T
tabcom
Guest
Please help me understand something, did you or did you not preform the simple test that I requested of you?
If you would be so kind as to do so, and then post your results, I would like to continue.
- Status
If you would be so kind as to do so, and then post your results, I would like to continue.
C
Church_Militant
Guest
No… I did not. It doesn’t matter because it does not prove your point.
Moreover, it is off-topic to this thread. Completely irrelevent.
Please respond to the rest of my post which is the 5th one up from this one. Show me with facts that my refutation of your premise is in error and that you actually have an understanding of what my username means (since you brought it up) and go from there. I begin to think you are dodging here. Are you?
Pax tecum,
M
mercygate
Guest
You seem to think that material idolatry of objects is a serious stumbling block. I presume your point of reference is the modern industrialized world and not a primitive, pagan sub-Sarahan tribe. In our culture, the possibility of idolizing an object, of attributing to it sacred powers – except for those who have fallen prey to certain New Age cults – is so remote from our way of thinking as to be impossible.
We in the industrialized West are vulnerable to subtler idolatries, which you have bundled up into your Christmas tree. Great. Harmless enough, and it has great meaning to you. But that does not make your personal interpretation of this symbol universal, true, or even reasonable for anybody else.
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**
Huh? Tab, my brother, the connection between I Cor 2:14 and children and Christmas gifts is non-existent. Receiving “gifts” is a very important part of our relationship with Jesus Christ. Children learn to receive – and to give – spiritual gifts partly by receiving concrete gifts and by learning appropriate gratitude.
I don’t know who you are talking about, or whether you are making a metaphoric reference here. But we Catholics have the Deuterocanonical book, The Wisdom of Jesus, Son of Sirach in our scriptures. Also the name “Jesus” is the Greek form of “Joshua.” Maybe this needs its own thread but since you bring it up here, would you please let us in on the arcane mystery?
Perhaps you could help us to understand your urgency by sharing with us a concrete example of this from your experience with baby believers so that we can see what you are talking about. We seem not to be able to tune into your frequency.
T
tabcom
Guest
**
Mercygate: Thank you for your reply back with some thoughtful responses. I wish to address them individually.
There has been several posts implying that my questioning the meaning of the christmas tree as being my personal interpretation. I would like to take a moment to clarify this point. The Jehovah’s Witnesses, Amish, and many non-denom christian churchs do not celebrate christmas, let alone the christmas tree. Therefore, I cannot take credit with the premise that the christmas tree is evil.
OK…before church militant et. al. waste space on this thread stating their defiance against what anyone outside of their belief system thinks, I get that!
The intent of this post is two fold. One, to help christians that may be struggling with the materialistic dirt that gets piled on the symbolic representation of the christmas tree. Two, to hold a civil discussion as to why other christians outside the Catholic Church believe the christmas tree is evil.
I will address your other questions in due time.**
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mercygate
Guest
Tab – I am unable to follow this post because you seem to be responding to something I wrote without indicating what you are responding to. Can you use the “quote” feature. Just select what you are responding to and click on the icon that looks like a cartoon text bubble at the top of the frame/ It will automatically quote that statement in your message so we can keep track of the dialog.
OK?
C
corvidae
Guest
Tabcom,
I would like you to reply to my post 152. It seems that even if the Christmas tree is idolatry, it is different than the idolatry you find in the old testament. If you would admit that, we could move on to the idols of materialism that I am sure many here would agree with.
Make no mistake, Catholics enjoy giving and recieving gifts on Christmas, it is part of our traditions, but what many of us despise is when Christmas becomes JUST about giving and recieving gifts.
A lone Raven
I would like you to reply to my post 152. It seems that even if the Christmas tree is idolatry, it is different than the idolatry you find in the old testament. If you would admit that, we could move on to the idols of materialism that I am sure many here would agree with.
Make no mistake, Catholics enjoy giving and recieving gifts on Christmas, it is part of our traditions, but what many of us despise is when Christmas becomes JUST about giving and recieving gifts.
A lone Raven
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tabcom
Guest
mercygate: regarding Post #160, 2nd paraghraph . . .
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deb1
Guest
Tabcom, I would suggest that you look into Advent. As a new Catholic I am just beginning to determine how my family will practice this holiday.
Candles are lit daily, while one family member reads the gospel aloud. It has a lot of symbolism and because it would be a new tradition for your family, you would be able to create your own customs. My family is researching other cultures Advent traditions to decide what we will add. We are trying to keep everything focused on Jesus during our celebrations.
As far as gifts, as this is a problem for you, perhaps you could decide to do some extra special good works for your neighbors or visit a homeless shelter.
Would a Jesse tree be an option for you?
I do think that you are wrong in making the blanket statement that Christmas trees in themselves are evil. It is obvious that for you they are a major stumbling block. We understand. But not everyone views Christmas trees as you do. There are some whose religious life’s are enhanced by a Christmas tree.
