Is the E. Orthodox Church the original Church?

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-Denying that Christ is fully present
EITHER in the transformed bread OR wine.
What? They believe in Real Presence; are you saying that they are saying that one must recieve under both species to have the fullness of the Eucharist? Is that what the Orthodox believe?
 
What? They believe in Real Presence; are you saying that they are saying that one must recieve under both species to have the fullness of the Eucharist? Is that what the Orthodox believe?
It’s not an issue, we always commune with both bread and wine. It wasn’t until the Latins decided for whatever reason that it was a good idea to deny the Sacred Chalice to the laity that it became an issue in the Catholic Church.

Yours in Christ
Joe
 
…Have there been validated Eucharistic miracles in the Orthodox Church?
 
Validated? :confused:
Yes. That the Orthodox Church has steped in and said, ‘This is surely a sign from God.’ …Negating the miracle of the bread and wine becoming Flesh & Blood, of course. Validated, as in, they needed to make sure it was from God like the weeping Icon(s).
 
Yes. That the Orthodox Church has steped in and said, ‘This is surely a sign from God.’ …Negating the miracle of the bread and wine becoming Flesh & Blood, of course. Validated, as in, they needed to make sure it was from God like the weeping Icon(s).
I may be wrong but I don’t know that I’ve ever heard of a Church “validating” anything in the way you describe. How would you even go about such a thing?

Yours in Christ
Joe
 
I thought it was a traditional Jewish Seder.
The traditional Jewish seder is not the norm of the 1st century, as the Dead Sea Scrolls etc. show.
And the Orthodox hold to Mary was sinless to her death, right?
Not IC. That’s why we affirm she had a death. From actual sin, yes.
 
Judging from the responses here from our brothers in the East… I am more confident in the primacy of the West.

Come home to Rome.

/
 
I may be wrong but I don’t know that I’ve ever heard of a Church “validating” anything in the way you describe. How would you even go about such a thing?

Yours in Christ
Joe
When our Church had a weeping icon, the bishop immediately came and exorcised the icon, to make sure of the source. Then the icon was examined for devices etc. Then it was announced that yes, there was no natural means that had been discovered. And that was that.

In another icon here in Chicago, the press asked if the Church was going to test the tears. The priest replied “they did that to an icon in New York, and they found out it was the exact chemical composition of human tears. What does that prove?”

Yes, they have been Eucharistic miracles. They not promoted as the object of communion is communion (one priest said that when it turns to actual flesh, its an abomination). We haven’t ever had the persistent denials of the Eucharist in the East, which is also why we never developed Eucharistic Adoration.
 
The traditional Jewish seder is not the norm of the 1st century, as the Dead Sea Scrolls etc. show.

Not IC. That’s why we affirm she had a death. From actual sin, yes.
AHA! Okay, so, the Orthodox believe that she had Original Sin, which is why she died, but, She, Herself, didn’t personally do anything sinful against God.

The Orthodox belief is that Original Sin leads to death where as the Catholics believe that not only does it lead to death, but, it gives us our propensity to sin, do I have this correct?

JospehDaniel29, how does the Orthodox Church make sure a weeping Icon is legitimate and not from the devil? I am thinking that IF there are Eucharistic miracles in the Orthodox Church, it would go about the same way.
 
The dogma of the IC does not affirm that she did not die. The EO have no grounds for objection to it.

Blessings,
Marduk
Tell that to your Immortalists. And some of your Mortalists. I have a discussion once with Fr. Pacwa who claimed that she did die, but volunarily as a disciple of her son.

No grounds? The Fathers?
 
Judging from the responses here from our brothers in the East… I am more confident in the primacy of the West.

Come home to Rome.

/
Several here been there. Done that. That’s why they’re Orthodox.
 
The following article has, I believe, been posted on the net in several locations. It would be good to have it here on this thread that certainly belongs on some onther forum.

The Immaculate Conception and the Orthodox Church

By Father Lev Gillet

From Chrysostom, Vol. VI, No. 5 (Spring 1983), pp. 151-159.

