Is the Doctrine of Election Biblical?

[sodak]

We come to Him by faith and reject Him for unbelief. The faith that brings the chosen to Him is a gift as well, that gift was not bestowed on the one’s that are in unbelief.

Kind of mind boggling.

Faith is an action responding to his Grace. Don’t try and limit God. He calls everyone to him by Grace, not just a chosen few.

Perhaps the Church teaching is in error? The son of perdition was preordained to his destiny. Pharaoh was for sure. The Jewish religious leaders were phrophetized they would reject their Christ as part of God plan. I think the Church is in error here.

You are wrong. The Church and Jesus are one. It is amazing that you will believe, as a matter of faith, the Bible that the Church coauthored and edited, but then reject the teachings of the Church. The Church can no more be in error on Doctrines and Morals than the Bible can be in error. Thanks to the Holy Spirit, of course.

Every once in a while, I see a Catholic that seems to get it; I believe you may just be one of them…I’m thankful to God for that. Peace!

Catholics “get it” only to the extent that you agree with our Churches teachings. We answer to a much higher authority than your flawed interpretations.

 

[SHW]

What does timing have to do with it - especially since linear time does not exist in eternity. My post was not about when foreknowledge and predestining occur but about the fact that they are two different things. God can foretell something without predestining it.

I think we can all agree, Catholic and Protestant alike, that persons who are going to heaven were predestined to go there. The remaining question is this: What criterion did God use in order to predestine them?

1 Peter 1:2 “elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ:”

Peter states that the elect were chosen according to (because of, or as a result of) God’s foreknowledge. This means that God saw all of every person’s free will actions before He created them. Because of what He saw by His foreknowledge, He predestined some persons to heaven.

1 Peter 1:16-17 “because it is written, “Be holy, for I am holy.” 17 And if you call on the Father, who** without partiality judges according to each one’s work**, conduct yourselves throughout the time of your stay here in fear;”

Peter states that God judges every person without favoritism. He judges their works only. This is consistent with Judgment Day according to Matthew 25:31-46.

A. God judged everyone before they were born and this judgment was done as a result of His foreknowledge of every person’s every action until their deaths.

B. We do not actually find out the result of His judgment of every person until Judgment Day.

Romans 8:29 “For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.”

Paul is stating that those persons that God foreknew (to be in fellowship with Him is implied) by His foreknowledge, He also predestined.

So what Peter and Paul are saying is that God saw, with His foreknowledge, every person’s actions that they would do after they were born and all throughout their lives. As a result of seeing all of this before He created us, He judged each one of us without favoritism because He only judged our works. As a result of His impartial judgment, He only predestined for eternal life those who would still be in fellowship with Him at their deaths.

The foreknowledge came first, the judgment next, and the predestining last. God knew who would be saved before He created us. However, we don’t know with absolute certainty if we are saved until we die. This is why Paul exhorts: “Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling;” (Philippians 2:12) (cf. 1 Peter 1:16-17) above also.)

Blessings to you.
SHW

 

[SHW]

I originally stated:

(Romans 11:22) states that we must continue in God’s goodness/kindness in order to continue to be saved. If we do not continue, then we will be cut off (damned).

The actual Scripture verse is:

Romans 11:22 “Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off.”

Another way to explain how to “continue in God’s goodness” (or “kindness;” depending on translation) is:

“Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, reconciliation, if you continue in His reconciliation. Otherwise you also will be cut off the Vine. (damned).”

Blessings to you,
SHW

 

[NonCatholic]

Peace to you, too.

Next comes the part that we will probably disagree about.

How do we personally receive God’s free gift of Salvation which was made possible for us by Jesus’ sacrificial death on the cross?

Jesus states that we must believe in Him (John 3:16). Scripture also says that we must be baptized in order to actually wash away our sins (Acts 22:16). (1 Corinthians 6:11) explains that baptism sanctifies us.

We are made holy by Baptism because it washes away our sins and we are now in fellowship with God and the Holy Spirit moves into our souls.

1 Corinthians 6:19 “Or do you not know that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and you are not your own?”

