Is the christmas tree evil?

[eam]

Two things:​

1.The Nativity of the Lord was first kept at Rome, in 336, as a liturgical support to the anti-Arian teaching of the Council of Nicea in 325

1. To stop false gods taking up space & time, let the faith of those who believe in the Living & Incarnate & Historical God squeeze them out Instead of using up God’s time, God’s space, God’s creation - let them no longer have time or space (to which they are not entitled in any case ) Christ is the Real, True, Unconquered Sun - so out goes the unreal, non-Christly, “Unconquered Sun”; which is a creature, not its Creator: so it is wholly unfit to be adored

On the issue of paganism in general: Mary, not Isis, is the Mother of God - Isis is a “good dream” of something better yet to come, at best; so out goes she, a non-real “mother of god”, & in comes the real Mother of God, the only one who can truly & rightly be so called.

Out goes Hadad of Damascus - & over his temple, taking up its space, goes a church in honour of St John the Baptist.

Out of the calendar go the gods - in come the saints & martyrs, who are “sons of God” in the “Son of God”

IOW, the Church was not corrupted by the heathen - it was depriving heathenism of oxygen, by taking up what heathenism had no right to in any case. It was carrying war into the enemy’s camp - not succumbing to it.

Don’t people believe that God is great enough to take what men spoil, redeem it from evil, & use it for his own gracious purposes ? The world is not the devil’s - it is Christ the King’s: His, & His Alone. If He redeems it at all - how does His redemption not include time & space, & all that fill them ?

And how does any of this deform Christ or His Gospel ? For a corrupted Church, Christians were very busy destroying temples & shrines.

If the Church was paganised - why did it not keep the Saturnalia ? Why did it fight the feasts in honour of Tammuz, Adonis, Cybele Mother of the Gods, Zeus Marnas, & many, many more ? People do not usually show their zeal for a religion by forbidding it, preaching against it, vandalising its shrines, profaning its holy places, referring to its gods as “devils”, defiling its oracles, etc. The Church can reasonably be accused of anti-pagan bigotry, intolerance, violence, persecution - but not of favouring it in any form.

For more details see (among others):

• Marta Sordi, The Christians in the Roman Empire
• H. Trombley, the Christianisation of the Roman Empire 370-529 ##

Wonderful post!

Elizabeth

 

[Zooey]

I have just put up the Christmas Angel tonight.

I await with bated breath, the verdict as to whether or not angels, too, are “symbols of paganism”.
[sign]
AHEM!!!
See, below!!
[/sign]

[sign]
*PS: She:yup: stays up, too!!.
Regardless of http://bestsmileys.com/expressions/...4.gifhttp://bestsmileys.com/expressions/4.gif …
[/sign]

 

[mercygate]

I have just put up the Christmas Angel tonight.

I await with bated breath, the verdict as to whether or not angels, too, are “symbols of paganism”.
[sign]
AHEM!!!
See, below!!
[/sign]

[sign]
*PS: She:yup: stays up, too!!.
Regardless of http://bestsmileys.com/expressions/...4.gifhttp://bestsmileys.com/expressions/4.gif …
[/sign]

She? In Scripture they are viewed as men.

Certainly, the way angels are typically depicted in art comes from the pagan world:

mud.mm-a3.yimg.com/image/869956596

 

[Zooey]

She? In Scripture they are viewed as men.

Certainly, the way angels are typically depicted in art comes from the pagan world:

mud.mm-a3.yimg.com/image/869956596

You’d have to see this angel!! Definitely:yup: “she”.Long blonde curls? Burgundy velvet & white tulle? With lace & leopard trim??
(Actually, I think that angels have no gender at all, do they? But this is for sure:nope: no St Michael with sword in hand!!)

 

[LilyM]

This thread is still going? :bigyikes:

Give up, tabcom. There is no way having Christmas trees is pagan simply because pagans had them - any more than using wedding rings in a Christian wedding ceremony is pagan because the ancient Romans used them in their wedding ceremonies. Also on the third finger, no less, the vein of which was believed to connect directly to the heart

Along with loads of other wedding customs such as veils, bridesmaids (being a troop of young lassies dressed similarly to the bride) and the ‘carrying over the threshold’ of the bride.