Candles are lit daily, while one family member reads the gospel aloud. It has a lot of symbolism and because it would be a new tradition for your family, you would be able to create your own customs. My family is researching other cultures Advent traditions to decide what we will add. We are trying to keep everything focused on Jesus during our celebrations.
As far as gifts, as this is a problem for you, perhaps you could decide to do some extra special good works for your neighbors or visit a homeless shelter.
Would a Jesse tree be an option for you?
I do think that you are wrong in making the blanket statement that Christmas trees in themselves are evil. It is obvious that for you they are a major stumbling block. We understand. But not everyone views Christmas trees as you do. There are some whose religious life’s are enhanced by a Christmas tree.
M
mercygate
Guest
Yay! You figured out the quotes! Now we can have a real dialogue and actually keep track of what we’re talking about.
I presume that you answered my statement that your view is personal and not necessarily or even reasonably something that must be universally held.
You mention JWs. OK. I ask you to scratch them off the list because they are emphatically not Christian. They believe Jesus is Michael the Archangel, for Pete’s sake! Amish? I have Amish friends. They think photographs are graven images and they believe that electricity is a dangerous tie to the world. Their take on Christmas trees is subsumed under a broader heading. They set the bar a lot lower than most. I don’t know whether they use Jeremiah as justification of that but they DO celebrate Christmas. Non-denoms? There is no uniform opoinion among these mostly-neoCalvinists. I know plenty of 'em who have Christmas trees.
Everything we have said on this thread applies to any argument they would make. The interpretation that Christmas trees are idols may not originate with you personally (I easily believe that) but it can be and has been answered.
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tabcom
Guest
**
I Corinthians 2:14 – the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
natural, from the Greek word psuchikos – physical, sensual
receiveth is the Greek word dechomai. The word dech is the word ten, from which we get the word decade (ten years) and the word decalogue (ten words/ ten commandments). This word receiveth means to figuratively reach out willingly with the ten fingers and “accept” an offer that has been made.**
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mercygate
Guest
You do not believe that man is both body and soul, do you? Do you believe that Jesus rose from the dead: bodily?
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tabcom
Guest
**mercygate . . .
with respects to “. . . the connection between I Cor 2:14 and children and Christmas gifts is non-existent.”
Has my explaination of this verse adequately suggest the possiblility that there maybe a connection?**
with respects to “. . . the connection between I Cor 2:14 and children and Christmas gifts is non-existent.”
Has my explaination of this verse adequately suggest the possiblility that there maybe a connection?**
A
AnneBOK
Guest
Unless it is worshipped - no it is not evil. Our family has had a variety of so-called trees over the years: one year it was sage brush from the desert, one year it was foam carved in the shape of a tree, one year it was a bare branch - ALL of which were decorated to bring some color and cheer into our home.
Anne
Anne
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deb1
Guest
I have to admit, I am a bit confused as to how you are using this verse in conjuction with the Christmas tree could you explain a little more fully.
Are you saying-and I am probably misunderstanding you-that no one should receive gifts due to this verse?
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mercygate
Guest
No. Because you seem to be arguing that giving and receiving gifts denies the spiritual man.
Christians believe that what we do with our material body, how we treat the material world, and how we relate to the created universe, are part of the human life through which we come to God.
Christians believe that God became matter, not so that we should deny the “natural man”, but so that the natural man might be sanctified to Him.
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Gottle_of_Geer
Guest
Yes He does - by sending His Son to be immersed in the vomit of our sins by living among sinful men as a man Who “was without sin”. He avoided sin by being Holiness personified, not by playing safe & avoiding lepers like us.
If God had wished to avoid getting His hands dirty, He would not have mixed with people like Samaritans, Gentiles, Roman soldiers, tax-collectors, whores, demoniacs, and crucified criminals. These were not nice respectable people, they were the religious trash of their day, from the POV of those Jews who were so concerned with ritual purity & the laws of uncleanness that they forgot the more important things, like justice, & mercy, & kindness. Jesus does not attack Gentiles or Samaritans or tax-collectors - He piles into the Pharisees & scribes; He savages them ferociously.Tax-collectors were collaborators; they bled their countrymen dry in the service of a hated (& cruel) occupying power, & enriched themselves in the process. Yet one of these contemptible creatures was called by Jesus to be one of His Apostles. As for Samaritans, they & the Jews hated one another’s guts.
Yet it was these unclean & pagan people to whom He revealed Himself. Samaritans & Gentiles & Romans & other such people believed - the religious leaders of His people did not.
If God had not wanted us to become involved with those who do not believe in Him, He would not have plunged Himself into the utmost depth of our vileness & died an obscene & accursed & unclean death for us; He would have stayed safely in Heaven, amid the holy angel-hosts, & not have been called a liar, false prophet, deceiver, demoniac, Beelezebub, madman, & blasphemer by members of His own people. IOW, Jesus is very like the figure in Daniel 11 who has served as the basis for the figure of Antichrist. So it’s not surprising that His enemies thought he was a very wicked man.
