Is the CC elitist and standing in the way of bringing believers into full communion with Christ?

[Lalting]

I think each church/religious organisation has the right to set what rules it regards as essential for people to join and remain members in good standing; after all, secular clubs and organisations have much the same. Joining a community and living in a community always means you have to accept certain rules when you sign up; I don’t think there is anything wrong with the CC setting its own rules. If you don’t like it, you can simply refuse to join, or just leave and move on.

Greg27 thank you for your response,

I would not say that salvation and eternal life as can only be achieved through Jesus Christ is like a social club. Catholics believe that being members of the Church is the only way to get to Jesus Christ. If this is true, should the Catholic Church be removing as many barriers as scripturally possible to bring people towards the Church and thus towards Jesus Christ?

Is not the first step, in bringing people to Jesus Christ, making people feel accepted? Is this not what Jesus taught by telling us to help the sinners and not just the righteous? In many ways I would say that the Protestant Churches in America and light-years beyond the Catholic Church in this regard.

Lalting

 

[cyberjacques]

I would not say that salvation and eternal life as can only be achieved through Jesus Christ is like a social club. Catholics believe that being members of the Church is the only way to get to Jesus Christ. If this is true, should the Catholic Church be removing as many barriers as scripturally possible to bring people towards the Church and thus towards Jesus Christ?

What barriers? You just said yourself, bring people to the Church and thus towards Jesus. People are free to join the Church. Nothing is stopping them. There are no barriers between you and Jesus except those that you choose to erect.

Is not the first step, in bringing people to Jesus Christ, making people feel accepted? Is this not what Jesus taught by telling us to help the sinners and not just the righteous? In many ways I would say that the Protestant Churches in America and light-years beyond the Catholic Church in this regard.

Jesus also allowed His disciples to leave when they could not accept what He was trying to teach them. He refused to change the Truth just to appeal to more people. And just as He helped those sinners who were willing to repent, He also condemned those who would not repent. Jesus is ready to accept anyone, but not everyone is ready to accept Him. And the general trend of Protestant churches drifting further from the Truth in an effort to appeal to more people (which ironically tends to drive away more people than it attracts) is basically lowering your standards to make others feel better about themselves. Catholics don’t just want people to FEEL better, we want them to BECOME better.

 

[Contarini]

Edwin,

 That is interesting that with your affiliation being Episcopalian, you would argue that it makes no sense not to actually welcome everyone.

I did not say that. I said that your specific argument made no sense. If you “welcome everyone” you are saying that no one in fact needs to become Catholic. It is illogical to argue that this is a means of persuading them to become Catholic.

I can think of two coherent arguments for open communion (at least):

1. The people in question (whether we are talking about unbaptized people or about baptized people who are not members of our Church) do not need to join our particular Church in order to have a relationship with God. By welcoming them into communion, we are affirming their existing relationship with God.
2. Communion is (to use an 18th-century Protestant phrase) a “converting ordinance,” a means of grace that should be denied to no one. It should draw people toward church membership, but should not be predicated on it.

I think your position is closer to no. 2. But it’s still not the same. You didn’t say “we should give people communion so that they will receive grace.” You argued that giving them communion would make them “not feel like outsiders,” and that this would persuade them to cease to be outsiders. And that *specific *argument makes no sense whatsoever. If you are trying to make people not feel like outsiders, then it should be because you don’t think they are outsiders, which means that you don’t think they need to join the Church (since in any meaningful sense they already belong to it). If you are trying to bring them into the Church, then surely it is a prerequisite that they should know and feel themselves to be outside of it.

While I do not know about the Episcopalian tradition, it has been my experience that protestant churches put a card in the pews describing what their belief is in communion. If you believe that; you are welcome to participate, irregardless of your affiliation.

I have only encountered this in Lutheran churches. I’m curious: what other Protestant churches have you seen doing this?

The current policy of the Episcopal Church is that all baptized Christians who regularly receive communion in another church are welcome to receive communion. My former rector (who has now left the Episcopal Church for a more conservative Anglican church) used to add the requirement of believing in the Real Presence. Many other priests practice completely open communion, inviting everyone to receive whether they are Christians or not. But neither of these is the official stance of the Episcopal Church.

Until the 1960s (I believe), both the Episcopal Church and the Church of England required confirmation by a bishop (in apostolic succession) as a requirement for communion. The shift was caused by a shift in our understanding of how one becomes a full member of the Church–confirmation used to be seen as the sacrament that completes baptism, but now it is generally given a more peripheral status, and baptism is seen as the sacrament that brings one into the Church. Therefore, any baptized, practicing Christian is offered communion. Your Church has a different understanding of how one becomes a full member of the Church. We agree that only people who are full, practicing members of the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church should receive communion.