Are you married, tabcom? Do you plan to be? Any of these things form part of your past or future wedding plans? Then begone vile heathen!

 

[mercygate]

You’d have to see this angel!! Definitely:yup: “she”.Long blonde curls? Burgundy velvet & white tulle? With lace & leopard trim??
(Actually, I think that angels have no gender at all, do they? But this is for sure:nope: no St Michael with sword in hand!!)

Right, Zooey: no gender at all. They are pure spirit. But I kind of like the sword.

 

[mystified]

Dunno. I’m getting my Hanukkah bush from a local synagogue .

 

[tabcom]

She? In Scripture (angels) are viewed as men.

**Let’s demystify what an angel is and is not . . .

Mat 24:31
"And He will send forth His angels with A GREAT TRUMPET and THEY WILL GATHER TOGETHER His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.

From the original greek - Aggelos (ang’-el-os)

Definition

1. a messenger, envoy, one who is sent

Noun Masculine Gender.

A person who speaks the Word of God is an angel.

See Smith’s Bible Dictionary; Angels:
searchgodsword.org/dic/sbd/view.cgi?number=T316
**

Certainly, the way angels are typically depicted in art comes from the pagan world

**Correct.

Anything other than a messenger is one’s vain imagination.
**

 

[tabcom]

There is no way having Christmas trees is pagan simply because pagans had them - any more than using wedding rings in a Christian wedding ceremony is pagan

**The unrelated pairing of the tree with wedding rings shows me that you have not been paying attention. Hence, the thread goes on.

One more time:

Originally Posted by corvidae:

It seems that even if the Christmas tree is idolatry, it is different than the idolatry you find in the old testament. If you would admit that . . .

Yes, the christmas tree is idolatry.

IMHO, no. I can not admit that somehow it is different.

Rev. 17:5 – And upon her forehead a name written, Mystery, Babylon the Great, The Mother of harlots and abominations of the earth.

• harlot - Greek : porne-an idolator; prostitute; " to sell"
• abomination - Greek : bdelgma- detestable; to stink

The Harlot of Babylon, the false world religion has corrupted man throughout history with idolatrous worship.

Gen. 11:4 – “They said, Let us make us a name”

• name - Hebrew: Shem- honour; authority conspicuous position

In Gen. 11:4 Babylon rebelled against God; mothering all idol worship, founding their idolatrous system, when they said, “Let us make us a name.” (honor self).

Pride is the foundation of all idolatry. A man is an idol worshippers (of self), when he says, “I will make a name for myself. I am known as an authority (name) by my idols (cars, houses, lands, things.) My position in the community will cause men to look up to me”. This is an abomination. Pride is a stinking smell to God. Christians are to be living, acceptable, (pleasing) sacrifices. (Rom 12:1). Wicked-Spiritual Babylon, mother of idolatry, is the system of “pride” has always been here. It is what will pollute the world at the end of time.

In addition . . .

Luke 12:15 And he (Jesus) said unto them, Take heed, and beware of covetousness: for a man’s life consisteth not in the abundance of the things which he possesseth.

Eph 5:5 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.

Col 3:5 Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry:

Covetousness = Idolatry

covetousness- greek: pleonektes- to want more; greediness

Idolatry = wanting more

Every man is covetous by nature until God deals with him and causes him to repent (turn from self to God). The word devil (daimon) means to distribute fortunes. A covetous man who “wants more” has a devil. Covetousness is the idolatrous worship of self. It is an idolatry as evil as falling down before Baal, the christmas tree, the golden calf, or anyone of the ancient pagan deities of Babylon.

Paul said, “having food and raiment, let us be there with content” (I Tim. 6:8). He also said, “I have learned, in whatsoever state I am, therewith to be content.” (Phil. 4:11).

Men, myself included, are involved in idolatry when they refuse to be content with what they have. Their hearts cry out, “I want more.”

