Is the christmas tree evil?

[tabcom]

. . . did the Greeks worship trees . . . and were those trees put into the temple?

**
Yes.

1 Maccabees 1:10 And there came out of them a wicked root Antiochus surnamed Epiphanes, son of Antiochus the king, who had been an hostage at Rome, and he reigned in the hundred and thirty and seventh year of the kingdom of the Greeks.

1 Maccabees 1:11 In those days went there out of Israel wicked men, who persuaded many, saying, Let us go and make a covenant with the heathen that are round about us: for since we departed from them we have had much sorrow.

1 Maccabees 1:20 And after that Antiochus had smitten Egypt, he returned again in the hundred forty and third year, and went up against Israel and Jerusalem with a great multitude,
1 Maccabees 1:21 And entered proudly into the sanctuary, and took away the golden altar, and the candlestick of light, and all the vessels thereof,
1 Maccabees 1:22 And the table of the shewbread, and the pouring vessels, and the vials. and the censers of gold, and the veil, and the crown, and the golden ornaments that were before the temple, all which he pulled off.
1 Maccabees 1:23 He took also the silver and the gold, and the precious vessels: also he took the hidden treasures which he found.
1 Maccabees 1:24 And when he had taken all away, he went into his own land, having made a great massacre, and spoken very proudly.
1 Maccabees 1:41 Moreover king Antiochus wrote to his whole kingdom, that all should be one people,
1 Maccabees 1:42 And every one should leave his laws: so all the heathen agreed according to the commandment of the king.
1 Maccabees 1:43 Yea, many also of the Israelites consented to his religion, and sacrificed unto idols, and profaned the sabbath.
1 Maccabees 1:44 For the king had sent letters by messengers unto Jerusalem and the cities of Juda that they should follow the strange laws of the land,
1 Maccabees 1:45 And forbid burnt offerings, and sacrifice, and drink offerings, in the temple; and that they should profane the sabbaths and festival days:
1 Maccabees 1:46 And pollute the sanctuary and holy people:
1 Maccabees 1:47 Set up altars, and groves, and chapels of idols, and sacrifice swine’s flesh, and unclean beasts

Grove

(1.) Heb. ''asherah, properly a wooden image, or a pillar representing Ashtoreth, a sensual Canaanitish goddess, probably usually set up in a grove (2 Kings 21:7; 23:4). In the Revised Version the word “Asherah” (q.v.) is introduced as a proper noun, the name of the wooden symbol of a goddess, with the plurals Asherim (Ex. 34:13) and Asheroth (Judg. 3:13).

The LXX. have rendered asherah in 2 Chr. 15:16 by “Astarte.” The Vulgate has done this also in Judg. 3:7.

(2.) Heb. ''eshel (Gen. 21:33). In 1 Sam. 22:6 and 31:13 the Authorized Version renders this word by “tree.” In all these passages the Revised Version renders by “tamarisk tree.” It has been identified with the Tamariscus orientalis, five species of which are found in Palestine.

(3.) The Heb. word ''elon, uniformly rendered in the Authorized Version by “plain,” properly signifies a grove or plantation. In the Revised Version it is rendered, pl., “oaks” (Gen. 13:18; 14:13; 18:1; 12:6; Deut. 11:30; Josh. 19:33). In the earliest times groves are mentioned in connection with religious worship. The heathen consecrated groves to particular gods, and for this reason they were forbidden to the Jews (Jer. 17:3; Ezek. 20:28).
biblicalproportions.com/modules/wfsection/article.php?articleid=1855

**

 

[tabcom]

Say **what?/**COLOR]The miracle of Hanukkah is that the oil for the temple lamp, which should have only been sufficient to burn for one day, burned instead for the eight days of purification needed.
Tantum ergo . . . I agree with your synopsis of what Hanukkah is about. However, your synopsis fails to refute my claim that the catalyst that brought Hanukkah about was the Greeks desecration of the Temple and placing the tree in it.

 

[jmcrae]

I see that you were unable to provide the book, chapter and verse where the scriptures tell us not to give gifts. I didn’t think it was in there, so you are conceding that you were wrong, progress.

No one has proven conclusively that Jeremiah knew about Christmas trees, either.

Priests molesting little boys…well, do we really need to go there?

All they do is prove the truth, which is that anybody, meaning anybody, who disobeys the Church is a sinner, even if he is a priest. The Law of the Church never changes; even priests can’t change it to suit themselves.

