Is the Church really hording wealth?

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iamme said:
im only addressing this, because the res basically sounds like speech to the senate about how the church needs some bail out cash.
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Except that it doesn’t need a bailout. That’s the whole point. The Catholic Church is able to undertake remarkable charity, and a huge portion of its budget is devoted to that. It is also an institution that is in a unique position among world religions… it’s the only religion that has it’s own independent country. As such, it also has to run the Curia, which is basically the political cabinet and operations of the Vatican. This feature gives the Vatican some really big advantages. It can have embassies and official relations around the world, which gives it unique opportunities to aid peace talks and influence leaders. It also allows it to maintain an independence from the political control of any other nation (in a weird way, its the ultimate separation of church and state). It is also not a sin to raise large amounts of money. Given everything it does, the Vatican is remarkably scrupulous about how much it spends on itself. It should also be known that the Vatican budget is a matter of public record. It’s not hiding anything.
as an artist, i agree art is meant to inspire, evoke and illicit many things for many people, but they should be allowed to do it on their own neutral terms. the vatican may give shows to us lil folk, but they should just give it to a museum, where it will be shared with so many more, people who would otherwise never see it. and while WE should give our finest, its in my personal opinion that the church should be humble.
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But most of it IS in museums! The Vatican operates four of the largest museums in the world, and they are among the largest tourist attractions in Rome. The Vatican’s art collection is one of the most seen art collections in the entire world. It also permits public tours of the entire Vatican, including St. Peter’s and the Sistine Chapel, as well as most of the other major cathedrals of Europe. They are in no way closed to the general public or non-Catholics. The revenue then goes toward charity, restoration and maintainance of the art, and the operating budget of the Vatican.

mv.vatican.va/3_EN/pages/MV_Home.html

Also, much of that art WAS done on it’s own, neutral terms, and then donated to the Vatican.

As far as the church being humble, who says it isn’t? The reason Catholic Churches are so large and grand is because the Catholic Church is one of the largest religions in the world. With 1.2 billion members, and 25% of the US population Catholic, most Catholic Churches are large, and have to be that way. When most of Europe was Catholic, it was also more practical to build one large cathedral that held 12,000 people than many smaller churches across the city. Then, everyone could be truly unified in worship, and resources could be put into one single magnificent building, then many smaller, less inspiring ones.
but again, reading your post, it just seems like church is at least in meium, if not big business…
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meium… not sure what your saying there? Museum?

The Church is not exactly a big business (compared to most big businesses, it wouldn’t even rate medium-size), but it is an independent nation. As such, it does have a secular arm. There’s nothing wrong with that. It is simply a tool to help it in it’s worldwide mission to speak the Word of God and operate charities.
 
iamme said:
you mean a whole defcit of about 12 million dollars?
and then you want to compare 1st world countries maintaining billion dollar budgets with TRILLION dollar deficits?

yeah, i dont think that works out in your favor man…
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I’m not sure you understood my point- and I’m certain that I didn’t understand your’s.

So let me break this down for you:

-People accuse the vatican of having piles and piles of money that they’re withholding from the needy.

-The truth is that the GDP of Vatican City is smaller than the annual income of some private individuals around the world.

-The only valid conclusion one could draw regarding their budget deficit, in this context, is that their income is insufficient to meet their needs.

Bringing up the fact that other countries have larger deficits makes no sense whatsoever.
 
The Catholic Church is also not a puritan religion. Though some in the Church have the venerable charism of poverty and simplicity this is not a necessary component of the universal Church.

Indeed when the woman in the gospels went to pour expensive oils on the feet of Jesus and some desciples sought to rebuke this as they believed this money could be used for the poor. Jesus rebuked them and praised the woman for her love saying “you will always have the poor you will not always have me.”

Thank God we do have beautiful souls like Mother Theresa called to simplicity and community of property in the most radical sense.

But again the Church has stuff- not money. As the faithful we “own” the beauty of the vatican and it’s treasures.

And know that many churches and chapels of contemplative religious like the Trappists, Carthusians, and some Franciscans- are simple and beautiful affairs.

Indeed if you were to see the personal living quarters of the recent Popes you would find them quite spartan.

Both the grandeur of the Vatican and the simplicity of a small country church are splendid- each in it’s own way.

Now these contemporary churches- that’s a little different.😉
 
iamme said:
as an artist, i agree art is meant to inspire, evoke and illicit many things for many people, but they should be allowed to do it on their own neutral terms. the vatican may give shows to us lil folk, but they should just give it to a museum, where it will be shared with so many more, people who would otherwise never see it. and while WE should give our finest, its in my personal opinion that the church should be humble.
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The Vatican lends artifacts to museums and travelling exhibits all the time- specifically for the purpose of making their holdings available for all to see.

Google “Vatican Exhibits” and you’ll see that there are numerous exhibits going on almost constantly.
 
Let me assure you all that the Church is truly wealthy. So much so that its riches are out of this world.
 
Oscarthecat said:
I’m not sure you understood my point- and I’m certain that I didn’t understand your’s.

So let me break this down for you:

-People accuse the vatican of having piles and piles of money that they’re withholding from the needy.

-The truth is that the GDP of Vatican City is smaller than the annual income of some private individuals around the world.

-The only valid conclusion one could draw regarding their budget deficit, in this context, is that their income is insufficient to meet their needs.

