Is the Golden Rule a Foundational Moral Principle or A Rule of Thumb?

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Not an Atheist but I think we can agree about moral positions. I wouldn’t call them absolute. Absolute implies that they are fixed. I can’t make that leap.
I know you can’t make that leap. I’m not sure what the implications are for you to make that leap, but you are certainly obdurate in making it.

I feel as if you have come to this:
All female mammals can make milk. Roscoe: I agree!
Cows make milk. Roscoe: I agree!

*Therefore, cows are mammals. *Roscoe: I can’t make that leap. I will simply say that cows are animals that make milk.
 
If you have an argument that begins to sow doubts in my mind, then you’ll be the first one to know about it.
Not to question your sincerity, but I respectfully say that I am a little doubtful about this.

You have implied in some PMs to me that there are some questions that have been raised on the CAFs that you are wrestling with.

But you have never given any indication on the CAFs that this is the case.

Am I wrong to question your profession above? If so, I will retract readily.
 
I am a math major who is deferring to my professor in this particular problem. I haven’t yet wrapped my mind around the answer, but know that I will get there eventually.
I don’t think that maths is a good analogy because there is generally only one single correct answer. So using that you are already presupposing a single correct answer to your moral dilemma.

I look upon it more as being an English major and my professor is trying to convince me that Ulysses is a classic of modern literature. I defer to his greater understanding of the written word and I read it. I give it my best shot. I find it turgid. Incomprehensible. Dense. I realise that whatever he feels about it, it’s not applicable to me.

He’s not wrong. But he’s not right as far as I’m concerned. Same with a lot of things like contraception, sex outside marriage etc.
 
I don’t think that maths is a good analogy because there is generally only one single correct answer. So using that you are already presupposing a single correct answer to your moral dilemma.
Why do you assume that there isn’t a correct answer to my moral dilemma? :confused:
 
You have implied in some PMs to me that there are some questions that have been raised on the CAFs that you are wrestling with.

But you have never given any indication on the CAFs that this is the case.
This from Post 121
However…taking very careful aim at my own foot…I have two problems nagging at me.

The first is that there are some things I can envisage which no-one in their right mind would consider morally acceptable. That would imply that there is either an objective morality of a morality which we could describe as ‘common to all’. Is that the same thing said differently? Is it just a matter of how we define it?

And the second is my belief, and I would suggest that it is backed by evidence, that the world is becoming a more moral place. Yes, there are conflicts and murders and rapes and any number of immoral acts, but overall we are all becoming more ‘civilised’. There seems to be a greater awareness of what constitutes a moral life. So we’re heading in a particular direction. So where is that direction taking us? Ever towards that ‘objective morality’? Or are we just agreeing more and more what is ‘common to all’.
Why do you assume that there isn’t a correct answer to my moral dilemma? :confused:
There probably is. For you.
 
This from Post 121
I am sorry. I do not understand the relevance in the post you referenced.

Are you saying that because of your time here on the CAFs you realize the world is now becoming a more moral place?
 
I am sorry. I do not understand the relevance in the post you referenced.
You asked if I admitted to having doubts. And I said in that post: ‘I have two problems nagging at me…’ and went on to express them.
Why not for everyone?
Why not a correct answer for everyone? Well, there is. It’s just not the same one.
 
You asked if I admitted to having doubts. And I said in that post: ‘I have two problems nagging at me…’ and went on to express them.

Why not a correct answer for everyone? Well, there is. It’s just not the same one.
Then it would seem that you would claim there could be no such thing as reality. Since everyone gets to decides what is true, nothing can really be true.

If there is not one correct answer for everyone, why do criminal laws and the various legal systems to enforce them exist?
 
Then it would seem that you would claim there could be no such thing as reality. Since everyone gets to decides what is true, nothing can really be true.
That’s a silly comment. If someone says that the circumference of a circle is PI x Diameter, you don’t get to decide if it’s true or not. You don’t get to decide the chemical composition of water or the speed of light or the force of gravity. Reality comprises the hard facts of life.

But if I say it’s true that it’s perfectly OK to have sex when you’re not married or that it’s true that gay marriage is not immoral or that wearing a contraceptive is fine or that stealing food if my family is hungry is perfectly acceptable or that torturing someone to save a city is acceptable, then you can disagree with me all you like. But it won’t change reality.
If there is not one correct answer for everyone, why do criminal laws and the various legal systems to enforce them exist?
You may be confusing justice with law and both of them with morality.
 
