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Is the Eastern Code of Canon Law authentically Eastern? Does it apply to Eastern Catholics?
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lssanjose
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Something like that did happen to me, but only in getting an unction. This was at the first time I ever had gone to an Orthodox parish. An elderly lady ādragged me.āWhy shouldnāt we be more close to our Orthodox āparentā Churches? That is where our Churches came from. You can say that communion is like marriage, the RC Church is our wife but the Orthodox Church is our parent. We may live with the RC Church today but we are who we are because of the Orthodox Church.
Just go to the Orthodox pairsh. The Orthodox are not known for proselytizing (though there are some for sure) and if you donāt want to hear what they have to say, donāt ask a question. Nobody has been mean to me when I visit when I tell them I am Eastern Catholic. Just donāt try to receive Communion, you might be dragged out by your ankles
. Iām lucky to have this parish, as theyāre as friendly as they can be. And, they donāt drag polemics into it. Weāll discuss topics dividing us (just dialogue with my friend). But, heās told me, he and the parish priest, are into the two lung idea. Itās just there are still outstanding items of division.Letās just say, the current pope; and the previous were highly thought of, within those parish walls (at least what I was told by my friend, who said the parish did something out of respect for BPJPII, when he reposed.
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ConstantineTG
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I would think Blessed Pope John Paul II would be revered by more Orthodox as he is very in touch with his Eastern roots. Pope Benedict is a bit of a tradSomething like that did happen to me, but only in getting an unction. This was at the first time I ever had gone to an Orthodox parish. An elderly lady ādragged me.ā
Letās just say, the current pope; and the previous were highly thought of, within those parish walls (at least what I was told by my friend, who said the parish did something out of respect for BPJPII, when he reposed.
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ByzCathCantor
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He looked pretty natural in front of this iconostasis, sporting his Eastern-styled (broad cloth) pallium ā¦Pope Benedict is a bit of a trad
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ConstantineTG
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Well, he missed his chance of celebating an Eastern Liturgy at this event. I know there are a number of Rites represented, but still. Youāre the Pope, pick one Eastern and do it!
Or better yet, there were three days, have 3 different Liturgies.
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mardukm
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Dear brother Malphono,
Blessings,
Marduk
I cannot trace the article in which I read about the appeals to the Pope by the Latinizers in India (this was over a year ago), but itās probably the syro-malabars. Still, I donāt know why you seem to want to blame Rome (whether the Pope or the Curia) for how effectively the Indian bishops have adhered to the apostolic exhortation to de-Latinize.
The primary missionary focus of the Latin Catholic missionaries since the time of St. Francis was always the indigenous non-Christian peoples. Egypt was simply the most convenient point of origin from which to launch missionary activity in that part of the world and so they established missionary centers there. When the Propaganda was instituted, one of its intentions was to bring about unity with the Orthodox, but it never lost sight of its primary focus of evangelizing non-Christians first . Efforst at Unity with the Orthodox was not done through proselytizing the laity as Protestants do, but through dialogue with the highest authorities. The common practice was for Catholic missionaries (whether from the Propaganda Fide or from particular religious orders) to request audience with the Coptic Orthodox hierarchs upon arrival and at times be sheltered temporarily in Coptic Orthodox monasteries until they could set up their own mission centers. There was even a period of about 100 years when intercommunion was a reality between the COC and Catholic missionaries. Conversions inevitably occured (self-motivated, or via active proselytizing by individual missionaries) and when they did, accusations of āproselytizingā from the Coptic Orthodox were natural. Thereās a difference between Protestant proselytism, and Catholic-Orthodox dialogue. In any case, for the purposes of this thread, the papal response to requests to Latinize was always to preserve the local traditions.
Ever heard of the Jesuits? St. Francis de Sales?
āHead bishopā means just that, and the responsibilites are the same, whether it is a metropolitan, patriarch, catholicos, major-archbishop, or the Pope.
So what if the Pope established it? The Curial Congregations are autonomous bodies, and there are individual Cardinals there who display pretensions to power. Iām sure you are aware of that, and the fact that the actions or decisions of these individual Cardinals are often done without direct papal approval. As far as what went on in the past, you should be aware that many latinizing missionary activites were carried out by secular Catholic governments, INDEPENDENT of any papal control. You should read about the tensions and conflicts between the Propaganda Fide and these secular governments. So your perception that Rome is to be blamed for everything is rather ahistorical.The perception is borne out of experience. One has to merely look and listen. How does it **not **represent a āforeign power?ā And it is not simply the Curia. The Curia exists and functions ad nutum papam, does it not? So, to play on something Harry Truman said, where does the buck stop? Three guesses. Eliminate the first two.
