K
KathleenElsie
Guest
Ask the guy that wears a suit and not just jeans and a polo shirt if he gets interrupted. I’ll bet he will say no. I have seen this myself in men young and old.
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J
johnnydigit
Guest
instead of offending, let me repeat to you what you just asked in another way,
the [insert Catholic devotion x] unfailingly promotes a deeper love of God? this is presumptuous, i think. how might one know that the -x] is not attached to a heart that’s burning with love of God?
it can be a sin to interrupt someone in prayer, let alone during Mass. the church should have an atmosphere of prayer and quiet. therefore, any compliment would be made before or after Mass, when greeting each other outside of the church.
M
monicatholic
Guest
ok, johnny. your point is almost entirely made, except that I had qualified “unfailingly”. still, mine is a quibble. you make a good point that devotions are ordered to deeper love of God. still, we can hope that for every heart attached to uncovered head, therein is practiced varied and numerous other devotions instead.
as for the interruption of prayer potentially being a sin, please explain the derivation of this assertion. to the general idea of complimenting a woman’s modest attire, again, i think it is the antithesis to the hoped-for outcome of modesty-- to call less attention to oneself.
in this, I’m beginning to see the only personally compelling reason I might cover my head during Mass-- and that is to be left to pray for a few more moments than i normally can. (ours is not a glad-handing parish, but my family still does attract a certain amount of attention before and especially after Mass.)
for me, though, i suspect all benefits will cancel out, as a headcovering might garner for me a few moments solitude, traded in for an entire Mass with Little One (pictured below) thinking it’s a great game to tug on it and play with it.
J
johnnydigit
Guest
sounds like you have the opportunity to be a good example for your fellow parishioners. sometimes we are called to lead and speak up (with or w/o words) even when we don’t want to…
i heard being “poor in spirit” can be when you want to do something to bring you closer to God, but you must sacrifice doing it for the sake of another. e.g. St. Francis broke his fast by eating a meal with a brother who thought he was dying because he could not handle St. Francis’ extreme fasting.
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interrupting someone in prayer being a sin - i forget, it was mentioned to me a while ago. it’s a pretty broad statement with many exceptions so i just follow it as a general guideline and to not interrupt someone unless it is urgent.
i heard being “poor in spirit” can be when you want to do something to bring you closer to God, but you must sacrifice doing it for the sake of another. e.g. St. Francis broke his fast by eating a meal with a brother who thought he was dying because he could not handle St. Francis’ extreme fasting.
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interrupting someone in prayer being a sin - i forget, it was mentioned to me a while ago. it’s a pretty broad statement with many exceptions so i just follow it as a general guideline and to not interrupt someone unless it is urgent.
E
E.E.N.S
Guest
I made a post on one of my blogs a year ago entitled The Veil, derived from a book in progress called:
The Unveiled Woman
by Jackie Freppon
During the second Vatican Council, a mob of reporters waited for news after a council meeting. One of them asked Msgr. Annibale Bugnini, then secretary of the Vatican Congregation for Divine Worship, if women still had to wear a headcover in the churches. His response was that the Bishops were considering other issues, and that women’s veils were not on the agenda.
The next day, the international press annouced throughout the world that women did not have to wear the veil anymore. A few days later, Msgr. Bugnini told the press he was misquoted and women still had to wear the veil. But the press did not retract the error, and many women stopped wearing the veil as out of confusion and because of pressure from feminist groups.
Before the revision in 1983, Canon law had stated that women must cover their heads “…especially when they approach the holy table” (can.1262.2). But in order to reduce such a growing collection of books, the new version of Canon law was subjected to concise changes. In the process, mention of head coverings was omitted.
In 1970, Pope Paul VI promulgated the Roman Missal, ignoring mention of women’s veils. But at the time the missal was published, it didn’t seem necessary to keep mandatory such an obvious and universal practice, even if it no longer had a “normative” value (Inter insigniores, #4).
And mention in Canon law or the Roman Missal is not necessary to the continuation of the tradition, for it is rooted in Scripture and has been practiced ever since the early Church. Indeed, Pope John Paul II affirmed that the real sources of Canon law are the Sacred Tradition, especially as reflected in the ecumenical councils, and Sacred Scripture (O.S.V. Catholic Encyclopedia, p 169).
SCRIPTURE
Sacred Scripture presents several reasons for wearing the veil. St. Paul tells us in his first letter to the Corinthians (11: 1-16) that we must cover our heads because it is Sacred Tradition commanded by our Lord Himself and entrusted to Paul: “The things I am writing you are the Lord’s commandments” (1 Cor 14: 37).
