Is the Doctrine of Election Biblical?

[NonCatholic]

Among the most hotly contested and persistent debates in the history of the confessing church; the doctrine of election is perhaps the greatest of all. The questions go like this; Does God choose sinners to be saved and then provide for their salvation? Or, does God provide the way of salvation that sinners must choose for themselves?

The question of “choice” is called “election” because of the Greek word for those who are chosen; they are called eklektos.

**Romans 8:33 **“Who shall lay anything to the charge of God’s elect? It is God that justifieth;”

The answer is “no one”, but why? Is it because I chose God, or is it because God chose me?

 

[Dogface_Soldier]

i think the easy answer is 1 Tim 2:3-4: [God] desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. Further, Pope B16 has a great point in Deus Caritus est: God desires our love, and a condition of love is a choice not to love. In the absence of choice, the relationship cannot be one of love. I’ve not seen all that many arguments for election or double-predestination, and none of those were at all persuasive. They mostly seem to seize upon one snippet of scripture taken out of context and enlarged beyond its face-value meaning.

 

[NonCatholic]

i think the easy answer is 1 Tim 2:3-4: [God] desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. Further, Pope B16 has a great point in Deus Caritus est: God desires our love, and a condition of love is a choice not to love. In the absence of choice, the relationship cannot be one of love. I’ve not seen all that many arguments for election or double-predestination, and none of those were at all persuasive. They mostly seem to seize upon one snippet of scripture taken out of context and enlarged beyond its face-value meaning.

If the penalty for just a single sin is death; then wouldn’t God show His love by just saving one person?

 

[agangbern]

The questions go like this; Does God choose sinners to be saved and then provide for their salvation? Or, does God provide the way of salvation that sinners must choose for themselves?

It is both: God chooses and God provides.

 

[Nita]

Among the most hotly contested and persistent debates in the history of the confessing church; the doctrine of election is perhaps the greatest of all. The questions go like this; Does God choose sinners to be saved and then provide for their salvation? Or, does God provide the way of salvation that sinners must choose for themselves?
Where (among whom) do these “most hotly contested and persistent debates” take place? It is not really an issue within Catholicism.

The question of “choice” is called “election” because of the Greek word for those who are chosen; they are called eklektos.

 

[NonCatholic]

Where (among whom) do these “most hotly contested and persistent debates” take place? It is not really an issue within Catholicism.

It’s both. It is God choosing you and you responding and choosing Him. We know that God desires that all should be saved ( cf 2 Peter 3:9 The Lord … not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance.") So you might say, on His part God has elected/chosen all of us. Unfortunately, it seems that not all reciprocate and choose Him.

There is another type of election on God’s part however; the “election” of certain people for specific roles in salvation history. For example, Abraham to be the father of the Jewish people; Moses to lead the Israelites from Egypt; Mary to be the Morther of the Saviour; etc. But I don’t think that is what you are referring to. Correct me if I’m wrong.

Nita

So God waits around for us to choose Him? Your getting warmer; something like that?

Ephesians 1:7a “7 In Him **we have redemption **through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace”

Ephesians 1:9 He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him

Ephesians 1:11 "also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will,"

John 1:12-13 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, {even} to those who believe in His name, 13 who were born, not of blood **nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God. **

Election does not exclude human responsibility or the necessity of each person to respond to the gospel by faith. Jesus said, “All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out” (John 6:37)

Admittedly the two concepts, God does it according to His will and purpose, yet we must come by faith, don’t seem to fit together. However both are true separately, and we must accept them by faith.

 

[SHW]

"Election does not exclude human responsibility or the necessity of each person to respond to the gospel by faith. Jesus said, “All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out” (John 6:37)

The Father only gives “the ones” to Jesus whom He foreknew would be in a state of sanctifying grace at their deaths. (Romans 8:28-30, 1 Peter 1:2)

Check out members.cox.net/studyhisword/EternalSecurity.pdf for more Scripture Study on this topic.

Blessings,
SHW

 

[NonCatholic]

The Father only gives “the ones” to Jesus whom He foreknew would be in a state of sanctifying grace at their deaths. (Romans 8:28-30, 1 Peter 1:2)

Check out members.cox.net/studyhisword/EternalSecurity.pdf for more Scripture Study on this topic.

Blessings,
SHW

I think we agree, God gave faith to believe as a gift as well.

 

[M0nkey]

So God waits around for us to choose Him?

First of all, there is no doctrine of election within the Church simply because these are matters that only God knows. We believe that there is a number of righteous in which God has called but that number only he may know. All we have to do is love him, trust him, and pray for the salvation of souls. God has given us free will and if we don’t ask for salvation he may not give it. For he does what he wills, he may show mercy or devour you and you can’t tame a lion.

