Is the desire and enjoyment of sexual pleasure during marital intercourse sinful?

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Ben_Sinner

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I thought it was a no-brainer, but then I ran into this article by Crisis Magazine written by Dusty Gates.

crisismagazine.com/2014/sexual-desire-holy

He showed some shocking quotes from St. Augustine basically saying that sexual pleasure is not a good and should be fought off during sexual intercourse. Sexual desire and intercourse are ONLY for the procreation of children.

While Gates isn’t in agreement with this strict outlook of sex, he does say that sexual pleasure should be enjoyed, but not dwelled upon.

The transcendentals, in the Platonic sense, are not so much goods to be enjoyed themselves as instances of beauty which move us beyond the sensual to the realm of the true. In other words, as we enjoy them, we should begin realizing that we aren’t supposed to dwell in that enjoyment.

Aren’t supposed to dwell in the enjoyment?

Does that mean that we should treat sexual pleasure as some ‘side effect’ during intercourse and we should a “Have your eye on the prize. For a baby!” mentality in the bedroom?

One can’t consciously dwell on how awesome this pleasure feels and would like to continue feeling it?

If a husband sees his wife in a “sexy” outfit, gets really aroused to the point of wanting to have sex with her, he wouldn’t be allowed to morally do so? He has to have the mindset of “Let’s make a baby” in order to morally act on his desire with intercourse with her?

They can enjoy it, but there is some time limit or quota they are allowed to consciously enjoy it?
 
Your first instinct was correct. It’s a no brainer.

Try not to let quotes from a person mess with the deployment of logic.
 
Those crazy saints! 🙂 I recall somewhere on here recently someone saying not everything a saint has said is neccessarily true. This one is a good example.
 
It seems self-defeating. How would a man consistently and successfully perform and impregnate his wife if he’s also doing his best not to enjoy the act nor dwell on his wife’s beauty?
 
As Abraham Lincoln said, “Don’t believe everything you read on the Internet.”

😉
 
St. Augustine AND Crisis Magazine…

Two places I would NOT take marital advice from…
 
Ben_Sinner said:
Does that mean that we should treat sexual pleasure as some ‘side effect’ during intercourse and we should a “Have your eye on the prize. For a baby!” mentality in the bedroom?
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I’m not an expert, but I’ve been studying Pope St. JPIIs Theology of the body for the past few months and I am wondering something.

Is the “prize” of intercourse a baby? Or is the “prize” a small glimpse of our eternal union with God?

If the latter is the case, then the real question would be are we having sex selfishly and lustfully for the pleasure that it gives us, or are we having sex as an expression of the spiritual union and love you have with your spouse?

And if THAT is the case, shouldn’t a child be desired every time intercourse happens, because a child is the physical reality that develops from that love?

I don’t know. That’s just what I thought of when I read the post
 
When reading articles, you have to look at who is writing, when they are writing, and why they are writing.

Augustine was writing at a different time then we live in now, with a different understanding of life.

My Grandparents thought that sex was a needed evil in marriage.

On the other hand… today, people only think of sex as pleasurable. And many engage in sex selfishly, not giving to the other, but taking from. That is, they are only thinking about what they are getting. Or as the words in the Bob Seger song, “I used her, and she used me, but neither one cared.”

Somewhere, we need to find Waylon Jennings, and “get back to the basics of life.”
 
I think you also have to look at St. Augustine’s rather negative experiences with sex and relationships. From what I have read, he had a lot of couplings that were sex-only and he was forced into a traumatic separation from the one woman with whom he had a 15-year attachment and a child. It’s easy to see how someone who has had these experiences might embrace a negative view of sex. It might say more about his own thoughts, feelings and weaknesses than it does about people in general.

Saints are way better than the average human, but are not perfect. They aren’t Jesus. They have faults. I’ve always been a bit put off by St. Augustine’s views on sex myself, as well as the manner in which he handled the relationship with his lover, but he was a product of his time and acting within the social customs of his time. It doesn’t take away from the fact that he was also a great theologian.
 
If it wasn’t to be enjoyed no one would do it…and there would be no children!

Make sure you are married, though! 😛
 
One good way to avoid enjoyment is to think of something really sad. Or worry that some terrible thing will happen, like Kim Loony Moon will deploy a warhead just when you are enjoying the act. That will squash it every time, like a bug under a steamroller.

Naturally the spouse may be pretty ticked off.
 
