Is the christmas tree evil?

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corvidae said:
It is a Catholic Idea that Creation was good, and was corrupted with the fall of man just as man was corrupted.
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**So are you saying, all of what God created was good, but now is corrupt?

Or are you saying, all of what God created was good, then it was made corrupt, but it is good again?

This is not a trick question. I’m just trying to get a better understanding as to what you believe.**
 
tabcom said:
In the original greek text, the word for world that John used in 1 John 2:15-17, is the word cosmos. It means orderly arrangement. He goes on to quantify this particular world. The world, the cosmos, the orderly arrangement is what one sees, what one consumes, and what makes one feel prideful. All of which is not spiritual in nature.
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Tab, I read NT Greek, BTW. I seem to remember something about being “in” the world but not “of” it.

Paul notes in Romans 1 that this kosmos proclaims the truth of the Creator to such an extent that even the barbarians have no excuse for failing to give God due worship because his “eternal power and deity, has been clearly perceived in the things that have been made.”

In John 12, the the Evangelist records Jesus as saying that he came not to judge but to save the world. Is that not what is meant by being in the world and not of it? And is not that what is meant by all things being clean?
 
I am saying everything was created good.
I am saying that now it may be good or may be bad.
I am saying that now material things can be used for good or evil, but they are not evil just because they are material.
In other words, the material world is basically good, but can be used for evil. We are to be in the world but not of the world. We are not simply material beings, we are material and spiritual. We should not try to deny that.

We are material and spiritual, that is how we were made. That is why Catholics believe that God uses material signs to show spiritual things, such as the sacraments.

A lone Raven
 
**Now that this thread has reached over 200 post and 1450 unique views, and gone in several directions, I’d thought I’d get back on topic. That is, is the christmas tree evil? Is not the tree worship in Jer. 10 and 1 Kings 16 symbolic of the tree that is erected in churches and homes today?

Jeremiah 10:2-5 - Learn not the way of the heathen – for the customs of the people are vain: for one cutteth a tree out of the forest, the work of the hands of the workman, with the axe. – They deck it with silver and with gold; they fasten it with nails and with hammers that it move not.-- They are upright as the palm tree –
Code: 
* upright - Hebrew: Miqsah - rounded work; curls and stresses moulded by hammering
I Kings 16:33 – And Ahab made a grove; and Ahab did more to provoke the Lord God of Israel to anger than all the kings of Israel that were before him.
* grove - Hebrew: asherah - Astarte; Phoenician (Sidonian) goddess; upright or straight; a tree**
 
tabcom said:
Now that this thread has reached over 200 post and 1450 unique views, and gone in several directions, I’d thought I’d get back on topic. That is, is the christmas tree evil? Is not the tree worship in Jer. 10 and 1 Kings 16 symbolic of the tree that is erected in churches and homes today?

Jeremiah 10:2-5 - Learn not the way of the heathen – for the customs of the people are vain: for one cutteth a tree out of the forest, the work of the hands of the workman, with the axe. – They deck it with silver and with gold; they fasten it with nails and with hammers that it move not.-- They are upright as the palm tree –

*** upright - Hebrew: Miqsah - rounded work; curls and stresses moulded by hammering**

I Kings 16:33 – And Ahab made a grove; and Ahab did more to provoke the Lord God of Israel to anger than all the kings of Israel that were before him.

*** grove - Hebrew: asherah - Astarte; Phoenician (Sidonian) goddess; upright or straight; a tree**
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The thread did not go off topic. It developed into a discussion of the real issue, which is not Christmas trees or material idolatry, but a world view which denies the Word of God that “God saw all that he had done and pronounced it good.”
 
I especially in post 153 have answered that. EMPHATICALLY NO. There is little to no connection between the tree worship of Jeremah and Kings and the Christmas tree.
They are different things, they mean different things.

A lone Raven
 
Things in and of themselves cannot be evil–it is the intentions of men that are evil. If you give a tree the adoration due to God alone, then you are committing evil. I don’t know anyone who does this. Everyone I know, including myself, decorate their house with an evergreen tree to celebrate the eternal life won for us by the Divine Saviour whose birth we are celebrating.