I. It is generally agreed, I think, that the dogma of the Immaculate
Conception is one of the questions which make a clear and profound division between the Roman Catholic and Orthodox Churches. Is this really the case? We shall try to examine quite objectively what Orthodox theological history has to teach us on this matter. Leaving aside the patristic period we shall start on our quest in the time of the Patriarch Photius.

II. It seems to me that three preliminary observations have to be made.

First, it is an undeniable fact that the great majority of the membersof the Orthodox Church did not admit the dogma of the Immaculate Conception as it was defined by Pius IX in 1854.

Secondly, throughout the history of Orthodox theology, we find an
unbroken line of theologians, of quite considerable authority, who
have explicitly denied the Immaculate Conception of the Blessed Virgin Mary. Among them I shall refer to Nicephorus Gallistus in the fourteenth century and Alexander Lebedev in the nineteenth, these two representing the extremities of a chain with many intermediary links. There is even an official document written against the Immaculate Conception: the letter of the Patriarch Anthimus VII, written in 1895; we shall come later to a discussion of its doctrinal value.

Thirdly, we recognize the fact that Latin theologians very often used inadequate arguments in their desire to prove that the Immaculate Conception belonged to the Byzantine theological tradition. They sometimes forced the sense of the poetic expressions to be found in the liturgy of Byzantium; at times they misinterpreted what were merely common Byzantine terms to describe Mary’s incomparable holiness, as a sign of belief in the Immaculate Conception; on other occasions they disregarded the fact that certain Byzantines had only a very vague idea of original sin. Speaking of the Theotokos, Orthodox writers multiplied expressions such as “all holy”, “all pure”, “immaculate”. This does not always mean that these writers believed in the Immaculate Conception. The vast majority – but not all – Orthodox theologians agreed that Mary was purified from original sin before the birth of Our Lord. By this, they usually mean that she was purified in her mother’s womb like John the Baptist. This “sanctification” is not the Immaculate Conception.

The question must be framed in precise theological terms. We do not want to know if Mary’s holiness surpasses all other holiness, or if Mary was sanctified in her mother’s womb. The question is: Was Mary, in the words of Pius IX, “preserved from all stain of original sin at the first moment of her conception” (in primo instanti suae conceptionis)? Is this doctrine foreign to the Orthodox tradition? Is it contrary to that tradition?

III. I shall begin by quoting several phrases which cannot be said
with absolute certainty to imply a belief in the Immaculate Conception but in which it is quite possible to find traces of such a belief.

First of all - the patriarch Photius. In his first homily on the
Annunciation, he says that Mary was sanctified ek Brephous. This is not an easy term to translate; the primary meaning of Brephos is that of a child in the embryonic state. Ek means origin or starting point. The phrase seems to me to mean not that Mary was sanctified in the embryonic state, that is to say, during her existence in her mother’s womb, but that she was sanctified from the moment of her existence as an embryo, from the very first moment of her formation - therefore - from the moment of her conception. (1)

A contemporary and opponent of Photius, the monk Theognostes, wrote in a homily for the feast of the Dormition, that Mary was conceived by “a sanctifying action”, ex arches - from the beginning. It seems to me that this ex arches exactly corresponds to the “in primo instanti” of Roman theology. (2)

St Euthymes, patriarch of Constantinople (+917), in the course of a homily on the conception of St Anne (that is to say, on Mary’s conception by Anne and Joachim) said that it was on this very day (touto semerou) that the Father fashioned a tabernacle (Mary) for his Son, and that this tabernacle was “fully sanctified” (kathagiazei). There again we find the idea of Mary’s sanctification in primo instanti conceptionis. (3)

Let us now turn to more explicit evidence.