As I said, many Episcopal priests (and laity, of course) disagree with the official position and advocate completely open communion. This is a major disagreement within the Episcopal Church, though unfortunately it’s been overshadowed by the debate over homosexuality. The two issues are not unrelated, since the same slogan of “radical inclusion” is used by the liberals in both issues.

A big difference between the Catholic Church and a protestant church is that Catholics say you must believe in the visible church in addition to the invisible church when “holy catholic Church” is stated.

Anglicans believe in a visible Church (as do Presbyterians–I’ll let Lutherans speak for themselves, since I find Lutheran ecclesiology rather confusing!).

Edwin

 

[PaulDupre]

Jesus also allowed His disciples to leave when they could not accept what He was trying to teach them. He refused to change the Truth just to appeal to more people. And just as He helped those sinners who were willing to repent, He also condemned those who would not repent. Jesus is ready to accept anyone, but not everyone is ready to accept Him. And the general trend of Protestant churches drifting further from the Truth in an effort to appeal to more people (which ironically tends to drive away more people than it attracts) is basically lowering your standards to make others feel better about themselves. Catholics don’t just want people to FEEL better, we want them to BECOME better.

You nailed it. Super post!

Paul

 

[Lalting]

I have only encountered this in Lutheran churches. I’m curious: what other Protestant churches have you seen doing this?

Edwin,

Thank you for your detailed response.  You nailed that my primary experience with protestants has been with the Lutheran Church - Missouri Synod and the Evangelical Lutheran Church of America.  I am not well versed in other protestant traditions.

 I agree with you, my argument is closer to the 2nd one that you listed.  I am trying to explore the aspect of creating a more open communion to help bring people towards the Catholic Church and help them on their journey to full communion.  I am exploring this because it seems to be a sticking point that alienates protestants from even looking at the Catholic Church.

Lalting

 

[cyberjacques]

I agree with you, my argument is closer to the 2nd one that you listed. I am trying to explore the aspect of creating a more open communion to help bring people towards the Catholic Church and help them on their journey to full communion. I am exploring this because it seems to be a sticking point that alienates protestants from even looking at the Catholic Church.

To be honest, I’ve never actually heard this argument brought up by any Protestants before. It has been my experience that Protestants reject even the possibility of the Catholic Church being an option because of three things that they are falsely taught to believe about Catholics (among a long list of others). First, they are taught that Catholics think they can earn their way into heaven. Second, they are taught that Catholics worship the Virgin Mary and the other saints the same way that they worship God. And third, they are taught that Catholics don’t believe in or read the Bible, relying instead on the Pope’s “scripture”. None of these are even remotely true, yet they believe it, and in all fairness, if I thought that Catholics believed those things, I wouldn’t have joined either. The only times I’ve seen Protestants bring up the subject of the Eucharist is when they are trying to refute Catholic beliefs regarding it, and trying to use it as further evidence of the Church’s failings. I’ve never heard anyone argue that Catholics should be less strict in their handling of the Eucharist. Have you been presented with this argument by Protestants, or are you theorizing on your own that this could be an issue?

 

[1ke]

The CC has always stated that it welcomes everyone to the table to share is the graces that Jesus Christ has to bestow. However, when the CC says everyone, it really only means those who have been raised in the CC or have completed RCIA.

This is purely someone blowing smoke.

How do you convince someone to join the holy catholic church, when the CC makes them feel like outsiders?

The Catholic Church doesn’t “make” anyone feel like an “outsider.” A person’s own prejudices, expectations, experiences, and disposition may do so, but certainly not the Church.

If you believe that the host really is the body and blood of Christ, while proclaiming belief in the same creeds, sing the same songs, but are still uncertain if todays CC is really the church Christ established; should the sacrifice really be denied?

Absolutely.

Is not everyone growing in their faith and in need of continued grace for that growth?

Yes. Everyone is in need of grace. And, God gives them sufficient grace to seek the Truth of the Catholic Faith-- it’s up to them to accept the Truth.

But, until they do, they should be protected from eating and drinking the Body and Blood unworthily lest they bring wrath upon themselves. (See Corinthians).

Could allowing people access to the sacrament with proper beliefs like first communicants, especially interfaith couples who are struggling with finding a common church home, promote conversion to the CC rather than promote hatred of the CC because of its elitism?

If anyone hates the CC for “elitism” that’s their problem and trying to remake the Church’s theology and doctrine to satisfy them is not the way to bring them to the Truth. That is the Episcopal Church’s method, and see where it’s gotten them. Placating people at the expense of the Truth does not work.

Thank you, I am trying to understand barriers to believing the the CC is the one holy and apostolic church that is both visible and invisible as opposed to worship God as part of the universal, invisible catholic church.

As a former Episcopalian who has been Catholic for 16 years, I will tell you the barriers are internal to the person, not external.