DIVINE HIERARCHY
God has established a hierarchy, in both the natural and the religious spheres, in which the female is subject to the male. St. Paul writes in 1st Corinthians: "But I would have you know that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is the man, and the head of Christ is God (1 Cor 11: 3).
And, in the institution of marriage, God gave the husband authority over the wife, but responsibility to her as well. Not only is he the family’s decision maker, but he is also responsible for the material and spiritual welfare of his wife and children. Man is not in this position to enslave or belittle the wife.
As the Bride (the Church) is subject to Jesus, women must wear the veil as a sign that they are subjected to men: “Let wives be subject to their husbands as to the Lord; because a husband is head of the wife, just as Christ is head of the Church” (Eph 5: 22-23). The man represent Jesus, therefore he should not cover his head.
However, this subjection is not derogatory to women, because in God’s kingdom everyone is subjected to a higher authority: “For as the women is from the man, so also is the man through the woman, but all things are from God” (1 Cor 11:12).
Furthermore, the symbolism of the veil takes that which is invisible, the order established by God, and makes it visible. In the history of the Church, priestly vestments have played a similar role.
WOMEN’S HONOR
It is an honor to wear the veil. But by publicly repudiating it, a woman dishonors her feminine dignity, her sign of female subjection, just as the military officer is dishonored when he is stripped of his decorations.
The Roman Pontifical contains the imposing ceremonial of the consecration of the veils: “Receive teh sacred veil, that thou mayest be known to have despised the world, and to be truly, humbly, and with all thy heart subject to Christ as his bride; and may He defend thee from all evil, and bring thee to life eternal” (Pontificale Romanum; de benedictione).
St. Paul says an unveiled woman is a dishonor: “But every woman praying or prophesying with her head uncovered disgraces her head, for it is the same as if she were shaven” (1 Cor 11:5).
there is more, much more where that came from here.
The Unveiled Woman
by Jackie Freppon
During the second Vatican Council, a mob of reporters waited for news after a council meeting. One of them asked Msgr. Annibale Bugnini, then secretary of the Vatican Congregation for Divine Worship, if women still had to wear a headcover in the churches. His response was that the Bishops were considering other issues, and that women’s veils were not on the agenda.
The next day, the international press annouced throughout the world that women did not have to wear the veil anymore. A few days later, Msgr. Bugnini told the press he was misquoted and women still had to wear the veil. But the press did not retract the error, and many women stopped wearing the veil as out of confusion and because of pressure from feminist groups.
Before the revision in 1983, Canon law had stated that women must cover their heads “…especially when they approach the holy table” (can.1262.2). But in order to reduce such a growing collection of books, the new version of Canon law was subjected to concise changes. In the process, mention of head coverings was omitted.
In 1970, Pope Paul VI promulgated the Roman Missal, ignoring mention of women’s veils. But at the time the missal was published, it didn’t seem necessary to keep mandatory such an obvious and universal practice, even if it no longer had a “normative” value (Inter insigniores, #4).
And mention in Canon law or the Roman Missal is not necessary to the continuation of the tradition, for it is rooted in Scripture and has been practiced ever since the early Church. Indeed, Pope John Paul II affirmed that the real sources of Canon law are the Sacred Tradition, especially as reflected in the ecumenical councils, and Sacred Scripture (O.S.V. Catholic Encyclopedia, p 169).
SCRIPTURE
Sacred Scripture presents several reasons for wearing the veil. St. Paul tells us in his first letter to the Corinthians (11: 1-16) that we must cover our heads because it is Sacred Tradition commanded by our Lord Himself and entrusted to Paul: “The things I am writing you are the Lord’s commandments” (1 Cor 14: 37).
DIVINE HIERARCHY
God has established a hierarchy, in both the natural and the religious spheres, in which the female is subject to the male. St. Paul writes in 1st Corinthians: "But I would have you know that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is the man, and the head of Christ is God (1 Cor 11: 3).
And, in the institution of marriage, God gave the husband authority over the wife, but responsibility to her as well. Not only is he the family’s decision maker, but he is also responsible for the material and spiritual welfare of his wife and children. Man is not in this position to enslave or belittle the wife.
As the Bride (the Church) is subject to Jesus, women must wear the veil as a sign that they are subjected to men: “Let wives be subject to their husbands as to the Lord; because a husband is head of the wife, just as Christ is head of the Church” (Eph 5: 22-23). The man represent Jesus, therefore he should not cover his head.
However, this subjection is not derogatory to women, because in God’s kingdom everyone is subjected to a higher authority: “For as the women is from the man, so also is the man through the woman, but all things are from God” (1 Cor 11:12).