(St) Gregory Palamas, archbishop of Thessalonica and doctor of the hesychasm (+1360) in his 65 published Mariological homilies, developed an entirely original theory about her sanctification. On the one hand, Palamas does not use the formula “immaculate conception” because he believes that Mary was sanctified long before the “primus instans conceptionis”, and on the other, he states quite as categorically as any Roman theologian that Mary was never at any moment sullied by the stain of original sin. Palamas’ solution to the problem, of which as far as we know, he has been the sole supporter, is that God progressively purified all Mary’s ancestors, one after the other and each to a greater degree than his predecessor so that at the end, eis telos, Mary was able to grow, from a completely purified root, like aspotless stem “on the limits between created and uncreated”. (4)

The Emperor Manuel II Paleologus (+1425) also pronounced a homily on the Dormition. In it, he affirms in precise terms Mary’s sanctification in primo instanti. He says that Mary was full of grace “from the moment of her conception” and that as soon as she began to exist … there was no time when Jesus was not united to her". We must note that Manuel was no mere amateur in theology. He had written at great length on the procession of the Holy Spirit and had taken part in doctrinal debates during his journeys in the West. One can, therefore, consider him as a qualified representative of the Byzantine theology of his time. (5)

George Scholarios (+1456), the last Patriarch of the Byzantine Empire, has also left us a homily on the Dormition and an explicit affirmation of the Immaculate Conception. He says that Mary was “all pure from the first moment of her existence” (gegne theion euthus). (6)

It is rather strange that the most precise Greek affirmation of the
Immaculate Conception should come from the most anti-Latin, the most “Protestantizing” of the patriarchs of Constantinople, Cyril Lukaris (+1638). He too gave a sermon on the Dormition of Our Lady. He said that Mary “was wholly sanctified from the very first moment of her conception (ole egiasmene en aute te sullepsei) when her body was formed and when her soul was united to her body”; and further on he writes: “As for the Panaghia, who is there who does not know that she is pure and immaculate, that she was a spotless instrument, sanctified in her conception and her birth, as befits one who is to contain the One whom nothing can contain?” (7)

Gerasimo. patriarch of Alexandria (+1636) taught at the same time. according to the Chronicle of the Greek, Hypsilantis, that the Theotokos “was not subject to the sin of our first father” (ouk npekeito to propatopiko hamarte mati); and a manual of dogmatic theology of the same century, written by Nicholas Coursoulas (+1652) declared that “the soul of the Holy Virgin was made exempt from the stain of original sin from the first moment of its creation by God and union with the body.” (8)

I am not unaware that other voices were raised against the Immaculate Conception. Damascene the Studite, in the sixteenth century, Mitrophanes Cristopoulos, patriarch of Alexandria and Dosithes, patriarch of Jerusalem in the seventeenth century, all taught that Mary was sanctified only in her mother’s womb. Nicephorus Gallistus in the fourteenth century and the Hagiorite in the eighteenth century taught that Mary was purified from original sin on the day of the Annunciation. But the opinions that we have heard in favour of the Immaculate Conception are not less eminent or less well qualified.
 
cont’d.

It was after the Bull of Pius IX, Ineffabilis Deus, of 8 December,
1854, that the greater part of the Greek Church seems to have turned against belief in the Immaculate Conception. Yet, in 1855, the Athenian professor, Christopher Damalas, was able to declare:

“We have always held and always taught this doctrine. This point is too sacred to give rise to quarrels and it has no need of a deputation from Rome”. (9)

But it was not until 1896 that we find an official text classing the Immaculate Conception among the differences between Rome and the Orthodox East. This text is the synodal letter written by the Oecumenical Patriarch, Anthimes VII, in reply to the encyclical Piaeclara Gratulationis addressed by Leo XIII to the people of the Eastern Churches. Moreover, from the Orthodox point of view, the Constantinopolitan document has only a very limited doctrinal importance. Although it should be read with respect and attention, yet it possesses none of the marks of infallibility, nor does ecclesiastical discipline impose belief in its teachings as a matter of conscience. and it leaves the ground quite clear for theological and historical discussions on this point.

IV. Let us now consider more closely the attitude of the Russian
Church towards the question of the Immaculate Conception.

Every Russian theological student knows that St Dmitri, metropolitan of Rostov (17th century), supported the Latin “theory of the epiklesis” (10); but young Russians are inclined to consider the case of Dmitri as a regrettable exception, an anomoly. If they knew the history of Russian theology a little better they would know that from the middle ages to the seventeenth century the Russian Church has, as a whole, accepted belief in the Immaculate Conception (11).