Crusaderbear said:
Those crazy saints! 🙂 I recall somewhere on here recently someone saying not everything a saint has said is neccessarily true. This one is a good example.
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That might have been me you are referring to, maybe, as there are hundreds of posters, but recently what I said was that many saints can differ on beliefs, not that “not all they say is necessarily true”. I would take in consideration anything a saint has said, no matter how bizarre or wrong it may seem. That doesn’t mean I’d always come to the same conclusion, but that we should respect our saints. One can learn a lot when you pause your own thoughts and constructively think about the variables. Still doesn’t mean you would agree but understanding another’s view (speaking about the faithful) can help you grow spiritually.

Having said that, instead of dismissing what St. Augustine said, try to see what he said from his perspective. It might actually start to make sense to you and you won’t have to disrespect a saint by putting down their thoughts. I do believe the church does the same as they don’t claim to know everything, but they recognize their sanctity, piety, virtue, etc.

A better idea, pray to St. Augustine and The Holy Spirit for the gift of understanding and in this particular writing.
 
truetofaith said:
If it wasn’t to be enjoyed no one would do it…and there would be no children!

Make sure you are married, though! 😛
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I have often wondered about this. I can recall seeing centuries old religious paintings which depict biblical couples embracing more as if they are good friends. Its confusing.

It’s easy to think that views on marital relations have always been the same, but I think they have changed, especially now, in the last 20 years, the “importance” of people getting their fill of superb sexual delights has increased to the point some believe it’s their right and the only thing in life worth pursuing… or rather, at least this is what is touted seemingly in the media (in this nation). One can’t deny these common notions and ideas about sex have a way of steering our beliefs and seeping deep into the construct of our psyche. This is why purity (and fasting from sexual relations as St. Paul spoke about) is so important.
 
Tis_Bearself said:
I think you also have to look at St. Augustine’s rather negative experiences with sex and relationships. From what I have read, he had a lot of couplings that were sex-only and he was forced into a traumatic separation from the one woman with whom he had a 15-year attachment and a child. It’s easy to see how someone who has had these experiences might embrace a negative view of sex. It might say more about his own thoughts, feelings and weaknesses than it does about people in general.

Saints are way better than the average human, but are not perfect. They aren’t Jesus. They have faults. I’ve always been a bit put off by St. Augustine’s views on sex myself, as well as the manner in which he handled the relationship with his lover, but he was a product of his time and acting within the social customs of his time. It doesn’t take away from the fact that he was also a great theologian.
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I agree. All of our experiences are going to color our perceptions on a subject. He may have harsh views, but people should remember, he also LIVED through the consequences and subsequent pain of these experiences. It is immensely helpful to the navigation of our own lives in that respect. We learn through each other’s experiences.
 
Ben_Sinner said:
I thought it was a no-brainer, but then I ran into this article by Crisis Magazine written by Dusty Gates.

crisismagazine.com/2014/sexual-desire-holy

He showed some shocking quotes from St. Augustine basically saying that sexual pleasure is not a good and should be fought off during sexual intercourse. Sexual desire and intercourse are ONLY for the procreation of children.

While Gates isn’t in agreement with this strict outlook of sex, he does say that sexual pleasure should be enjoyed, but not dwelled upon.

The transcendentals, in the Platonic sense, are not so much goods to be enjoyed themselves as instances of beauty which move us beyond the sensual to the realm of the true. In other words, as we enjoy them, we should begin realizing that we aren’t supposed to dwell in that enjoyment.

Aren’t supposed to dwell in the enjoyment?

Does that mean that we should treat sexual pleasure as some ‘side effect’ during intercourse and we should a “Have your eye on the prize. For a baby!” mentality in the bedroom?

One can’t consciously dwell on how awesome this pleasure feels and would like to continue feeling it?

If a husband sees his wife in a “sexy” outfit, gets really aroused to the point of wanting to have sex with her, he wouldn’t be allowed to morally do so? He has to have the mindset of “Let’s make a baby” in order to morally act on his desire with intercourse with her?

They can enjoy it, but there is some time limit or quota they are allowed to consciously enjoy it?
Click to expand...
Hi. I think the first thing to question is a magazine attempting to place a Saint into a tarnished light.

Why not question what the magazine has written by looking up St. Augustine’s writings and seeing from what context he was speaking, and why he might have said what it was he said that the magazine says he did, if he did.

Then…take it to prayer and think about it.

Thanks.
🙂
 
Ben_Sinner said:
I thought it was a no-brainer, but then I ran into this article by Crisis Magazine written by Dusty Gates.

crisismagazine.com/2014/sexual-desire-holy

He showed some shocking quotes from St. Augustine basically saying that sexual pleasure is not a good and should be fought off during sexual intercourse. Sexual desire and intercourse are ONLY for the procreation of children.

While Gates isn’t in agreement with this strict outlook of sex, he does say that sexual pleasure should be enjoyed, but not dwelled upon.