Bringing up the fact that other countries have larger deficits makes no sense whatsoever.
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…

YOURE the one who compared it to a larger country first, not me…
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oscarthecat:
Given that most 1st world countries maintain billion dollar budgets, I hardly think the Vatican’s annual budget of $371.91 million justifies the common misperception that it is exorbitantly wealthy, particularly when you consider that the primary aims of that budget are evangelization and charitable work.
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all i said, was if you ACTUALLY compare the two deficits, the deficit the vatican has negligible…
also, misperception isnt a word…
 
Regarding the Church’s artwork and artifacts:
It is not within the Pope, or any other religious person’s RIGHT to sell that. It does not belong to them. It belongs to US, the people.
Should the US government sell everything from the Smithsonian museums to cover our national debt? Of course not! It’s not really theirs to sell. Also, the ‘worth’ of them is far beyond monetary.
And think about this - EVERYTHING the Catholic church has was donated - either the item was donated directly or it was through donations that the item was acquired.
So, let’s take this to a personal level. Let’s say your daughter works very hard to earn enough money to buy you diamond earrings. What would she think if you pawned them? Would her feelings be hurt? I would imagine yes. Why? Because she worked hard to buy you something that would please you. And you sold it. She bought it really to honor you, and you sold it. So, why would the church act differently? I have donated toys to the church for their cry room. I would be mighty miffed if they up and gave them away. They’re for the parish, dang it!
Also, there is NO organization in the world which runs more soup kitchens, orphanages and hospitals than the Catholic church. None. Does she think hospitals in sub-Saharan Africa, orphanages, and soup kitchens generate huge revenue? Not exactly.
Plus, who is benefiting from all of this ‘wealth’. The pope? Honestly, WHO exactly is hording, what are they hording and for what purpose? It’s obviously not going tot he priests and nuns, nor to the bishops, so who?
Is she upset that churches are decorated as ornately as they are? Why shouldn’t they be? When I have friends over for dinner, I serve good wine, good meats, scrumptious deserts. I bring out fine china. I put out flowers. And that’s just for my FRIENDS. Shouldn’t I treat my Lord at least as well?
 
its hoarding everyone, not hording.
sorry, it just drives me crazy sometimes.
 
iamme said:
its hoarding everyone, not hording.
sorry, it just drives me crazy sometimes.
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Doh! And things like that make me crazy too! Seriously! This is what I get for watching Tool Academy on VH1 while I type…
 
iamme said:
…

YOURE the one who compared it to a larger country first, not me…
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I compared their BUDGETS not their DEFICITS.

Your comment makes me question whether you understand that a budget and a deficit are not the same thing.

A budget, in this case, is the annual estimate of a country’s income.
A deficit is the amount by which a budget’s expenses exceed its income.

So, I compared the budget of Vatican City to other first world countries, and pointed out that VC has budget deficits as evidence that it is not the extremely wealthy world power some believe it to be.

You later compared the deficit of VC to nations with larger deficits.
all i said, was if you ACTUALLY compare the two deficits, the deficit the vatican has negligible…
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has negligible what?

Anyway…
It doesn’t matter whether the Vatican has a small deficit or a large deficit- that it has a deficit AT ALL demonstrates that it isn’t sitting on piles and piles of money as some would have us believe.
also, misperception isnt a word…
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Might want to let the folks over at Webster’s in on that little secret. They appear to be under the misperception that it is a word.

Mispercep´tion
n. 1. Erroneous perception.
webster-dictionary.net/definition/Misperception

And one last thing, since you’ve taken up the mantle of everyone’s favorite forum stickler, the “Grammar Cop” :onpatrol: …

[SIGN]“isnt” isn’t a word[/SIGN]
 
Oscarthecat said:
I compared their BUDGETS not their DEFICITS.

Your comment makes me question whether you understand that a budget and a deficit are not the same thing.

A budget, in this case, is the annual estimate of a country’s income.
A deficit is the amount by which a budget’s expenses exceed its income.

So, I compared the budget of Vatican City to other first world countries, and pointed out that VC has budget deficits as evidence that it is not the extremely wealthy world power some believe it to be.

You later compared the deficit of VC to nations with larger deficits.

has negligible what?

Anyway…
It doesn’t matter whether the Vatican has a small deficit or a large deficit- that it has a deficit AT ALL demonstrates that it isn’t sitting on piles and piles of money as some would have us believe.

Might want to let the folks over at Webster’s in on that little secret. They appear to be under the misperception that it is a word.

Mispercep´tion
n. 1. Erroneous perception.
webster-dictionary.net/definition/Misperception

And one last thing, since you’ve taken up the mantle of everyone’s favorite forum stickler, the “Grammar Cop” :onpatrol: …

[SIGN]“isnt” isn’t a word[/SIGN]
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my mistake, it is a word.
but while your in the dictionary there, look up grammar.
it doesnt mean what you seem to think it means.

also, when i said has, i meant was, as in “it was negligible”.
and if you actually think you can only compare the budget of something to the deficit of another then…
yea logic?
 
tomarin: I’m in full agreement with you on supporting the aging religious. These indepenant orders are in dire need of financial aid and I feel strongly that anyone who was raised Catholic and taught by nuns and priests of various orders needs to step up to the plate and make an effort to “pay back” for the educations we received from these men and women. They are grateful for donations of any size.

However, I would only support the orders that still maintain the philosophy and true charism of the founders…not these wacky liberal orders. (I’m sure I just opened a giant can of worms with THAT one ! )
 
Isn’t it interesting…

a museum owns a priceless work of art and it is “preserving culture”…

but the Church owns a priceless work of art and people accuse it of “hording wealth”.

We live in a world of double standards.
 
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