**

 

[LilyM]

**The unrelated pairing of the tree with wedding rings shows me that you have not been paying attention. Hence, the thread goes on.

**

The fact that you referred only to ‘wedding rings’ when I wrote about much more than merely the rings shows that you didn’t pay attention to my post either.

Women in ancient Rome when they married wore veils and surrounded themselves with young girls similarly gowned and veiled (from which come todays bridesmaids). Why? to confuse any evil spirits who may be around to jinx the bride.

Why do we still have bridesmaids today in Christian weddings? Not because they serve any real practical purpose - they don’t. Do we believe, as the ancient Romans did, that demons can jinx weddings? We shouldn’t as Christians, since marriage is a sacrament and protected by God. Is it a nod to the pagan customs, and therefore worship of false gods??

Or is it, in a similar way to the Christmas tree, a symbol of pride or covetousness, our status depending on how many and expensively dressed bridesmaids we have? How is this practice not exactly the same as any mistaken significance placed on a Christmas tree then?

Don’t dismiss my point so glibly and quickly my misguided friend.

 

[tabcom]

What is being undermined, is the Christian’s fredom in Christ: you make him no longer free from the Law; he is brought back into bondage to it. St.Paul warned the churches against exactly this neo-Judaism.

To re-erect the Law which Christ has annulled in His own Person . . . To revive the Law which has died with Christ undermines the Gospel.

**Gottle of Geer . . . I don’t mean to say what I’m about to say in a mean spirit, but you sir are in need of rebuking.

1. Can we but this argument in proper context? It can be found in the 15th Chapter of Acts. At that time, there were some Jewish Christians church leaders that insisted that the gentiles be circumcised in order to be saved. It was Peter, not Paul, that said; “we believe that we (Jews) are saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, in the same way as they (The gentiles).” Acts 15:11

I have not nor will suggest that one must be circumcised inorder to be saved.

1. Regarding your statement “To revive the Law which has died with Christ undermines the Gospel.” This shows woeful ignorants to what Christ said about the Law and must be corrected.

Matt 5:18 “For assuredly, (Jesus) say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the Law till all is fulfilled.”

"The “Jot” is the Hebrew word “Yodh” which is the 10th letter of the Hebrew alphabet. It is also the smallest letter. It’s European or English equivalent is the letter “Y” as in the English term Yahweh or in Hebrew YHVH since there were no vowel’s used in the ancient script.

The word “jot” itself is an English transliteration of “iota” which is the 9th letter of the Greek alphabet. “Iota,” in turn, is the nearest Greek equivalent for the Hebrew yodh.

The “tittle” is the small decorative spur or point on the upper edge of the yodh. If you can imagine a tiny letter with a slightly visible decorative mark.

Tittle is used by Greek grammarians of the accents and diacritical points. It means the little lines or projections by which the Hebrew letters differ from each other. One example would be the difference between the letter L and I. The difference is only one small mark. We use phrases like “the dotting of the i, and the crossing of the t,” and “every iota.”

It is interesting that the Jewish scribes who copied the MT (Massoretic Text) of the Hebrew Bible scrolls paid the greatest attention to the minutiae of detail and such marks attached to each consonant throughout the entire text. They even numbered every letter, word, sentence, paragraph, chapter, section, and scroll to insure that the total equalled that of the text being copied before allowing it to enter the holy synagogue.

The meaning of the passage is very clear. Not even the smallest letter or even its decorative spur will ever disappear from the “God Breathed” Word until all is fulfilled. In fact when heaven and earth are replaced by a new heaven and earth, the Word of the Lord will have accomplished its purpose and will be fulfilled in every detail even to the very letter. "

Cited from bible-history.com/backd2/jot_tittle.html

What died with Christ on the Cross was the rituals.(Col. 2:14)

Humbly submited.
**

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Does this mean, Tab, that you yourself follow every single passage in Exodus, Levititus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy insofar as they relate to “the law” which the Jewish people uphold? Every single one? If not, why not?