We must cooperate with the Holy Spirit’s grace in our souls in order to remain holy.

Romans 8:13 “For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.”

What if we sin grievous sins after we are saved?

1 Corinthians 3:17 “If anyone defiles the temple of God, God will destroy him. For the temple of God is holy, which temple you are.” (cf. Hebrews 10:26-27)

(Romans 11:22) states that we must continue in God’s goodness/kindness in order to continue to be saved. If we do not continue, then we will be cut off (damned).

How long must we continue in His kindness? (Matthew 10:22) states that we must endure to end of our lives in His kindness in order to be saved.

How do we remain/continue in God’s kindness?
By obeying God’s commandments and doing God’s will according to Matthew 19:17, 1 Corinthians 7:19, 1 John 2:3-5, 1 John 5:3, and Matthew 7:21.

Romans 5:8-11 “But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. 9 Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him. 10 For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life. 11 And not only that, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received the reconciliation.”

How are we “much more saved by His life” after our reconciliation with God?"

We imitate/follow Jesus by obeying His commandments and doing the will of His Father. Jesus shows us, by example, what to do in order for us to inherit eternal life.

Ephesians 5:1 “Therefore be imitators of God as dear children.”

John 5:30 “I can of Myself do nothing. As I hear, I judge; and My judgment is righteous, because I do not seek My own will but the will of the Father who sent Me.”

Matthew 12:50 "For whoever does the will of My Father in heaven is My brother and sister and mother.”

What if we sin grievously after our Baptism? Is there a way to be reconciled again?

Ezekiel 33:12-20 "Therefore you, O son of man, say to the children of your people: ‘The righteousness of the righteous man shall not deliver him in the day of his transgression; as for the wickedness of the wicked, he shall not fall because of it in the day that he turns from his wickedness; nor shall the righteous be able to live (inherit eternal life) because of his righteousness in the day that he sins.’ 13 When I say to the righteous that he shall surely live, but he trusts in his own righteousness and commits iniquity, none of his righteous works shall be remembered; but because of the iniquity that he has committed, he shall die (be damned). 14 Again, when I say to the wicked, ‘You shall surely die,’ if he turns from his sin and does what is lawful and right, 15 if the wicked restores the pledge, gives back what he has stolen, and walks in the statutes of life without committing iniquity, he shall surely live; he shall not die. 16 None of his sins which he has committed shall be remembered against him; he has done what is lawful and right; he shall surely live.
17 “Yet the children of your people say, ‘The way of the Lord is not fair.’ But it is their way which is not fair! 18 When the righteous turns from his righteousness and commits iniquity, he shall die because of it. 19 But when the wicked turns from his wickedness and does what is lawful and right, he shall live because of it. 20 Yet you say, ‘The way of the Lord is not fair.’ O house of Israel, I will judge every one of you according to his own ways.”

1 John 2:1 “My little children, these things I write to you, so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous.”

If we confess our sins and repent and do works worthy of repentance, we will again be saved (Matthew 3:8, 2 Timothy 2:20-26)

Blessings to you,
SHW

**Oh well; you were correct. Baptism of water does not wash away sins; only Jesus does that. the baptism of the Holy Spirit is necessary for salvation; it is how we are sealed., but not water.

You described a works righteousness, but you are not allowed to say that; only act it. **

 

[Nita]

I think we can all agree, Catholic and Protestant alike, that persons who are going to heaven were predestined to go there. The remaining question is this: What criterion did God use in order to predestine them?

1 Peter 1:2 “elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ:”

Peter states that the elect were chosen according to (because of, or as a result of) God’s foreknowledge. This means that God saw all of every person’s free will actions before He created them. Because of what He saw by His foreknowledge, He predestined some persons to heaven.

1 Peter 1:16-17 “because it is written, “Be holy, for I am holy.” 17 And if you call on the Father, who** without partiality judges according to each one’s work**, conduct yourselves throughout the time of your stay here in fear;”

It seems to me that there are a couple of distinct applications of the term “predestination”.