Yes, we wonāt agree on the utility of a Curia. I donāt know about the Eastern Orthodox, but all the Oriental Orthodox Patriarchs have their own curias. Curias are very helpful for the head bishopās administration of Church affairs. What I propose is a Roman Curia similar in purpose and scope as the Oriental Orthodox praxis, but you donāt want a Curia at all.Itās becoming clearer and clearer to me that weāll never come to agreement on this.
I can see where you are coming from. Nevertheless, itās in the hands of our bishops - as it should be. Look to your own bishops to blame, not the Pope. Itās not the Popeās job to micromanage the affairs of any local diocese if its bishop is present. If you have a problem with the bishop, take it up with his metropolitan, or the Synod. I donāt see any justification for immediatly laying responsibility nor blame on the bishop of Rome for the perceived ills of any Church.
The Pontifical Oriental Institute is for the study of Eastern/Oriental matters, not Latin. Iām not inclined to impose some sort of insidious agenda on its faculty. Sorry to say it, but your pov really sounds like nothing more than unfounded conspiracy theory.
Blessings,
Marduk
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ByzCathCantor
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I too was a little disappointed about this, but considering the diversity, it may have been hard to chose one over the others. A compromise could have been a Maronite Qorbono, favoring the clear majority, with prayer services according to the other represented ECCs on the first two days of the visit.Well, he missed his chance of celebating an Eastern Liturgy at this event. I know there are a number of Rites represented, but still. Youāre the Pope, pick one Eastern and do it!
Yet it was decided to celebrate the OF Mass, with chant from each of the four ECCs present in Lebanon featured during the Mass. I have yet to view the Mass, so canāt comment on specifics, but can imagine how this might have been done.
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mardukm
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This is very relevant to this thread and cannot be understated:
Can. 27 Custom is the best interpreter of laws.
Regardless of the debates about the origins of our CCEO, regardless of the āRomanā style of the Code, regardless of conspiracy theories of the motives of canon lawyers, it is still a fact that Canon law needs interpretation, and that it is the customs of the Eastern and Oriental Churches that is the best interpreter of the CCEO, not Latin custom.
Blessings,
Marduk
Can. 27 Custom is the best interpreter of laws.
Regardless of the debates about the origins of our CCEO, regardless of the āRomanā style of the Code, regardless of conspiracy theories of the motives of canon lawyers, it is still a fact that Canon law needs interpretation, and that it is the customs of the Eastern and Oriental Churches that is the best interpreter of the CCEO, not Latin custom.
Blessings,
Marduk
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5Loaves
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HH Benedict XVI is much respected by the Orthodox I know because he has such a strong vision of liturgy, faithful to Holy tradition. I posted this a couple of years ago, reporting on the 2010 Pan-Orthodox Society for the Advancement of Liturgical Music, PSALM, west coast Seminar:I would think Blessed Pope John Paul II would be revered by more Orthodox as he is very in touch with his Eastern roots. Pope Benedict is a bit of a trad
Fr Stephan is the priest at the OCA parish where I go for various services. Right after this lecture we met up at the coffee urn and I commented on not having read the book. His reply to me was āWhat kind of Papist are you?ā I thought to myself, āYeah, good question.ā At that point I had read a lot of Benedictās encyclicals etc., but I actually had never read any of his books. Fr. Stephanās comment turned that around. Another instance of him being a great influence on me.Lecture 1 What is āLiturgical Singingā with Fr Stephan Meholick, always a wonderful teacher. At the end he said heād gotten a lot of material from some one else. Could any one guess who? His Holiness Benedict XVI Pope of Rome.
(They sell HH Benedict XVIās books in his parish book store.)
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Vico
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Just for fun, try to understand this. Note that 1508 is buried in there:
CCEO
Canon 1501
Unless it is penal matter, if an express prescription of universal or particular law or a custom is lacking in some particular matter, the case is to be decided in light of the canons of the synods and the holy fathers, legitimate custom, the general principles of canon law observed with canonical equity, ecclesiastical jurisprudence, and the common and constant canonical doctrine.