The Academy of Kiev, with Peter Moghila, Stephen Gavorsky and many others, taught the Immaculate Conception in terms of Latin theology. A confraternity of the Immaculate Conception was established at Polotsk in 1651. The Orthodox members of the confraternity promised to honour the Immaculate Conception of Mary all the days of their life. The Council of Moscow of 1666 approved Simeon Polotsky’s book called The Rod of Direction, in which he said: “Mary was exempt from original sin from the moment of her conception”. (12)

All this cannot be explained as the work of Polish Latinising
influence. We have seen that much was written on the same lines in the Greek East. When as a result of other Greek influences, attacks were launched in Moscow against the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception, a protest was made by the Old Believers - a sect separated from the official Church by reason of its faithfulness to certain ancient rites. Again in 1841, the Old Believers said in an official declaration that “Mary has had no share in original sin”. (13) To all those who know how deeply the Old Believers are attached to the most ancient beliefs and traditions, their testimony has a very special significance. In 1848, the “Dogmatic Theology” of the Archimandrite Antony Amphitheatroff, approved by the Holy Synod as a manual for
seminaries, reproduced Palamas’ curious theory of the progressive purification of the Virgin’s ancestors, a theory which has already been mentioned and which proclaims Mary’s exemption from original sin. Finally, we should notice that the Roman definition of 1854 was not attacked by the most representative theologians of the time, Metropolitan Philaretes of Moscow and Macarius Boulgakov.

It was in 1881 that the first important writing appeared in Russian
literature in opposition to the dogma of the Immaculate Conception. It was written by Professor A. Lebedev of Moscow who held the view that the Virgin was completely purified from original sin at Golgotha. (14) In 1884, the Holy Synod included the question of the Immaculate Conception in the programme of “polemical”, that is to say, anti-Latin theology. Ever since then, official Russian theology has been unanimously opposed to the Immaculate Conception.

This attitude of the Russians has been strengthened by a frequent
confusion of Mary’s immaculate conception with the virgin birth of
Christ. This confusion is to be found not only among ignorant people, but also among many theologians and bishops. In 1898, Bishop Augustine, author of a “Fundamental Theology”, translated “immaculate conception” by “conception sine semine”. More recently still, Metropolitan Anthony then Archbishop of Volkynia, wrote against the “impious heresy of the immaculate and virginal conception of the Most Holy Mother of God by Joachim and Anne.” It was a theologian of the Old Believers, A. Morozov, who had to point out to the archbishop that he did not know what he was talking about. (15)

Footnotes:
  1. Photius, homil. I in Annunt., in the collection of St. Aristarchis,
    Photiou logoi kai homiliai, Constantinople 1901, t. II, p. 236.
  2. Theognostes, hom. in fest. Dormitionis, Greek Cod. 763 of the
    Bibliotheque Nationale of Paris, fol. 8. v.
  3. Euthemius, hom. in concept. S. Annae, Cod. laudianus 69 of the Bodleian Library, fol. 122-126.
  4. Photius, In Praesentat. Deiparae, in the collection of Sophoclis
    Grigoriou tou Palama homiliai kb’, Athens 1861.
  5. Manuel Paleologus, orat. in Dormit., Vatic. graecus 1619. A Latin translation is to be found in Migne P.G. t. CLVI, 91-108.
  6. Scholarios, hom. in Dormit., Greek Cod. 1294 of the Bibliotheque Nationale of Paris, fol. 139 v.
  7. Lukaris, hom. in Dormit., Cod. 263 of the Metochion of the Holy
    Sepulchre in Constantinople, fol. 612-613, and hom. in Nativ., Cod. 39 of the Metochion, fol. 93.
  8. Hypsilantis, Ta meta ten alosin, Constantinople, 1870, p. 131.
    Coursoulas, Sunopsis ten ieras Theologias, Zante, 1862, vol. I, pp.336-342.
  9. Quoted by Frederic George Lee, in The sinless conception of theMother of God, London 1891, p. 58.
  10. See Chiliapkin, St Dmitri of Rostov and his times (Russian), in
    the Zapiski of the Faculty of history and philology of the University
    of St. Petersberg, t. XXIV, 1891, especially pp. 190-193.
  11. See J. Gagarin, L’Eglise russe et L’immaculee conception, Paris 1876.
  12. See Makary Bulgakov, History of the Russian Church (Russian) 1890, t. XII, p. 681. On the Polotsk brotherhood, see the article by Golubiev, in the Trudv of the Academy of Kiev, November 1904, pp.164-167.
  13. See N. Subbotin, History of the hierarchy of Bielo-Krinitza
    (Russian), Moscow, 1874, t. I, p. xlii of the Preface.
  14. An article by M. Jugie, Le dogme de l’immaculee conception d’apres un theologien russe, in Echos d’Orient, 1920, t. XX, p. 22, gives an analysis of Lebedev’s monography.
  15. Letter of Archbishop Anthony of Volhynia to the Old Believers, in the organ of the Russian Holy Synod, The Ecclesiastical News of 10 March 1912, p. 399. Morozov’s reply is contained in the same periodical on 14 July 1912, pp. 1142-1150.
 