1. What I’ll call a **general **predestination/predetermination on God’s part that those who remain faithful will go to heaven; those who reject Him and do evil will go to hell.
   In other words, God has predestined that the faithful will go to heaven; and predestined that the evil will receive their just punishment (damnation).
2. Then there is the predestination on an individual level - where God, because of His foreknowledge of each individual’s deeds, bestows His graces accordingly (cf Rom 8:29-30 the faithful He conforms to the image of His Son, calls, justifies and brings to eternal glory).

 

[SHW]

**Oh well; you were correct. Baptism of water does not wash away sins; only Jesus does that. the baptism of the Holy Spirit is necessary for salvation; it is how we are sealed., but not water.

You described a works righteousness, but you are not allowed to say that; only act it. **

John the Baptist’s baptism was a baptism of repentance for the remission of sins. His baptism did not remove original sin and other sins from our souls. He prepared the people for later sacramental Baptism which actually applied the merits of Jesus’ death on the cross to our souls and thus reconciled us to God.

Mark 1:4 “John came baptizing in the wilderness and preaching a baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.”

John’s baptism was an outward sign of repentance and prepared the way for Jesus’ baptism. Jesus’ baptism actually cleansed the soul of sin and we are made disciples by this Baptism.

Mark 1:8 “I indeed baptized you with water, but He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit.”

Matthew 3:11 “I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.”

Jesus uses Baptism with water as the means to wash away our sins. Our sins are washed away when water is used with the words, " I baptize you in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit."

Jesus said that it was necessary to do this in order for people to become His disciples:

Matthew 28:19 “Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,”

1 Corinthians 6:11 “And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.”

Paul states that Baptism sanctified (justified) us and that this was done in the name of the Lord Jesus, as Jesus commanded in Matthew 28:19.

The Baptism of the Holy Spirit, or “Confirmation” as we call it because we are “confirmed” in the faith, is shown in Scripture as tongues of fire.

Acts 2:2-4 “And suddenly there came a sound from heaven, as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled the whole house where they were sitting. 3 Then there appeared to them divided tongues, as of fire, and one sat upon each of them. 4 And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.”

Mark 16:16 “He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.”

Acts 2:38 “Then Peter said to them, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.”

Some of the Gentiles received “Confirmation” before their water Baptisms but they still had to receive water Baptism in order to wash away their sins. Acts 10

God performed this miracle with the Gentiles in order to show the Apostles that Gentiles were chosen people also and so that the Apostles/Disciples would baptize them.

Acts 8:15-17 “who, when they had come down, prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit. 16 For as yet He had fallen upon none of them. They had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 17 Then they laid hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit.”

These people received sacramental baptism to remove original sin and personal sin but they still had not been “confirmed” in the faith.

Acts 19:4-6 “Then Paul said, “John indeed baptized with a baptism of repentance, saying to the people that they should believe on Him who would come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.” 5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 6 And when Paul had laid hands on them, the Holy Spirit came upon them, and they spoke with tongues and prophesied.”
**
John’s baptism**: water baptism to show repentance before Jesus’ death on the cross.
Jesus’ baptism: sacrament of baptism to wash away their sins. Baptism is done in the Name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. This Baptism reconciles us with God because it washes away Adam’s sin and all of our own personal sins.
Laying on of hands: receiving the Holy Spirit in sacrament of Confirmation which gives us more graces in order to imitate Christ and inherit eternal life.

The rich young man asked Jesus, “What good thing must I do in order to inherit eternal life?” Jesus answered, “But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments.” Matthew 19:16-18

Blessings to you.
SHW

 

[guanophore]

Perhaps the Church teaching is in error? The son of perdition was preordained to his destiny. Pharaoh was for sure. The Jewish religious leaders were phrophetized they would reject their Christ as part of God plan. I think the Church is in error here.

Actually, you are agreeing to what is said in the post to which you are responding. these are all examples of what the Catholic Church teaches about Predestination.

Baptism of water does not wash away sins; only Jesus does that. the baptism of the Holy Spirit is necessary for salvation; it is how we are sealed., but not water.

The Apostles never separated the Baptism of the Spirit from the water. This is how they understood Jesus when He said “you must be born from above by water and the spirit”.