The Christmas tree is an emblem of eternal life, since the ever-green tree does not die in winter. The star at its top represents the star that guided the Wise Men to Bethlehem; the angel represents the Angel Gabriel, who announced to Mary that she would bear the Son of God. Colourful balls and other shapes represent the Fruits of the Spirit; lights represent the Light of Christ, and the gifts underneath represent the love that we are commanded to give to one another in Christ’s name.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Tab, even with your footnotes you are still not saying that the Greeks worshipped trees. At most they put the goddess like astarte into a ‘grove’ of trees, not to worship the trees themselves but to worship the goddess in her ‘setting of choice.’ They also put in other things which are specifically called idols (the ‘groves’ are not called idols) and they sacrificed swine, which was unclean to the Jewish people.

So you really think the whole fuss the Jews raised over the temple profanation was over a tree (which was put in as an incidental setting for an idol and not as an idol itself), and not over the profanation of sacrificing unclean beasts and putting in idols of goddesses etc.?

:banghead: :banghead: :banghead:

The only good thing about this whole eternity of posts is that so many people have been fortified in their humble, loving practice of having a Christmas tree, and have become even more aware of the dangers of ‘private interpretation’ of the Bible.

 

[adrift]

**
1 Maccabees 1:44 For the king had sent letters by messengers unto Jerusalem and the cities of Juda that they should follow the strange laws of the land,
1 Maccabees 1:45 And forbid burnt offerings, and sacrifice, and drink offerings, in the temple; and that they should profane the sabbaths and festival days:
1 Maccabees 1:46 And pollute the sanctuary and holy people:
1 Maccabees 1:47 Set up altars, and groves**, and chapels of idols, and sacrifice swine’s flesh, and unclean beasts

The New American Bible renders the verse this way:

45
to prohibit holocausts, sacrifices, and libations in the sanctuary, to profane the sabbaths and feast days,
46
to desecrate the sanctuary and the sacred ministers,
47
to build pagan altars and temples and shrines, to sacrifice swine and unclean animals,
48
to leave their sons uncircumcised, and to let themselves be defiled with every kind of impurity and abomination,

Tantum ergo . . . I agree with your synopsis of what Hanukkah is about. However, your synopsis fails to refute my claim that the catalyst that brought Hanukkah about was the Greeks desecration of the Temple and placing the tree in it.

The desecration was the catalyst to the rededication of the Temple. You have failed to prove that a tree had anything to do with it. Even if you did, what would be proved? It would have nothing to do with the Christmas tree.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

I must give Tab a lot of credit here (yes, really!) while shaking my head at the hopefully unconscious calumny of fatherx. Tab might have a bee in his bonnet on trees, but he doesn’t stoop to making personal attacks, and I certainly respect that, especially considering the length of this thread.

While the other poster, new to the thread, almost immediately started to jump, not on the posts, not on the arguments, but onto the ‘personal character’ of Catholics by invoking the priestly scandals of recent report. When the biggest ‘weapon’ a person uses is not a reasoned response or intelligent argument, but a “nyah-nyah you have bad priests so your entire religion is immediately gainsaid”–and yes, that was definitely the inference. . . well, that simply proves that they have no real argument and can only bluster. For shame.

 

[adrift]

I must give Tab a lot of credit here (yes, really!) .

I agree with you:yup:

 

[fatherx]

No one has proven conclusively that Jeremiah knew about Christmas trees, either.

All they do is prove the truth, which is that anybody, meaning anybody, who disobeys the Church is a sinner, even if he is a priest. The Law of the Church never changes; even priests can’t change it to suit themselves.

The Christmas tree is an emblem of eternal life, since the ever-green tree does not die in winter. The star at its top represents the star that guided the Wise Men to Bethlehem; the angel represents the Angel Gabriel, who announced to Mary that she would bear the Son of God. Colourful balls and other shapes represent the Fruits of the Spirit; lights represent the Light of Christ, and the gifts underneath represent the love that we are commanded to give to one another in Christ’s name.

Please tell me where you got your translation on the Christmas tree. (emblem of life, fruits of the Spirit, etc.) I’m guessing that you are using man’s reasoning. If I were Satan, I would try the same thing to get people comfortable with it. As for me, I will trust God’s word.
Fact is, even the world admits the winter solstice tree is a heathen tradition. Search the words “Christmas tree origin”, and you’ll find web page after web page pointing to it’s heathen roots. So should a Christian knowingly practice a heathen custom? You know the answer to that. Picture anything heathen represented by a bowl of raw sewage. In your other hand is a lovely bowl of ice cream that represents the Christ child. You want to mix the two together? Pour the sewage over the ice cream, now, who wants to take the first bite?

