ, in the power of the Spirit. A man is justified by works, and not by faith alone.

We can’t know if someone knows God or not. So we recognize that if one has had Sacraments, obviously one has the grace to be a good Christian if they want to be. Does this protect Pope’s from sinning? No. But again, every Pope has been baptized. But your belief is that if someone sins, they never knew God.

I would personally ask you: can you go to a poor peasant who is illiterate in the third world and guarantee them that your interpretation of the Bible is correct?

If you can’t, then keep your mouth shut and stop preaching, until you are 110% sure before the Face of Almighty God your not going to be leading people from the frying pan to the fire. That’s what I wish more Protestants would do. Unfortunately, most of them won’t try that hard.

With all sincere and due respect and asking God to bless you,

Peter