What does this have to do with the Doctrine of election? It looks like you are derailing your own thread! Are you so hostile about the various elements of the Catholic faith that you cannot restrain yourself from gettng off topic?

 

[firstmode]

Romans 11:33 (New International Version)
Doxology
33Oh, the depth of the riches of the wisdom and[a] knowledge of God!
How unsearchable his judgments,
and his paths beyond tracing out!

Acts 17:26-28 (New International Version)
26From one man he made every nation of men, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he determined the times set for them and the exact places where they should live. 27God did this so that men would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from each one of us. 28’For in him we live and move and have our being.’ As some of your own poets have said, ‘We are his offspring.’

Romans 1:18-23 (New International Version)

God’s Wrath Against Mankind
18The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.

21For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles.

 

[SHW]

Actually, you are agreeing to what is said in the post to which you are responding. these are all examples of what the Catholic Church teaches about Predestination.

I have to disagree with you about Pharaoh and the son of perdition.

There were prophecies about both of these in Scripture. Prophecy came about because of God’s foreknowledge. God saw with His foreknowledge that these men would not do God’s will so God willed that prophecies be made about them by prophets and that their words should become Scripture.

God did not force these men to disobey Him. They used their own free wills to disobey Him. God saw them disobey Him before they were created because God is omniscient (all-knowing). He sees the past, present, and future all at the same time, at all times. Because He saw their disobedience before He created them and He saw that they would not repent before death, He could pre-judge them before they were born and He did pre-judge them before they were born.

All persons whom He foresaw who would still be in the state of grace at their deaths, these He gave to Jesus and He placed them into His hand, never to be snatched out. They cannot be snatched out because of this reason. God saw the future and so He knew that these persons would be saved.

The “elect” are the persons who God pre-judged in this same manner, before they were created. They were predestined to heaven because God foresaw that after they were created, they were still in the state of grace when they died.

The “elect” are the predestined. Predestined is not used in a negative manner in Scripture. Notice that Scripture never says that He predestined anyone to hell. People are condemned to hell but they are never predestined to hell. People can only be predestined to eternal life. People can only be predestined to be the elect.

Our sins condemn us to hell. God judges our works. He judges every person’s works without favoritism towards any person. God judged our works before we were born because He foresaw all of our works before we were born.

1 Peter 1:17 “And if you call on the Father, who without partiality judges according to each one’s work, conduct yourselves throughout the time of your stay here in fear;”

We become the elect according to (as a result of) this foreknowledge.

1 Peter 1:1-3 “Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To the pilgrims of the Dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, 2 elect according to (as a result of) the foreknowledge of God the Father, in sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ”

When He saw with His foreknowledge, before we were created, that we were going to be in the state of grace at our deaths, then He predestined us to heaven. He predestined us to be His elect because of His foreknowledge.

Pharaoh, son of perdition, Peter, Paul, SHW, etc., we were all pre-judged before we were born, for either heaven or hell, depending on our own free will actions which He saw us do with His foreknowledge. If He saw that we were in the state of grace when we died, He predestined us to be His elect.

Romans 8:30 “Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.”

This was all done as a result of His foreknowledge about each of us. He predestines no person to hell. There is no such thing. A person is condemned to hell, not predestined to hell.

Our own actions (works) condemn us to hell. Titus 3:10-12 “Reject a divisive man after the first and second admonition, 11 knowing that such a person is warped and sinning, being self-condemned.”

John 5:28-30 “Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice 29 and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation. 30 I can of Myself do nothing. As I hear, I judge; and My judgment is righteous, because I do not seek My own will but the will of the Father who sent Me.”

James 5:9 “Do not grumble against one another, brethren, lest you be condemned. Behold, the Judge is standing at the door!”

God knows with certainty if we are saved because He saw our whole lives before He created us.

However, we do not know for certain if we will be in the state of grace at our deaths.

This is why Paul exhorts us to “work out your own salvation with fear and trembling” (Philippians 2:12) and Peter states in (1 Peter 1:17) “And if you call on the Father, who without partiality judges according to each one’s work, conduct yourselves throughout the time of your stay here in fear;” and Jude states (Jude 1:22-23) “And on some have compassion, making a distinction; 23 but others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire, hating even the garment defiled by the flesh.”