 

[jmcrae]

If I am reminded of eternal life by the undying tree; if I am reminded of the Star of Bethlehem by the star on the tree; if the figure of an Angel puts me in mind of Gabriel’s announcement to Mary, and if the balls and other decorations put me in mind of the 12 Fruits of the Holy Spirit, then just what, exactly, does the Devil gain by that?

No, rather, it is folks like yourself who prattle on about heathen worship who do the Devil’s work, since no one today would even know about such things, let alone be tempted to practice such things, were it not for people like you “enlightening” us - it causes me to wonder just how many of today’s “neo-pagans” learned their demonic crafts in Protestant Sunday School.

 

[fatherx]

I must give Tab a lot of credit here (yes, really!) while shaking my head at the hopefully unconscious calumny of fatherx. Tab might have a bee in his bonnet on trees, but he doesn’t stoop to making personal attacks, and I certainly respect that, especially considering the length of this thread.

While the other poster, new to the thread, almost immediately started to jump, not on the posts, not on the arguments, but onto the ‘personal character’ of Catholics by invoking the priestly scandals of recent report. When the biggest ‘weapon’ a person uses is not a reasoned response or intelligent argument, but a “nyah-nyah you have bad priests so your entire religion is immediately gainsaid”–and yes, that was definitely the inference. . . well, that simply proves that they have no real argument and can only bluster. For shame.

Please point out the errors that I stated, if I have made an error on any facts, I will certainly apologize.
Thank you for pointing out that I am new here. I’d like to share with you how a new set of eyes on this thread was deeply troubled to see a mob attack on “tab”. (Ido not know tabcon, but have read a few of his/her posts) I expected a forum of Christians, loving, tenderhearted, etc… That’s not what I saw. I saw one or two attempting to use scripture to validate their stance (and tab is doing a nice job), and 90% of the rest are acting mean spirited, using theory, folklore, authors & scholars (man’s reasoning) instead of the Truth (God’s word).
The problems with the church (Catholic or otherwise) are too numerous to list, as I said before, even Christ got upset with the leaders of the church. If you are leaning on the leaders of the church for direction, and not God’s word, you are asking for trouble.(IMO)

 

[LilyM]

No one has proven conclusively that Jeremiah knew about Christmas trees, either.

Fatherx, I know a little (but probably more than you or any of your sources, who can’t even tell the difference between the GODDESS Asherah and so-called sacred trees) about pagan religions.

Most every self-respecting pagan knew that sacred trees in fact LOST their supernatural powers when they were cut down.

Read up on Julius Caesar’s campaigns in Gaul - he waged psychological warfare on the tree-worshipping Celts of the region by CUTTING DOWN huge swathes of their forests. Clearly they NO LONGER belived the trees were divine AFTER they were cut down, and lost confidence in the powers of their own gods of nature (and the gods of those trees) to protect them because of it. In fact the Celts are recorded as having mourned the loss of those trees as if they were PEOPLE who had been killed!

If they did belive in the divinity of chopped-down decorated trees then why aren’t there records of the Celts dragging them back to their homes and decorating them for worship rather than mourning over them as if they were dead people???

All of this ties in with what a previous poster said about sacred GROVES - of LIVING trees, not trees that had been chopped down and decorated. After all, chopped down trees became houses, furniture, weapons such as spears, and tools. If they were still considered sacred they wouldn’t have been put to such mundane (not to say sacreligious) purposes. It would be like you taking a chalice home from church and using it at your dinner table - just wouldn’t be done.

You’ve often accused us of looking for ‘loopholes’. Seriously, by your own interpretation of Jeremiah you’re saying intent of the ‘worshipper’, or even the fact that they may not intend to worship anything at all, doesn’t matter so long as they perform the acts of cutting down and decorating a tree.

By your interpretation, then, the Jeremiah passage probably prohibits wooden Nativity scenes, crucifixes, carved wooden Stations of the Cross and plenty of other Christian religious items. These too involve the cutting down and decorating of trees.

 

[adrift]

Jeremiah 10
1Hear ye the word which the LORD speaketh unto you, O house of Israel:
2Thus saith the LORD, Learn not the way of the heathen, and be not dismayed at the signs of heaven; for the heathen are dismayed at them.
3For the customs of the people are vain: for one cutteth a tree out of the forest, the work of the hands of the workman, with the axe.
4They deck it with silver and with gold; they fasten it with nails and with hammers, that it move not.
5They are upright as the palm tree, but speak not: they must needs be borne, because they cannot go. Be not afraid of them; for they cannot do evil, neither also is it in them to do good.