 

[tabcom]

Does this mean, Tab, that you yourself follow every single passage in Exodus, Levititus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy insofar as they relate to “the law” which the Jewish people uphold? Every single one? If not, why not?

**I will answer your question. But before my answer takes this thread in a different direction, I have a follow-up question for you Tantum Ergo.

Do you agree with GofG that the Law is done away with?
A simple Yes or No is all I’m looking for.**

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Well, at the risk of sounding Clintonesque, I will say that there is “the Law” and “the law”.

The Law has not and will not pass away, not even a jot or tittle. Just as “heaven and earth shall pass away, but My words will not pass away”, as the words are from “the Word of God” Himself.

But the law can, and has, passed away for Christians by the blood of Christ, as Paul notes in Galatians. Paul is, of course, careful to note that there is a “Law” and a “law”, that the “law” existed as a consequence of the “Law’” (which has existed for all time), and that the “law” was a necessity for the covenant people of Israel and still exists for them until they acknowledge the Messiah, Christ Jesus. While for us as Christians, we live for the “Law”. Now, parts of living for ‘the law’ coincide with parts of living for “the Law”, which is what one would expect. That is why Christians as well as Jews (and in fact all people of whatever time, place, or belief) are subject to "the 10 commandments. Some parts of ‘the law’ are meant to be lived for all time. Some were meant, however, to foreshadow what would come out in “the Law”. Kosher eating was not only to give the Jews a practical advantage in simply living (keeping them from tainted pork etc.), but also to show them that denying a good (food is good) in favor of a better (fasting or obedience to a law for God is even better) was going to be demanded by “the Law”, and would thus prepare the Jews for this.

And of course, the many Jews who converted to Christianity are a ‘justification’ for God’s placement of this dietary law on the Jewish people.

In order not to confuse Christians, God sent Peter the vision of making ‘unclean’ foods clean (and also by extension making salvation for the ‘unchosen’ or Gentiles now available).

So, one need not follow Jewish dietary law in order to obey the Law of God (unless one is Jewish, and of course there is as noted the reason for them to do so until they are saved in Christ).

However, one does need to follow the “law” commands which were and are there because they are ‘catholic’, i.e. universal commands of God’s law and the natural law, written on the heart (even if many are rebelled against today). These would be the 10 commandments among others. And of course, the two greatest commandments of loving God with one’s whole heart, mind, and strength, and loving one’s neighbors as oneself.

 

[cazayoux]

There IS a king of heaven–Christ Jesus. There IS a queen of heaven–Mary. The mother of a King is a queen and most specifically in Jewish tradition the ONLY woman who could be called queen was the mother of the King.

Exactly. We have typology for this from Solomon.

Solomon was David’s (and Bathsheeba’s) son and crowned King. Solomon was known to be the new king because he rode into Jerusalem on His father’s donkey. Those in Jerusalem were very familiar with this when Jesus (“Son of David”) rode in on a donkey. Here, Jesus is recognized as the “son of David” and the new king.

When Solomon becomes king, guess who he crowns as queen? His mother.
Jesus did the same.

Cheers!

michel

 

[FCEGM]

Having lost the bag containing her passport, a friend of mine was stuck for three days in the Munich airport trying to get to her destination (Prague); she never did get there, having to return to the U.S. But, according to this picture of the non-denominational “meditation room” at the airport, some people do, indeed, worship trees - or the remains of one:

roseannetsullivan.smugmug.com/gallery/1977061/2/100698490

 

[Valke2]

Sacred trees were worshiped by many cultic religions.

 

[LilyM]

Having lost the bag containing her passport, a friend of mine was stuck for three days in the Munich airport trying to get to her destination (Prague); she never did get there, having to return to the U.S. But, according to this picture of the non-denominational “meditation room” at the airport, some people do, indeed, worship trees - or the remains of one:

roseannetsullivan.smugmug.com/gallery/1977061/2/100698490

Hehe.

When I was travelling back in '01 I had a stopover at Frankfurt airport. The decor (at least of the section of the airport I was at) was very minimalist - dull grey corrugated metal punctuated by blasts of sick-inducing yellow. Very unnerving. I would’ve been glad to see a bit of tree or anything that looked natural.