Furthermore, the symbolism of the veil takes that which is invisible, the order established by God, and makes it visible. In the history of the Church, priestly vestments have played a similar role.
WOMEN’S HONOR
It is an honor to wear the veil. But by publicly repudiating it, a woman dishonors her feminine dignity, her sign of female subjection, just as the military officer is dishonored when he is stripped of his decorations.
The Roman Pontifical contains the imposing ceremonial of the consecration of the veils: “Receive teh sacred veil, that thou mayest be known to have despised the world, and to be truly, humbly, and with all thy heart subject to Christ as his bride; and may He defend thee from all evil, and bring thee to life eternal” (Pontificale Romanum; de benedictione).
St. Paul says an unveiled woman is a dishonor: “But every woman praying or prophesying with her head uncovered disgraces her head, for it is the same as if she were shaven” (1 Cor 11:5).
there is more, much more where that came from here.
A
ancilla_Domini
Guest
Very informative! Thanks for posting that. 
M
monicatholic
Guest
EENS,
thanks for taking time for such an in-depth reply.
in peace and goodwill, i assert that the Church has had many opportunities to reiterate the head covering requirement and hasn’t doen so. it’s exclusion speaks much more for the repeal of the requirement than for the implied continuation of such.
here’s how Catholic Answers responded to the question: (please forgive if this is a repeat piece of info. this thread is long and i’ve read only a scattered six or seven of the twenty pages of responses)
thanks for taking time for such an in-depth reply.
in peace and goodwill, i assert that the Church has had many opportunities to reiterate the head covering requirement and hasn’t doen so. it’s exclusion speaks much more for the repeal of the requirement than for the implied continuation of such.
here’s how Catholic Answers responded to the question: (please forgive if this is a repeat piece of info. this thread is long and i’ve read only a scattered six or seven of the twenty pages of responses)
my personal argument is not with the value of the head coveing at Mass. my personal complaint is with the assertion the requirement is stiff effective. worse still, is the implication the Church has failed in its duty by relaxing the requirement.
P
Pax_Vobiscum_57
Guest
I, too am surprised at how many replies there are to this thread. And it appears to be a hot button issue.
Bottom line is, we all are of different spiritualities. Some are more contemplative, some are charismatic. Some of us are modeled after St. Terese, some after Bl. Mother Teresa. Whether you cover or don’t cover is a totally personal issue. I am called to it. When I attend Mass with different family members, some have asked me not to cover at their parishes, and I abide by their wishes. Jesus knows my heart, and my calling is to be one of the lowly ones. If I go to an unfamiliar parish, I will cover, but sit in the back, so as not to distract.
I just wish some of the women here wouldn’t see it as a step backward. It is no such thing.
Bottom line is, we all are of different spiritualities. Some are more contemplative, some are charismatic. Some of us are modeled after St. Terese, some after Bl. Mother Teresa. Whether you cover or don’t cover is a totally personal issue. I am called to it. When I attend Mass with different family members, some have asked me not to cover at their parishes, and I abide by their wishes. Jesus knows my heart, and my calling is to be one of the lowly ones. If I go to an unfamiliar parish, I will cover, but sit in the back, so as not to distract.
I just wish some of the women here wouldn’t see it as a step backward. It is no such thing.
L
lizaanne
Guest
I’ve considered this before as well - but if you sit in the back and need to walk all the way to the front to receive Communion, you have to walk past every single person in the Church, there and back.
So I’ve decided to just stick with sitting near the front as I usually do. Just a throught. 
I’m shocked that anyone would ask you to not cover your head as a visitor - that just made me gasp out loud! I’m sorry you had to endure that, it would personally break my heart if I were asked to put aside my personal devotional practice because someone else had a problem with it.
I think I would have to strongly consider Mass at another location, and meet up with the people afterward so as to not embarass them with my covered head.~Liza
P
Philothea53
Guest
I was a lector at my Parish and asked to be taken off the schedule when someone told me that wearing my veil to read put all the attention on me (said in a way that made me think the person thought I was looking for attention) and not on the words I was reading. That’s okay - I feel more comfortable in the pew anywayI’ve considered this before as well - but if you sit in the back and need to walk all the way to the front to receive Communion, you have to walk past every single person in the Church, there and back.
I’m shocked that anyone would ask you to not cover your head as a visitor - that just made me gasp out loud! I’m sorry you had to endure that, it would personally break my heart if I were asked to put aside my personal devotional practice because someone else had a problem with it.