1 Corinthians 9:27 “But I discipline my body and bring it into subjection, lest, when I have preached to others, I myself should become disqualified.”

We need to be on our guard because we don’t know if we are going to die in the state of grace or not.
Blessings,
SHW

 

[NonCatholic]

Actually, you are agreeing to what is said in the post to which you are responding. these are all examples of what the Catholic Church teaches about Predestination.

The Apostles never separated the Baptism of the Spirit from the water. This is how they understood Jesus when He said “you must be born from above by water and the spirit”. You mean the Catholic Apostles, not the twelve on the Bible; they did not teach water baptism as part of salvation.

**I love the blending the Church does; on Baptism, the Lord’s Supper and justification; same thing the devil did in the garden and with Jesus temptation in the wilderness; just enough twist to keep the one in bondage that cannot see the truth as Jesus did.
**
What does this have to do with the Doctrine of election? It looks like you are derailing your own thread! Are you so hostile about the various elements of the Catholic faith that you cannot restrain yourself from gettng off topic?

No…remember you keep gripping me…LOL

We are off topic, that happens after a while. I think I have said all I can on this topic.

 

[NonCatholic]

I have to disagree with you about Pharaoh and the son of perdition.

There were prophecies about both of these in Scripture. Prophecy came about because of God’s foreknowledge. God saw with His foreknowledge that these men would not do God’s will so God willed that prophecies be made about them by prophets and that their words should become Scripture.

God did not force these men to disobey Him. They used their own free wills to disobey Him. God saw them disobey Him before they were created because God is omniscient (all-knowing). He sees the past, present, and future all at the same time, at all times. Because He saw their disobedience before He created them and He saw that they would not repent before death, He could pre-judge them before they were born and He did pre-judge them before they were born.

All persons whom He foresaw who would still be in the state of grace at their deaths, these He gave to Jesus and He placed them into His hand, never to be snatched out. They cannot be snatched out because of this reason. God saw the future and so He knew that these persons would be saved.

The “elect” are the persons who God pre-judged in this same manner, before they were created. They were predestined to heaven because God foresaw that after they were created, they were still in the state of grace when they died.

The “elect” are the predestined. Predestined is not used in a negative manner in Scripture. Notice that Scripture never says that He predestined anyone to hell. People are condemned to hell but they are never predestined to hell. People can only be predestined to eternal life. People can only be predestined to be the elect.

Our sins condemn us to hell. God judges our works. He judges every person’s works without favoritism towards any person. God judged our works before we were born because He foresaw all of our works before we were born.

1 Peter 1:17 “And if you call on the Father, who without partiality judges according to each one’s work, conduct yourselves throughout the time of your stay here in fear;”

We become the elect according to (as a result of) this foreknowledge.

1 Peter 1:1-3 “Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To the pilgrims of the Dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, 2 elect according to (as a result of) the foreknowledge of God the Father, in sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ”

When He saw with His foreknowledge, before we were created, that we were going to be in the state of grace at our deaths, then He predestined us to heaven. He predestined us to be His elect because of His foreknowledge.

Pharaoh, son of perdition, Peter, Paul, SHW, etc., we were all pre-judged before we were born, for either heaven or hell, depending on our own free will actions which He saw us do with His foreknowledge. If He saw that we were in the state of grace when we died, He predestined us to be His elect.

Romans 8:30 “Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.”

This was all done as a result of His foreknowledge about each of us. He predestines no person to hell. There is no such thing. A person is condemned to hell, not predestined to hell.

Our own actions (works) condemn us to hell. Titus 3:10-12 “Reject a divisive man after the first and second admonition, 11 knowing that such a person is warped and sinning, being self-condemned.”

John 5:28-30 “Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice 29 and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation. 30 I can of Myself do nothing. As I hear, I judge; and My judgment is righteous, because I do not seek My own will but the will of the Father who sent Me.”