 

[Eden]

Sacred trees were worshiped by many cultic religions.

While that’s very interesting, it has nothing to do with Christmas trees. No one worships their Christmas tree.
Pagans used candles and celebrated light in the same time of year that Hannukah falls. I’m not going to accuse Jews of borrowing pagan rituals to celebrate the miracle of the oil. (By the way, the story behind the celebration of Hannukah as found in the book of Maccabees is different and less miraculous from the explanation offered for the celebration of Hannukah that we hear today).

 

[fatherx]

I’ve read some disturbing posts in this thread, the Lord says don’t practice the custom, doesn’t mention worshipping the tree…that’s an obvious no-no. Let’s review.
Jeremiah 10
1Hear ye the word which the LORD speaketh unto you, O house of Israel:
2Thus saith the LORD, Learn not the way of the heathen, and be not dismayed at the signs of heaven; for the heathen are dismayed at them.
3For the customs of the people are vain: for one cutteth a tree out of the forest, the work of the hands of the workman, with the axe.
4They deck it with silver and with gold; they fasten it with nails and with hammers, that it move not.
5They are upright as the palm tree, but speak not: they must needs be borne, because they cannot go. Be not afraid of them; for they cannot do evil, neither also is it in them to do good.

I wanted to share some findings that I have made concerning Jeremiah chapter 10, the first five verses. One critical thing to remember when studying scripture is, that you must pay attention to paragraph marks! A good study bible will have paragraph marks (looks like the mathematical symbol for pi), this is very important, it will prevent you from injecting scripture from other topics into your specific verses of study. When we look at the first five verses of Jeremiah chapter 10, note that the paragraph ends after verse five. I’ve seen where folks will take a verse from later in the text, and try to use it in the interpretation of these five verses, very dangerous.

• In verse one, we are told to listen, because the Lord is speaking to us. (pay attention! The Lord is telling us something important!)
• In verse two, the Lord gives us a commandment, “learn not…”, don’t practice this heathen custom. In this same sentence is a key clue! The heathen are doing this because of a certain sign in the heavens, winter solstice. The winter solstice festival started on the solstice and ended on New Year’s day, what we now call the twelve days of Christmas.
• In verse three, we begin the description, a custom where a tree is cut from the forest.
• In verse four, they fasten the tree upright so that it will not fall over, and it’s lavishly decorated. (When you watch the TV special “Rudolph the red-nosed reindeer”, look for the part where they decorate the tree, Burl Ives sings “Silver & gold”!)
• In verse five, we are told that it is upright and can not speak and can not walk, its needs must be met (you better water it!) And we are told not to be afraid of it, it is a false god and has no power.

It’s easy to see how the Christian tradition of celebrating the birth of Christ on December 25th, and the traditions of winter solstice merged together over time. Because Christmas took place right in the middle of the twelve day festival, people began to associate the tree, the celebration of Christ’s birth, and the twelve days all as one holiday.

Why these verses are not describing a wooden carving, as some have suggested.

1. No wooden carving that I’m aware of is linked with the signs in the heavens (winter solstice).
2. The original Hebrew text uses the word “ets” (found in a Hebrew-Chaldee dictionary as #6086), which means “a tree from it’s firmness”. Clearly this is not a post or plank, but a tree from the forest. (roots give a tree it’s firmness, so we know it’s a tree). Some translations use the words “chisel” and “forming”, this is describing tree trimming, once a very popular part of the tree tradition.
3. Wooden carvings aren’t typically fastened upright, they usually sit on their own.
4. It’s needs must be met, what ‘needs’ does a wooden carving have? You have to add water to the tree.

More info on heathen tree customs: askelm.com/doctrine/d911101.htm
12 day winter solstice festival: candlegrove.com/solstice.html
Setting the date of Christmas in the middle of a pagan festival: wilstar.com/xmas/xmassymb.htm
Hebrew word for tree: htmlbible.com/sacrednamebiblecom/kjvstrongs/STRHEB60.htm