 

[porthos11]

Election, or predestination is indeed accepted in Catholic teaching, since as the OP pointed out, it’s Biblical. There’s really no getting around the Biblical notion that God has predestined at least some for salvation. There are two schools of thought on this, the Thomist and Molinist. They basically deal with the question on how grace and free will work together for those whom God has predestined for salvation. Both schools of thought are acceptable in the Church.

What is NOT acceptable is double predestination, i.e. that God has also predestined some people for hell, since, as another wise poster cited earlier, God desires the salvation of all men.

 

[M0nkey]

Yes, but correct me if I’m wrong here. Is it a doctrine of the Church? I thought it was offered more as commentary. God Bless.

 

[porthos11]

Yes, but correct me if I’m wrong here. Is it a doctrine of the Church? I thought it was offered more as commentary. God Bless.

Yep. Predestination is Catholic doctrine. See Catechism #600 for starters.

 

[Nita]

…So God waits around for us to choose Him? Your getting warmer; something like that?

??? I’m not grasping your point. God does wait for our response (Eg. Father of the Prodigal Son; Rom 2:4-5). Of course, since God is outside time, the expession “wait” when applied to God is only analogous.

Admittedly the two concepts, God does it according to His will and purpose, yet we must come by faith, don’t seem to fit together. However both are true separately, and we must accept them by faith.

If one considers that God’s will INCLUDES a free response on the part of each person - then the “two concepts” are not separate truths that “don’t seem to fit together”. Rather, they are the two components that make up, or constitute, what “His Will/Counsel” consists of (in regards to our redemption).

Nita

 

[Nita]

Yep. Predestination is Catholic doctrine. See Catechism #600 for starters.

*CCC #600 To God, all moments of time are present in their immediacy. When therefore he establishes his eternal plan of “predestination,” **he includes in it each person’s free response *to his grace:…

It always seems wise to me to stress that Catholic understanding of predestination is to be understood in a way that does not do away with one’s exercise of free will.

Nita

 

[ncgolf]

*CCC #600 To God, all moments of time are present in their immediacy. When therefore he establishes his eternal plan of “predestination,” **he includes in it each person’s free response ***to his grace:…

It always seems wise to me to stress that Catholic understanding of predestination is to be understood in a way that does not do away with one’s exercise of free will.

Nita

Admittedly I, believe this the Catholic understanding, put in practice I find it difficult to get my mind around it. Some things I understand better than others.

 

[Nita]

Admittedly I, believe this the Catholic understanding, put in practice I find it difficult to get my mind around it…

Join the crowd.
There are lots of mysteries I find it difficult to "get my mind around – the Trinity, eternity, …

 

[sandusky]

*CCC #600 To God, all moments of time are present in their immediacy. When therefore he establishes his eternal plan of “predestination,” **he includes in it each person’s free response ***to his grace:…

It always seems wise to me to stress that Catholic understanding of predestination is to be understood in a way that does not do away with one’s exercise of free will.

Neither does the Reformed doctrine of predestination do away with one’s exercise of free will.

 

[NonCatholic]

Election, or predestination is indeed accepted in Catholic teaching, since as the OP pointed out, it’s Biblical. There’s really no getting around the Biblical notion that God has predestined at least some for salvation. There are two schools of thought on this, the Thomist and Molinist. They basically deal with the question on how grace and free will work together for those whom God has predestined for salvation. Both schools of thought are acceptable in the Church.

What is NOT acceptable is double predestination, i.e. that God has also predestined some people for hell, since, as another wise poster cited earlier, God desires the salvation of all men.

Logically, that makes no sense. If He predestined some for heaven, then by default the ones He did not chose, go to hell.

Since He is the creator and we are apart of the creation; therefore the creator has control over the whole creation, that is part of being God.

We come to Him by faith and reject Him for unbelief. The faith that brings the chosen to Him is a gift as well, that gift was not bestowed on the one’s that are in unbelief.

Kind of mind boggling. :coolinoff:

 

[porthos11]

*CCC #600 To God, all moments of time are present in their immediacy. When therefore he establishes his eternal plan of “predestination,” **he includes in it each person’s free response ***to his grace:…It always seems wise to me to stress that Catholic understanding of predestination is to be understood in a way that does not do away with one’s exercise of free will.

Nita

Yes, indeed, and both the Thomist and Molinist opinions always factor in free will.

 

[porthos11]

Logically, that makes no sense. If He predestined some for heaven, then by default the ones He did not chose, go to hell.

That is Church teaching, not my opinion.

The Church basically teaches that God has elected some for salvation, and in his infinite knowledge knows how those people will respond to the graces he gives them. So he gives those graces to the elect that he knows they will freely respond to that will ensure their salvation.

That does not mean those he did not predestine for heaven are predestined for hell. Rather, he allows them to exercise their free will in their response to the graces he chooses to give them. They, too, can reach salvation, since God never deprives anyone of necessary grace. Why he does it that way, I don’t know, since predestination is a matter of God’s own pleasure.