James 5:9 “Do not grumble against one another, brethren, lest you be condemned. Behold, the Judge is standing at the door!”

God knows with certainty if we are saved because He saw our whole lives before He created us.

However, we do not know for certain if we will be in the state of grace at our deaths.

This is why Paul exhorts us to “work out your own salvation with fear and trembling” (Philippians 2:12) and Peter states in (1 Peter 1:17) “And if you call on the Father, who without partiality judges according to each one’s work, conduct yourselves throughout the time of your stay here in fear;” and Jude states (Jude 1:22-23) “And on some have compassion, making a distinction; 23 but others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire, hating even the garment defiled by the flesh.”

1 Corinthians 9:27 “But I discipline my body and bring it into subjection, lest, when I have preached to others, I myself should become disqualified.”

We need to be on our guard because we don’t know if we are going to die in the state of grace or not.
Blessings,
SHW

Now that is very Catholic; glad I don’t have to have the guilt and worry associated with that misconception.

 

[guanophore]

Among the most hotly contested and persistent debates in the history of the confessing church; the doctrine of election is perhaps the greatest of all. The questions go like this;** Does God choose sinners to be saved and then provide for their salvation? Or, does God provide the way of salvation that sinners must choose for themselves?**
The question of “choice” is called “election” because of the Greek word for those who are chosen; they are called eklektos.

**Romans 8:33 **“Who shall lay anything to the charge of God’s elect? It is God that justifieth;”

The answer is “no one”, but why? Is it because I chose God, or is it because God chose me?

This is a false dichotomy. There is no need for either/or. In fact the scriptural evidence indicates that it is BOTH. God chooses and provides the way for our salvation. In order for us to benefit from his provision, we must choose to do so. Such a choice, however, cannot be made apart from grace, since none come to Jesus unless the father draw them. Therefore, it is incumbent upon us to cooperate with the Grace of God, which has been always the Apostolic teaching.

 

[SHW]

Now that is very Catholic; glad I don’t have to have the guilt and worry associated with that misconception.

Yes, it is. St. Paul was Catholic, also. He stated: 1 Corinthians 9:27"But I discipline my body and bring it into subjection, lest, when I have preached to others, I myself should become disqualified (condemned). 1 Corinthians 11:1 “Imitate me, just as I also imitate Christ.”

Since St. Paul was concerned about losing his salvation, I think it prudent that I be concerned about my own salvation! Paul urged us to imitate him because he imitates Jesus. What did Jesus do? He did the will of His Father. We must do this also. We do His will by obeying His commandments and producing good fruit. (Matthew 7:21)

There are** two** parts to salvation.

First, we are justified by faith and reconciled to God through the free gift of grace wrought by Jesus’ sacrifice on the cross. We receive this reconciliation through faith and Baptism. (Mark 16:16, Matthew 28:19)

Second, we must continue in this reconciliation with God by obeying His commandments and producing good fruit in order to inherit eternal life.

A person asked Jesus what he needed to do in order to inherit eternal life. Jesus said that if he wanted to enter into life, he had to keep the commandments. (Matthew 19:16-17)

Matthew 7:18-20 “A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire (hell). 20 Therefore by their fruits you will know them.”

James 2:24 “You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.”

Paul told us to “work out our salvation with fear and trembling.” (Philippians 2:12) There would be no need to do this if we were OSAS.

**Salvation consists of two parts. **

1. First: The free gift of grace which justifies us (reconciles us to God). (Ephesians 2:8-10)
2. Second: Obeying God’s commandments and producing good fruit so that we can continue in our reconciliation with God and enter eternal life.

Acts 14:21-23 “And when they had preached the gospel to that city and made many disciples, they returned to Lystra, Iconium, and Antioch, 22 strengthening the souls of the disciples, exhorting them to continue in the faith, and saying, “We must through many tribulations enter the kingdom of God.” 23 So when they had appointed elders in every church, and prayed with fasting, they commended them to the Lord in whom they had believed.”

Romans 11:22-23 “Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.”