There is nothing wrong with using Creation to give glory to the one true God–that in fact is the purpose of Creation. 🙂
 
mercygate said:
It (the topic has) developed into a discussion of the real issue,. . . a world view which denies the Word of God that “God saw all that he had done and pronounced it good.”
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**Of which there is little to disagree about.

The vast majority of the world is not Christian. And cares not what the God of the Bible did or did not do.**
 
corvidae said:
I especially in post 153 have answered that. EMPHATICALLY NO. There is little to no connection between the tree worship of Jeremah and Kings and the Christmas tree.
They are different things, they mean different things.
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I’ve also stated in great detail in Post #179 why I disagree with you regarding this point.
 
No,
you said that you will not admit that it is different, and then equated idolatry with covetousness. Which, I have no idea who covets a Christmas tree.

I am saying that the idolatry of a Christmas tree (if it does in fact exist) is very different from the idolatry mentioned in Jeremiah and Kings.

Different things are being worshipped, and for vastly different reasons, can we at least agree on that.

A lone Raven
 
tabcom said:
**…**Gen. 11:4 – "They said, Let us make us a name"

*** name - Hebrew: Shem- honour; authority conspicuous position**

**In Gen. 11:4 Babylon rebelled against God; mothering all idol worship, founding their idolatrous system, when they said, “Let us make us a name.” (honor self). **
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FWIW, Babylon was not the mother of all idol worship - historically, it was a late-comer on the stage of Mesopotamian history.

And Gen. 11.1-9 is not attacking idolatry - if it is attacking anything. “Let us make a shem for ourselves…” expresses a concern for human solidarity - which may be why it follows the “Table of the Nations” in Genesis 10, and is itself followed by a list of the ancestors of Abram. The unity of human society is the theme that unites these passages - false worship, in its various forms, does not get a look until much later on.
Genesis is deeply concerned with society & the family - which may be why cities are so prominent in it. ##

**
Pride is the foundation of all idolatry. A man is an idol worshippers (of self), when he says, “I will make a name for myself. I am known as an authority (name) by my idols (cars, houses, lands, things.) My position in the community will cause men to look up to me”. This is an abomination. Pride is a stinking smell to God. Christians are to be living, acceptable, (pleasing) sacrifices. (Rom 12:1). Wicked-Spiritual Babylon, mother of idolatry, is the system of “pride” has always been here. It is what will pollute the world at the end of time.
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## We know pride is a terrible evil - that’s why it is the head & root of all sin; & why it is the the most ruinous of the seven capital sins. ##**
**In addition . . . **

Luke 12:15 And he (Jesus) said unto them, Take heed, and beware of covetousness: for a man’s life consisteth not in the abundance of the things which he possesseth.

Eph 5:5 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.

Col 3:5 Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry:

Covetousness = Idolatry

covetousness- greek: pleonektes- to want more; greediness

Idolatry = wanting more

**Every man is covetous by nature until God deals with him and causes him to repent (turn from self to God). The word devil (daimon) means to distribute fortunes. A covetous man who “wants more” has a devil. Covetousness is the idolatrous worship of self. It is an idolatry as evil as falling down before Baal, the christmas tree, the golden calf, or anyone of the ancient pagan deities of Babylon. **

Paul said, “having food and raiment, let us be there with content” (I Tim. 6:8). He also said, “I have learned, in whatsoever state I am, therewith to be content.” (Phil. 4:11).

**Men, myself included, are involved in idolatry when they refuse to be content with what they have. Their hearts cry out, “I want more.” **
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Again, we know that these things are evil - avarice & gluttony are also capital sins; so too are lust, sloth, envy, & wrath.​

Obviously, all idolatry is wrong - no argument there.

I still don’t see how passages which speak against these sins support the idea that Jeremiah 10 was directed against Christmas trees. I can see how the sin of covetousness might be occasioned by the giving of presents - but there is no reason why it need be. A wage packet could have the same effect.

“It is what comes out of a man that defiles him”, not what goes in. People are not made to sin by Christmas trees, but by the sinful appetites they have within them; those appetites, urges, &desires are the problem; not the trees, nor the presents received, nor anything from outside a man. ##

Am I missing something ? ##
 
tabcom said:
Ask the witch’s on the internet what they think about christmas.
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[Note & disclaimer: I am a Monty Python fan of Irish/Welsh descent. The Silly Six have No Idea What They Missed In Me].