I challenge any Catholic to name one doctrine or dogma the Orthodox Church has begun to teach since the schism that wasn’t taught before.

Yours in Christ
Joe
Eucharistic Ecclesiology.

Hello my brother Joedavis28. 😃 Your lupine Knight stands at the ready.
 
Doctrines that are novel in the Eastern ORTHODOX Churches:

-Denial that the Son has ANY role in the Procession
-Denial of the Toll-house doctrine (which according to Father Rose is a matter of doctrinal Faith to be believed by all)
-Denial of the doctrine of Atonement
-Denial of the necessity of the head bishop, or even the existence of the head bishop.
-Utilization of the doctrine of Essence/Energies to make a heterodox distinction WITHIN the Godhead
-Nationalism in ecclesiology.
-Denial that St. Peter is the Rock, or falsely dichotomizing Jesus and Peter’s confession from Peter himself.
-Demeaning the use of holy images in Latin Christendom (i.e., the use of statues or realism in art)
-Denying that Christ is fully present EITHER in the transformed bread OR wine.
-granting permission for divorce and remarriage in circumstances unheard of in the early Fathers
-the idea that artificial contraception is not a sin.

These are just some that I could think of off-hand. I’m sure these points can be denied or rationalized, but that doesn’t affect the fact that they exist in some form or other within Eastern Orthodoxy. It’s really a matter of perspective - Catholics will claim the dogma of the IC and papal infallibility are fully patristic, just as I’m sure Eastern Orthodox can rationalize away some or all of the points I made above.

Not all of these are points that I agree to myself. But I have heard or read them somewhere from non-Orthodox polemicists.

Blessings,
Marduk
DITTO!!!
 
Doctrines that are novel in the Eastern ORTHODOX Churches:

-Denial that the Son has ANY role in the Procession
-Denial of the Toll-house doctrine (which according to Father Rose is a matter of doctrinal Faith to be believed by all)
-Denial of the doctrine of Atonement
-Denial of the necessity of the head bishop, or even the existence of the head bishop.
-Utilization of the doctrine of Essence/Energies to make a heterodox distinction WITHIN the Godhead
-Nationalism in ecclesiology.
-Denial that St. Peter is the Rock, or falsely dichotomizing Jesus and Peter’s confession from Peter himself.
-Demeaning the use of holy images in Latin Christendom (i.e., the use of statues or realism in art)
-Denying that Christ is fully present EITHER in the transformed bread OR wine.
-granting permission for divorce and remarriage in circumstances unheard of in the early Fathers
-the idea that artificial contraception is not a sin.

These are just some that I could think of off-hand. I’m sure these points can be denied or rationalized, but that doesn’t affect the fact that they exist in some form or other within Eastern Orthodoxy. It’s really a matter of perspective - Catholics will claim the dogma of the IC and papal infallibility are fully patristic, just as I’m sure Eastern Orthodox can rationalize away some or all of the points I made above.

Not all of these are points that I agree to myself. But I have heard or read them somewhere from non-Orthodox polemicists.

Blessings,
Marduk
AMEN!!! AMEN!!! AMEN!!!
 
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