If you remain in the state of grace of your reconciliation with God, then you will remain saved. If you do not, then you will be cut off the Vine, Jesus. We are not saved if we are cut off the Vine; we are condemned to hell instead. (John 15:1-6)

Hebrews 10:26-27 “For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth (after we are saved), there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries.”

If you sin grievously after your reconciliation with God which Jesus gave you as a free gift, then you forfeit your salvation.

And unless you repent before death, you will be devoured by hell.

Jesus came so that He could reconcile us to God. After our reconciliation, it is up to us to remain in this reconciliation until our deaths if we wish to inherit eternal life. He gives us the necessary graces to do this and we must use our free wills to cooperate with these graces so that we can remain “in Christ” until our deaths. Or else we can use our free wills to defile our temples with sin and be condemned; our choice.

1 Corinthians 3:16-18 “Do you not know that you are the temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you? 17 If anyone defiles the temple of God, God will destroy him. For the temple of God is holy, which temple you are. 18 Let no one deceive himself. If anyone among you seems to be wise in this age, let him become a fool that he may become wise.”

We are reconciled to God through Baptism, (1 Corinthians 6:11) we are made holy (sanctified) by Baptism and we must then remain in this holiness and not sin grievous sins which cause the death of our souls. (Romans 6:16, 1 John 5:16-17) If we sin and defile our temples, then God will destroy us (condemn us.)

We are judged by our works on Judgment Day. Check Scripture and you will find this to be true. (Matthew 25:31-46, 1 Peter 1:17, 2 Thessalonians 1:7-9, 2 Corinthians 5:9-11)

James 2:24 “You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.”

Salvation is a life-long process; not a one-time event.

Blessings,
SHW

 

[cyber1call]

What is the Bible talking about when it uses the terms “election” and “predestination?” Although some Christians use these terms interchangeably, they are actually two different concepts.

In summary, election means a person has been chosen for a special service. Predestination means God has predetermined that those who become Christians will have certain attributes, such as being “conformed to the likeness of His Son.” Neither of these terms (election and predestination) have anything to do with salvation.

When the Bible says a person is “elected,” it means he has been chosen for something special. As you can see in the verses below, when a person is elected, he is not chosen for salvation, but is chosen to do some special service. The Bible talks about five groups that have been elected to do a specific service. They are:

Nation of Israel
Deut. 7:6,7
Rom. 9:4

Jesus
1 Pet. 2:4,6
Luke 9:35
Luke 23:35

The church
Mt. 24:22,24,31
Mk 13:20,22,27

The 144,000
Rev. 7:4
Rev. 17:14

Angels
1 Tim. 5:21

Election is talking about service, not salvation. In fact, it couldn’t be talking about salvation because Jesus didn’t need to be saved, nor did the angels. Besides, not all of the Israelites were true believers. Therefore, when the nation of Israel was elected, they obviously were not elected (or chosen) for salvation. God’s election is the same in the New Testament as it was in the Old Testament. Therefore, if the election of the Nation of Israel is talking about salvation, all of the present day Jews should be believers. This, of course, is not the case.

Predestination simply means something has been predetermined to take place in the future. Although most Christians think of it in connection with the Bible, this concept is also found in the secular world. For example, anyone who becomes a policeman is predestined to have certain attributes (such as the authority to arrest people). Even Aldous Huxley uses the concept in his book Brave New World. As you can see, the word predestination does not need to have some mystical or divine implication.

Just as man can predetermine certain things to take place in the future, so can God. So, what kind of things did God predestine to take place in the future? Did He predetermine to arbitrarily send people to Heaven and Hell? No. God has predetermined that those who become believers will obtain certain attributes. For example, God has predetermined everyone who becomes a believer will “be conformed to the likeness of his Son” (Romans 8:29, 30) and will be “holy and blameless in His sight” (Ephesians 1:4,5). Predestination talks about what will take place after a person becomes a Christian.

(continued)

 

[cyber1call]

[continued from previous post–here is a breakdown of the specific verses from a Greek lexicon.]

eklektos

ANGELS
1 Timothy 5
21I charge you, in the sight of God and Christ Jesus and the ELECT angels, to keep these instructions without partiality, and to do nothing out of favoritism.