I have asked the witches on the internet what they think of:

Hair…1,050,000x
Clothes…1,660,000x
Meat…446,000x
Milk…316,000x
Honey…298,000x
:eek: :eek: 4,398,000x total…

It seems obvious to me, if we are to avoid wiccans & other pagans, that we must all,forthwith, Shave Our Heads, and Become :bigyikes:Naked 😦 Vegans.
Until such time as a Proper Meeting Place can be obtained, may I offer the use of my;) Lovely Garden Shed? Though it has but two walls left standing, it has:nope: no connection with paganism at all…A rather close relationship with 😛 Migrating Bats, but :nope: no pagans…
Seriously: Religion by Google seems to me to be a poor way to prove anything.
 
Gottle_of_Geer said:
FWIW, Babylon was not the mother of all idol worship - historically, it was a late-comer on the stage of Mesopotamian history.
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**It is not the historical record that I was refering to. It was the Biblical record.

Re 17:5 -
and on her forehead a name {was} written, a mystery, “BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND OF THE ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.”

Strong’s Greek Dictionaary
harlot = porne 4204. feminine of pornoV - pornos 4205; a strumpet; figuratively, an idolater:–harlot, whore.**
 
Zooey said:
Seriously: Religion by Google seems to me to be a poor way to prove anything.
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**
I’ve sited one google source and nearly a dozen biblical sources at this point.

Once again, the christmas tree is NOT a literal idol. To most of the world, it metaphorically represents wanting more.

Wanting more = Covetousness
Covetousness = Idolatry
Wanting more = Idolatry

Col 3:5 Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry**
corvidae said:
I have no idea who covets a Christmas tree.
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One more time, the christmas tree is NOT a literal idol. To most of the world, it metaphorically represents wanting more.
corvidae said:
I am saying that the idolatry of a Christmas tree (if it does in fact exist) is very different from the idolatry mentioned in Jeremiah and Kings.

Different things are being worshipped, and for vastly different reasons
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Zooey said:
[Note & disclaimer: I am a Monty Python fan of Irish/Welsh descent. The Silly Six have No Idea What They Missed In Me].

I have asked the witches on the internet what they think of:

Hair…1,050,000x
Clothes…1,660,000x
Meat…446,000x
Milk…316,000x
Honey…298,000x
:eek: :eek: 4,398,000x total…

It seems obvious to me, if we are to avoid wiccans & other pagans, that we must all,forthwith, Shave Our Heads, and Become :bigyikes:Naked 😦 Vegans.
Until such time as a Proper Meeting Place can be obtained, may I offer the use of my;) Lovely Garden Shed? Though it has but two walls left standing, it has:nope: no connection with paganism at all…A rather close relationship with 😛 Migrating Bats, but :nope: no pagans…
Seriously: Religion by Google seems to me to be a poor way to prove anything.
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Sorry Zooey, I can’t see myself shaving, going without clothing or turning vegan for anyone or anything. There’s just so much punishment my senses and everyone’s around me can take.
 
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tabcom:
One more time, the christmas tree is NOT a literal idol. To most of the world, it metaphorically represents wanting more.
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I’ve never evereverever heard anyone say anything like that.:confused:
The opposite, in fact, if anything. Christmas presents under the tree represent GIVING…😉
Perhaps the christmas tree, from whatever protestant background it came from, is what you want it to be…the sun is a pagan idol but it shines on us all alike.
 
…the sun is a pagan idol but it shines on us all alike.
And we all enjoy it.😉
 
tabcom said:
Wanting more = Covetousness
Covetousness = Idolatry
Wanting more = Idolatry
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The problem with this is your first point. There is nothing intrinsically wrong with “wanting more.” A homeless woman with starving children obviously wants more food; is she covetous? So, then “wanting more” cannot necessarily equate to idolatry, and your whole argument falls to pieces.
That said, it is obvious (large amounts of debt run up, etc.) that some people have problems with celebrating Christmas responsibly, in a Catholic and thoroughly Biblical manner. However, why does this imply that we should eschew Christmas, or any of its trappings? We all know that many people use the internet to access pornography, etc.; should we eschew all use of the internet?
 
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