~Liza
L
lizaanne
Guest
That’s exactly what I would have done as well. Thank you very much, but I’ll keep my devotion and sit quietly in the pew if that would make everyone more comfortable.I was a lector at my Parish and asked to be taken off the schedule when someone told me that wearing my veil to read put all the attention on me (said in a way that made me think the person thought I was looking for attention) and not on the words I was reading. That’s okay - I feel more comfortable in the pew anyway
~Liza
C
Cathryn
Guest
I guess that could have been said when woman first went up to be lectors. People could have been distracted looking at a woman up there instead of listening to the Word of God. Seeing a woman with a veil on shouldn’t be any harder to deal with.I was a lector at my Parish and asked to be taken off the schedule when someone told me that wearing my veil to read put all the attention on me (said in a way that made me think the person thought I was looking for attention) and not on the words I was reading. That’s okay - I feel more comfortable in the pew anyway
I would just as soon stay in the pew myself. At daily Mass however, sometimes the priest will motion for me to go up and do the readings if no lectors are at Mass. He doesn’t seem to have a problem with the fact that I have a veil on my head.
B
beckers
Guest
Me too. the only time i don’t wear it because it might be a “distraction” is at weddings.I am going to be a bridesmaid a few times this year and i don’t think i can find a veil to match and the brides asked me before i started wearing a veil.I was a lector at my Parish and asked to be taken off the schedule when someone told me that wearing my veil to read put all the attention on me (said in a way that made me think the person thought I was looking for attention) and not on the words I was reading. That’s okay - I feel more comfortable in the pew anyway
C
Cathryn
Guest
Usually I wear a chapel veil. Yesterday, I went to the Spanish Mass which I don’t normally go to, but because my husband was sick, and I needed to go to the closest church, and this was the most convenient time. I decided not to wear the chapel veil to be less conspicuous. No one wears a veil at the Spanish Mass. I decided to instead wear a simple beret. The weather was fierce anyway here in the Pacific Northwest.
I got to Mass about twenty minutes early, and prayed with the beret on my head in the last pew. A few minutes later a Mexican man who I recognized from daily Mass entered. He got down on his knees and walked on his knees down the center isle up to the front of the Church and worshiped the Blessed Sacrament. I felt terrible that I was self conscience about wearing my veil. Right then and there I took off my dual purpose beret, and switched to my veil, which I keep in my pocket. I felt totally humbled by this simple man’s faith. I don’t feel called to walk on my knees, but I do feel called to wear my chapel veil.
Those who struggle to be saints will always have church folk accuse them of being holier than thou, and only wanting to call attention to themselves. Most saints who we read about have these accusations from their families and friends, and yet these are the people the Church says are our models. I want to be one who is struggling to be a saint.
I got to Mass about twenty minutes early, and prayed with the beret on my head in the last pew. A few minutes later a Mexican man who I recognized from daily Mass entered. He got down on his knees and walked on his knees down the center isle up to the front of the Church and worshiped the Blessed Sacrament. I felt terrible that I was self conscience about wearing my veil. Right then and there I took off my dual purpose beret, and switched to my veil, which I keep in my pocket. I felt totally humbled by this simple man’s faith. I don’t feel called to walk on my knees, but I do feel called to wear my chapel veil.
Those who struggle to be saints will always have church folk accuse them of being holier than thou, and only wanting to call attention to themselves. Most saints who we read about have these accusations from their families and friends, and yet these are the people the Church says are our models. I want to be one who is struggling to be a saint.
L
lizaanne
Guest
Cathryn - that is an amazing story. Sure does put things in perspective.
Thanks for telling.
~Liza
Thanks for telling.
~Liza
B
beckers
Guest
Thank you for your post. My roommate has been hearing me talk about this thread lately and we both agree with your post!
My the way do you know how is awesome it is to live with another Catholic women who also wears a covering? Totally cool. We even have a grotto with a statue of Mary to help us remind ourselves to be like her.
A
ancilla_Domini
Guest
I agree… Thank you for sharing this beautiful story.
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Pax_Vobiscum_57
Guest
That is a beautiful testimony! Isn’t it beautiful how God gives us the big picture when we aren’t looking for it? (((((Cathryn)))))I agree… Thank you for sharing this beautiful story.
S
sneakers
Guest
I hope it changes too. I don’t care what other women choose to do. I, however, am increasingly drawn to the idea of wearing the veil - or some kind of head covering. It is personal. However, I haven’t yet worn one at my OF parish because I fear I would stand out and it would be misinterpreted. I am NOT trying to make a statement. It is just something that has become very important to me. On the rare occasion that I am privileged to attend an EF mass, I am glad to be able to do so.
P
PatienceAndLove
Guest
Perhaps a largish chapel cap would be good?
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