I wanted to share some findings that I have made concerning Jeremiah chapter 10, the first five verses. One critical thing to remember when studying scripture is, that you must pay attention to paragraph marks! A good study bible will have paragraph marks (looks like the mathematical symbol for pi), this is very important, it will prevent you from injecting scripture from other topics into your specific verses of study. When we look at the first five verses of Jeremiah chapter 10, note that the paragraph ends after verse five. I’ve seen where folks will take a verse from later in the text, and try to use it in the interpretation of these five verses, very dangerous.

• In verse one, we are told to listen, because the Lord is speaking to us. (pay attention! The Lord is telling us something important!)
• In verse two, the Lord gives us a commandment, “learn not…”, don’t practice this heathen custom. In this same sentence is a key clue! The heathen are doing this because of a certain sign in the heavens, winter solstice. The winter solstice festival started on the solstice and ended on New Year’s day, what we now call the twelve days of Christmas.
• In verse three, we begin the description, a custom where a tree is cut from the forest.
• In verse four, they fasten the tree upright so that it will not fall over, and it’s lavishly decorated. (When you watch the TV special “Rudolph the red-nosed reindeer”, look for the part where they decorate the tree, Burl Ives sings “Silver & gold”!)
• In verse five, we are told that it is upright and can not speak and can not walk, its needs must be met (you better water it!) And we are told not to be afraid of it, it is a false god and has no power.

Why these verses are not describing a wooden carving, as some have suggested.

1. No wooden carving that I’m aware of is linked with the signs in the heavens (winter solstice).
2. The original Hebrew text uses the word “ets” (found in a Hebrew-Chaldee dictionary as #6086), which means “a tree from it’s firmness”. Clearly this is not a post or plank, but a tree from the forest. (roots give a tree it’s firmness, so we know it’s a tree). Some translations use the words “chisel” and “forming”, this is describing tree trimming, once a very popular part of the tree tradition.
3. Wooden carvings aren’t typically fastened upright, they usually sit on their own.

You have left things out.

1. Worked with a blade by a carver’s hand

Carving is an art form. Christmas trees are not carved they are cut.
5. Like scarecrows in a melon patch, they cannot talk,…
This shows that the carving are made to look like some type of life form.

Originally Posted by fatherx View Post
The Lord’s instruction is to not practice the heathen tradition of decorating the tree from the forest at the time of winter solstice. (pretty clear) I don’t object to the winter solstice tree itself, I just choose to obey God.

The versus you quote do not support this.

 

[fatherx]

If I am reminded of eternal life by the undying tree; if I am reminded of the Star of Bethlehem by the star on the tree; if the figure of an Angel puts me in mind of Gabriel’s announcement to Mary, and if the balls and other decorations put me in mind of the 12 Fruits of the Holy Spirit, then just what, exactly, does the Devil gain by that?

No, rather, it is folks like yourself who prattle on about heathen worship who do the Devil’s work, since no one today would even know about such things, let alone be tempted to practice such things, were it not for people like you “enlightening” us - it causes me to wonder just how many of today’s “neo-pagans” learned their demonic crafts in Protestant Sunday School.

We are attacking Protestants now? Wow, this forum is something.
You can sprinkle sugar on the tree if you like, but the fact that it is a heathen tradition does not change. Would Christ knowingly practice a heathen tradition? Of course not. Picture anything heathen represented by a bowl of raw sewage, on your other hand is a bowl of wonderful ice cream representing the Christ child. You want to mix the two together? Pour the sewage over the ice cream, now, who wants the first bite?

 

[jmcrae]

We are attacking Protestants now?

Not at all; I was merely criticizing the practice of giving instruction in the demonic arts as a means of “Bible teaching.”

The Christmas tree has Christian symbolism - no one thinks it is a god; no one worships it, and no one does any of the pagan rituals with it that you are so worried about. It is not a heathen custom; it is a Christian custom. Ask any Jew or Buddhist about that; they will freely admit to you that Christmas trees are Christian.

The fact that pagans of old worshipped trees is merely a coincidence and has nothing whatsoever to do with us. Jeremiah knew nothing about Christmas trees, and was not speaking about them in the passage cited, so you can keep your sewage to yourself; we’ve got pure ice cream, with fancy candy sprinkles on top. :dancing:

 

[fatherx]

You have left things out.

1. Worked with a blade by a carver’s hand

Carving is an art form. Christmas trees are not carved they are cut.
5. Like scarecrows in a melon patch, they cannot talk,…
This shows that the carving takes some type of life form.

The versus you quote do not support this.

1. Correction, the blade refers to the old tradition of tree trimming, do a search and you will find out that at one time, this was a huge part of the Christmas tree tradition. (I don’t think Jeremiah had the words “pruning shears” available) An older version of the Christmas tree was in fact a palm tree, I believe that carving on the trunk was part of the decorating.
2. I can look out my window and see the neighbors tree in their front yard, nicely decorated. Yes, it stands like a scarecrow in a melon patch. It can not walk. An excellant description.