The transcendentals, in the Platonic sense, are not so much goods to be enjoyed themselves as instances of beauty which move us beyond the sensual to the realm of the true. In other words, as we enjoy them, we should begin realizing that we aren’t supposed to dwell in that enjoyment.

Aren’t supposed to dwell in the enjoyment?

Does that mean that we should treat sexual pleasure as some ‘side effect’ during intercourse and we should a “Have your eye on the prize. For a baby!” mentality in the bedroom?

One can’t consciously dwell on how awesome this pleasure feels and would like to continue feeling it?

If a husband sees his wife in a “sexy” outfit, gets really aroused to the point of wanting to have sex with her, he wouldn’t be allowed to morally do so? He has to have the mindset of “Let’s make a baby” in order to morally act on his desire with intercourse with her?

They can enjoy it, but there is some time limit or quota they are allowed to consciously enjoy it?
Click to expand...
NO, NOT at ALL so long as such is open to the POSSIBILITY of procreation.

Our Catechism teaches that sex in marriage has two ends:

The POSSIBILITY of offspring [children]

The “Unitive” end; what I have long termed as “marriage cement”… Sexual enjoyment is bit one of the benefits of married sex.👍

652 “By its very nature the institution of marriage and married love is ordered to the procreation and education of the offspring and it is in them that it finds its crowning glory.”

Children are the supreme gift of marriage and contribute greatly to the good of the parents themselves. God himself said: “It is not good that man should be alone,” and “from the beginning [he] made them male and female”; wishing to associate them in a special way in his own creative work, God blessed man and woman with the words: “Be fruitful and multiply.” Hence, true married love and the whole structure of family life which results from it, without diminishment of the other ends of marriage, are directed to disposing the spouses to cooperate valiantly with the love of the Creator and Savior, who through them will increase and enrich his family from day to day

2366 Fecundity is a gift, an end of marriage, for conjugal love naturally tends to be fruitful. A child does not come from outside as something added on to the mutual love of the spouses, but springs from the very heart of that mutual giving, as its fruit and fulfillment. So the Church, which is “on the side of life,” teaches that “it is necessary that each and every marriage act remain ordered per se to the procreation of human life.” “This particular doctrine, expounded on numerous occasions by the Magisterium, is based on the inseparable connection, established by God, which man on his own initiative may not break, between the unitive significance and the procreative significance which are both inherent to the marriage act.”

2363 The spouses’ union achieves the twofold end of marriage: the good of the spouses themselves and the transmission of life. These two meanings or values of marriage cannot be separated without altering the couple’s spiritual life and compromising the goods of marriage and the future of the family. The conjugal love of man and woman thus stands under the twofold obligation of fidelity and fecundity.

God Bless you,

Thanks for asking

Patrick
 
There has to be some enjoyment involved; otherwise the man won’t be able to climax.
 
Ben_Sinner said:
I thought it was a no-brainer, but then I ran into this article by Crisis Magazine written by Dusty Gates.

crisismagazine.com/2014/sexual-desire-holy

He showed some shocking quotes from St. Augustine basically saying that sexual pleasure is not a good and should be fought off during sexual intercourse. Sexual desire and intercourse are ONLY for the procreation of children.

While Gates isn’t in agreement with this strict outlook of sex, he does say that sexual pleasure should be enjoyed, but not dwelled upon.

The transcendentals, in the Platonic sense, are not so much goods to be enjoyed themselves as instances of beauty which move us beyond the sensual to the realm of the true. In other words, as we enjoy them, we should begin realizing that we aren’t supposed to dwell in that enjoyment.

Aren’t supposed to dwell in the enjoyment?

Does that mean that we should treat sexual pleasure as some ‘side effect’ during intercourse and we should a “Have your eye on the prize. For a baby!” mentality in the bedroom?

One can’t consciously dwell on how awesome this pleasure feels and would like to continue feeling it?

If a husband sees his wife in a “sexy” outfit, gets really aroused to the point of wanting to have sex with her, he wouldn’t be allowed to morally do so? He has to have the mindset of “Let’s make a baby” in order to morally act on his desire with intercourse with her?

They can enjoy it, but there is some time limit or quota they are allowed to consciously enjoy it?
Click to expand...
I think your initial feeling is correct, this is no brainer.
If this was the case then NFP would be intrinsically immoral as it involves the spouses engaging in sex when they know the woman is naturally infertile.
But the Church teaches that NFP can be used legitimately to avoid pregnancy.

Also, if the married couple was supposed to"fight off" feelings of enjoyment then I don’t see how anyone would ever get an orgasm, or even get to the point where they could be bothered to have sex.

I think this guy seems to contradict himself as well, somehow trying to argue that marital sex gets in the way of holiness but at the same time is all that JPII said it was in his writings.
 
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