JESUS
1 Peter 2
4As you come to him, the living Stone—rejected by men but CHOSEN by God and precious to him— 5you also, like living stones, are being built into a spiritual house to be a holy priesthood, offering spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ. 6For in Scripture it says: “See, I lay a stone in Zion, a CHOSEN and precious cornerstone, and the one who trusts in him will never be put to shame.”

RUFUS
Romans 16
13Greet Rufus, CHOSEN in the Lord, and his mother, who has been a mother to me, too.

A LOCAL CHURCH (but could be a specific person named KYRIA)
2 John 1
1The elder, To the CHOSEN lady and her children, whom I love in the truth—and not I only, but also all who know the truth

ANOTHER LOCAL CHURCH
2 John 1
13The children of your CHOSEN sister send their greetings.

eklegomai

THE 12 DISCIPLES
John 6
70Then Jesus replied, “Have I not CHOSEN you, the Twelve? Yet one of you is a devil!” 71(He meant Judas, the son of Simon Iscariot, who, though one of the Twelve, was later to betray him.)

FRUIT BEARERS
John 15
16You did not CHOOSE me, but I CHOSE you and appointed you to go and bear fruit–fruit that will last. Then the Father will give you whatever you ask in my name.

THE PATRIARCHS
Acts 13
17The God of the people of Israel CHOSE our fathers; he made the people prosper during their stay in Egypt, with mighty power he led them out of that country…

IDEAS
1 Corinthians 1
27But God CHOSE the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; God CHOSE the weak things of the world to shame the strong. 28He CHOSE the lowly things of this world and the despised things—and the things that are not—to nullify the things that are, 29so that no one may boast before him.

THE POOR
James 2
5Listen, my dear brothers: Has not God CHOSEN those who are poor in the eyes of the world to be rich in faith and to inherit the kingdom he promised those who love him? 6But you have insulted the poor. Is it not the rich who are exploiting you? Are they not the ones who are dragging you into court? 7Are they not the ones who are slandering the noble name of him to whom you belong?

ekloge

PAUL
Acts 9
15But the Lord said to Ananias, "Go! This man is my CHOSEN instrument to carry my name before the Gentiles and their kings and before the people of Israel.

JACOB
Romans 9
10Not only that, but Rebekah’s children had one and the same father, our father Isaac. 11Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad—in order that God’s purpose in ELECTION might stand: 12not by works but by him who calls—she was told, “The older will serve the younger.”

REMNANT OF ISRAEL
Romans 11
1I ask then: Did God reject his people? By no means! I am an Israelite myself, a descendant of Abraham, from the tribe of Benjamin. 2God did not reject his people, whom he foreknew. Don’t you know what the Scripture says in the passage about Elijah—how he appealed to God against Israel: 3"Lord, they have killed your prophets and torn down your altars; I am the only one left, and they are trying to kill me"? 4And what was God’s answer to him? “I have reserved for myself seven thousand who have not bowed the knee to Baal.” 5So too, at the present time there is a remnant CHOSEN by grace. 6And if by grace, then it is no longer by works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace. 7What then? What Israel sought so earnestly it did not obtain, but the ELECT did. …

 

[SHW]

In summary, election means a person has been chosen for a special service. Predestination means God has predetermined that those who become Christians will have certain attributes, such as being “conformed to the likeness of His Son.” Neither of these terms (election and predestination) have anything to do with salvation.

I had never heard this view before. It was interesting.

Mark 13:20 “And unless the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s sake, whom He chose, He shortened the days.”

Romans 11:7 “What then? Israel has not obtained what it seeks; but the elect have obtained it, and the rest were blinded.”

The elect obtained salvation.

2 Peter 1:10-11 “Therefore, brethren, be even more diligent to make your call and election sure, for if you do these things you will never stumble; 11 for so an entrance will be supplied to you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.”

Ephesians 1:3-5 “Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, 5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will,”

Ephesians 1:11 "In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will,

Romans 8:30 “Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.”

It looks to me that the “elect” and the “predestined” are the “saved” and they inherit eternal life.

Blessings,
SHW