Keep in mind, that even if Jeremiah 10:1-5 is not describing the Christmas tree, the tree tradition is a heathen / pagan tradition. (do a search “Christmas tree origin”) Should Christians practice heathen traditions? Would Christ?

 

[LilyM]

We are attacking Protestants now? Wow, this forum is something.
You can sprinkle sugar on the tree if you like, but the fact that it is a heathen tradition does not change. Would Christ knowingly practice a heathen tradition? Of course not. Picture anything heathen represented by a bowl of raw sewage, on your other hand is a bowl of wonderful ice cream representing the Christ child. You want to mix the two together? Pour the sewage over the ice cream, now, who wants the first bite?

A heathen tradition doesn’t change? Then we’d better get rid of all images of ‘anything in heaven, on earth or under the earth’ (which includes your own photographs as well as the images placed in Churches for worship) and above all we’d better get rid of the idea of Christ having been a sacrifice for our sins, since human sacrifice was a DEFINITELY heathen and non-Jewish custom :bigyikes:

You’re left with precious little of anything if you pursue that line of argument my friend. Remember Peter’s dream at Cornelius’ house? Remember the apostles arguing so strenuously that Gentile converts need not be circumcised? God can and does change his mind about which customs are okay and which aren’t.

 

[fatherx]

Fatherx, I know a little (but probably more than you or any of your sources, who can’t even tell the difference between the GODDESS Asherah and so-called sacred trees) about pagan religions.

Most every self-respecting pagan knew that sacred trees in fact LOST their supernatural powers when they were cut down.

Read up on Julius Caesar’s campaigns in Gaul - he waged psychological warfare on the tree-worshipping Celts of the region by CUTTING DOWN huge swathes of their forests. Clearly they NO LONGER belived the trees were divine AFTER they were cut down, and lost confidence in the powers of their own gods of nature (and the gods of those trees) to protect them because of it. In fact the Celts are recorded as having mourned the loss of those trees as if they were PEOPLE who had been killed!

If they did belive in the divinity of chopped-down decorated trees then why aren’t there records of the Celts dragging them back to their homes and decorating them for worship rather than mourning over them as if they were dead people???

All of this ties in with what a previous poster said about sacred GROVES - of LIVING trees, not trees that had been chopped down and decorated. After all, chopped down trees became houses, furniture, weapons such as spears, and tools. If they were still considered sacred they wouldn’t have been put to such mundane (not to say sacreligious) purposes. It would be like you taking a chalice home from church and using it at your dinner table - just wouldn’t be done.

You’ve often accused us of looking for ‘loopholes’. Seriously, by your own interpretation of Jeremiah you’re saying intent of the ‘worshipper’, or even the fact that they may not intend to worship anything at all, doesn’t matter so long as they perform the acts of cutting down and decorating a tree.

By your interpretation, then, the Jeremiah passage probably prohibits wooden Nativity scenes, crucifixes, carved wooden Stations of the Cross and plenty of other Christian religious items. These too involve the cutting down and decorating of trees.

Once again, I say I will lean on what God’s word is, not some goddess or Caesar or man’s reasoning.
*The scripture says *“do not learn the ways of the heathen”, it’s not that hard to understand. I will obey God.
My family places gifts under a Nativity scene.

 

[fatherx]

A heathen tradition doesn’t change? Then we’d better get rid of all images of ‘anything in heaven, on earth or under the earth’ (which includes your own photographs as well as the images placed in Churches for worship) and above all we’d better get rid of the idea of Christ having been a sacrifice for our sins, since human sacrifice was a DEFINITELY heathen and non-Jewish custom :bigyikes:

You’re left with precious little of anything if you pursue that line of argument my friend. Remember Peter’s dream at Cornelius’ house? Remember the apostles arguing so strenuously that Gentile converts need not be circumcised? God can and does change his mind about which customs are okay and which aren’t.

Yes, the fact that the tree tradition is a heathen custom, can not be changed. Best wishes on changing all the history books!

 

[adrift]

\ Would Christ knowingly practice a heathen tradition? Of course not.

This is only an opinion. Jesus did many things that others thought were not good like eating with sinners and picking fruit on the sabbath. Would Jesus? My opinion is yes.

 

[LilyM]

Yes, the fact that the tree tradition is a heathen custom, can not be changed. Best wishes on changing all the history books!

Reread the post fatherx - I reedited it completely. Argue against the idea of Christ as human sacrifice if you dare - that was DEFINITELY not a Jewish tradition but WAS a heathen one.