God gets His hands dirty in order to rescue us from our degradation - He wasn’t playing a game; He really did become a man just like us, differing only in being wholly sin-free. That is the only difference between us & Him. And He works in the same way now - so the only way for us not be soiled by unbelievers, is to avoid evangelising them, & to keep together in a holy huddle. But that is not what He comands - He says “Go out into all the world…”; not: “Don’t mix with those unclean heathens, but stay in the Upper Room & don’t leave”.
This is all because God is God-with-us - not God-Who-would-not-dream-of-getting-His-hands-dirty-by-mixing-with-sinful-men. God is not a spectator of the human condition, looking on in safety from the sidelines - He is a God Who “gets stuck in”; that is all part of being a “jealous” God, for what the word we translate as “jealous” means is, that He is a God Who is passionately committed to & involved with the People He has chosen.
Besides, a God Who is too fussy to get involved with the filthy messes we & others make of our lives is not a God of grace - scum like us don’t deserve help: but He, is gracious & merciful, & is far readier to assist us than we are to call upon Him. And if He is not a God of grace, then the Gospel is no more. Worst of all, the Cross ceases to be the supreme revelation of God’s Love & Wrath; for God does not become a curse for us; He does not become sin, that we might become the Righteousness of God. God becomes like any other “god” - none of them died for sinners either. Christ our God did. But no Cross = no Love of God for sinners. So “we are still in our sins”.
No mixing with the heathen = no evangelism, no book of Acts, no missionaries, no conversions to Christ, no effect of the Church upon the societies it lives in; so, the work of Christ would be made ineffectual, for He came to save sinners - the very people we are not to mix with. He “is the end of the Law” - its goal, purpose, reason, conclusion. So we are not bound by its laws ##
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Gottle_of_Geer
Guest
Might I suggest you read my post on this passage ? The prophet’s words have no more to do with Christmas trees than the White House has anything to do with the temples of that name**. **##
Which means that he made, or had made for him, an image of that goddess. Christmas trees are decorations, not “gods” & “goddesses”. We are not under the impression that a god is present in them - that is because we Catholics known of one God alone, the Creator of heaven & earth, the sea, the unseen world, & of all that is in them (as in Nehemiah 9). We’re Christians - therefore, we know only One God, Who is a Blessed Trinity of Persons, co-equal, co-eternal, & infinite in every perfection. We know that there is an immeaurable difference between God, & what He has created. So tree-adorers we ain’t
**Leviticus 18:21, 24, 30 – Thou shalt not let any of thy seed pass through the fire to Moloch ( sun - god ) – Defile not yourselves in “any of these things” – Therefore shall ye keep mine ordinance, that ye commit not “anyone of these abominable customs” – and that ye defile not yourselves therein. [/q[/COLOR]uote] ##
- Moloch was never a sun-god (FWIW)
- The CC has its faults, but it’s not over-fond of child-sacrifice or human sacrifice. It has never practiced either.
- How is child-sacrifice relevant to tree-worship ?
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- How is child-sacrifice relevant to tree-worship ?
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Gottle_of_Geer
Guest
## If something is not a cause of sin to others, then Christians are free to do whatever-it-may-be.
So if having a Christmas tree doesn’t make people stumble in their Christian walk, for them to have one is entirely proper.
From the references to idolatry you included, ISTM that you are saying Christmas trees as such are a Bad Thing - so I for one am not quite sure which argument you are making - that they are bad in themselves, or, that they can be (& by implication, need not be) a cause of stumbling to others.
It goes without saying that superstition of every kind is absolutely wrong - defending the permissibility of Christmas trees among Christians, is not a way of defending superstition. Catholics do not regard Christmas trees as superstitious, but as creatures of God, & therefore, as good in themselves. It is human sinfulness that makes created things evil; but trees are of themselves not evil at all: human frailty may make them a source of evil by abusing them in some way, but they are in themselves harmless. ##
## There are more than two Jesuses in the Bible
There is
- Joshua son of Nun, after whom the sixth book of the Bible is named (see also Hebrews 4.8)
- Jeshua son of Jehozadak (Zechariah 3)
- Jesus Justus, a disciple mentioned in Acts (IIRC)
- Not mention the other well-known one
- And IIRC a few others in the OT
Jesus is the Greek form of these Hebrew names
##
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Rolltide
Guest
I’ve found it! The evil Christmas tree!!! 
youtube.com/watch?v=0pbk1fF57dY
(Clip features from “The Christmas Invasion” episode of the British Sci-fi series Dr. Who) hehehe…
youtube.com/watch?v=0pbk1fF57dY
(Clip features from “The Christmas Invasion” episode of the British Sci-fi series Dr. Who) hehehe…
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Zooey
Guest
So, is it
OK that I vote for Republicans? Because they have that
Ganesha publically displayed…Or is the
Worship of Donkeys equally a problem???Is it possible that you don’t see how ridiulous this is getting? Jesus came to free us from the law of sin & death, not to add to our bondage!!
- Status