Canon 1502
- A later law abrogates a former law or derogates from it if it expressly states so, if it is directly contrary to it, or if it entirely re-orders the subject matter of the former law.
- A prescription of the common law, unless the law expressly provides otherwise, does not derogate from a particular law nor does a norm of particular law enacted for a Church sui iuris derogate from a more particular norm in force in that same Church.
In a case of doubt the revocation of a pre-existent law is not presumed, but later laws are to be related to earlier ones and, insofar as it is possible, harmonized with them.
Canon 1504
Civil laws to which the law of the Church defers should be observed in canon law with the same effects, insofar as they are not contrary to divine law and unless it is provided otherwise in canon law.
Canon 1505
The use of the masculine gender affects also the feminine unless the law provides otherwise or it is clear from the nature of the matter.
Canon 1506
- The custom of the Christian community, insofar as it responds to the action of the Holy Spirit in the ecclesial body, can have the force of law.
- No custom can in any way derogate divine law.
- Only that custom can have the force of law which is reasonable and introduced by a community capable at least of receiving law, and has been the continuous and uncontested practice for the prescribed time determined by law.
- A custom which is expressly reprobated in law is not a reasonable one.
- A custom contrary to the current canon law or one which is apart (praeter legem) from canon law, obtains the force of law only when it has been legitimately observed for thirty continuous and complete years; only a centenary or immemorial custom can prevail over a canon which contains a clause forbidding future customs.
- Even before that time, a competent legislator can approve a custom as legitimate by his consent, even tacitly.
Custom is the best interpreter of law.
Canon 1509
A custom, whether it is contrary to or apart (praeter legem) from the law, is revoked by a contrary custom or law; however, unless it makes express mention of centenary or immemorial customs, a law does not revoke them; as for the other customs, can. 1502, 2 is applicable.
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mardukm
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How embarrassing! I had the CCEO and CIC side-be-side and accidentally copied and pasted the CIC Canon number instead of the CCEO number.
Sorry!
Sorry!
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mardukm
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Sorry, brother Malphono. I meant āOriental Congregationā instead of āCuriaā in this portion of my post. I see each Congregation as a mini-Curia, which is why I probably inadvertantly used āCuria.ā
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5Loaves
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There are so many wonderful photos! Here are some others from Vatican News Facebook. Also, Joan Lewis has many photos in her āJoanās Romeā blog coverage. In the 4th little video she has up there it sounds like HH addressing the youth in French.
Such an important trip. 
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malphono
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Not that I necessarily agree with the rest, but for the purpose of economy Iām only going to respond to a few points.
It seems to me that āautonomousā isnāt synonymous with āindependentā and so weāre back to Harry Truman and āwhere does the buck stop?ā arenāt we?
Perhaps a civil analogy might help. Letās say a cabinet secretary (and the ācabinetā is, for practical purposes, quite the same as a curia, and itās secretaries also serve ad nutum) issued a directive contrary to the Administrationās stated policy on a matter. Would that directive stand? Would the secretary not be disciplined?
Itās not a matter of laying immediate blame on the Bishop(s) of Rome.
The issue is manifold. For one thing, if, as youāve inferred, the stated goal is to āpreserveā and the trend by a Synod (and/or bishops within it) is otherwise, then is it not Romeās duty to correct the matter?
For another thing, how did this āmore Catholic than the Popeā mindset prevalent among so many Eastern & Oriental bishops arise? Was it not because of Latin influence (or, in some cases, at least, perhaps āpressureā would be more accurate)? Itās all developed into a āmonkey see, monkey doā attitude on the part of those bishops, and Rome (cf: the āJanus Principleā I referenced earlier) seems to be quite content with that. Unfounded? :dts: But again, itās clear that weāre never going to agree on this, so thatās as much as I will say at present.
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Seamus_L
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If it doesnāt apply to Eastern Catholics, then who does it apply to ? Think itās going to be interesting when the UGCC catechism is fully translated into English.
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ConstantineTG
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A catechism is a catechism, it doesnāt deal with the political wranglings of a Church.
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Seamus_L
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So, you can take it or leave it ?
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ConstantineTG
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Which came from which? Faith from canons, or canons from faith?
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