I know you can’t make that leap. I’m not sure what the implications are for you to make that leap, but you are certainly obdurate in making it.

I feel as if you have come to this:
All female mammals can make milk. Roscoe: I agree!
Cows make milk. Roscoe: I agree!

*Therefore, cows are mammals. *Roscoe: I can’t make that leap. I will simply say that cows are animals that make milk.
It’s not as cut and dry with morality. We can see morality develop and change throughout human history. I’m not willing to concede that we are at the epitome of the answers of morality. We judge through our eyes. I can look at slavery in the bible, I find it contemptible, yet it was considered if not moral at least acceptable. There are no verses condemning it. I can only assume we’ve progressed. I think we will continue to progress.

I don’t know what’s in store for the human race that may change the equation, technological advances, environmental changes, population, space exploration etc.
 
It’s not as cut and dry with morality. We can see morality develop and change throughout human history. I’m not willing to concede that we are at the epitome of the answers of morality. We judge through our eyes. I can look at slavery in the bible, I find it contemptible, yet it was considered if not moral at least acceptable. There are no verses condemning it. I can only assume we’ve progressed. I think we will continue to progress.
This issue has been brought up before. By what I would call the definitive moral standard for whether morality has improved - the value of human life itself - the last century was the worst in human history in terms of numbers of lives taken by government action (genocide or war per 100k population) by a large factor. I think it was something like 8 times worse than any other century in human history. The data came from a professor at the University of Hawaii. I can find the data again, but I did have it as an attachment to a post a few months back.

That is to say nothing of another factor which also entails disregard for the value of human life - abortion - that would make the data far more incriminating.

So, no, I would not agree that morality has improved.
 
The information was posted here:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=9895989&postcount=199

The number of deaths as a result of war and genocide in the 20th century was 4.437 per 100 (as a percentage of the population)
The average prior to the 20th century (from 5th century BC to the 19th AD) was .293 per 100, so the 20th century was approximately 13 times the average of previous centuries beginning at 500 BC.

The second worse was the 19th with a percentage of 1.619, so the 20th century had three times the number of victims per 100 population.

By that measure, a conclusion that we are becoming more moral is difficult to swallow.
 
The information was posted here:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=9895989&postcount=199

The number of deaths as a result of war and genocide in the 20th century was 4.437 per 100 (as a percentage of the population)
The average prior to the 20th century (from 5th century BC to the 19th AD) was .293 per 100, so the 20th century was approximately 13 times the average of previous centuries beginning at 500 BC.

The second worse was the 19th with a percentage of 1.619, so the 20th century had three times the number of victims per 100 population.

By that measure, a conclusion that we are becoming more moral is difficult to swallow.
I see that as technology driven. e.x. Airplanes, Nuclear weapons, automatic weapons, automobiles.
 
You asked if I admitted to having doubts. And I said in that post: ‘I have two problems nagging at me…’ and went on to express them.
Well, the context was having doubts due to discussions here on the CAFs, and I didn’t see that in your post.

But I retract my doubts and proclaim that you will, indeed, acknowledge here when a point has been made that makes you go, “Hmmm…”
 
It’s not as cut and dry with morality.
Of course. That’s why we have moral theology. And why we have a forum dedicated to moral questions.
We can see morality develop and change throughout human history
Not really. Morality has been the same since logic and reason have been around.

Thus, while some societies have said, “It’s okay for a man to have lots of wives” it’s NEVER been okay for any society to say, “It’s okay for a man to take someone else’s wife.”
 
Of course. That’s why we have moral theology. And why we have a forum dedicated to moral questions.

Not really. Morality has been the same since logic and reason have been around.

Thus, while some societies have said, “It’s okay for a man to have lots of wives” it’s NEVER been okay for any society to say, “It’s okay for a man to take someone else’s wife.”
People may use logic but they come up with different answers. The Inuit had interesting marriage customs. They were moral by their standards.

straightdope.com/columns/read/2066/do-eskimo-men-lend-their-wives-to-strangers
 
Moving back to my contention in the opening post that the Golden rule is more like the “form” that morality takes, it would seem necessary to begin to specify the content.

While I do agree that the content required by moral thinking would need to be objective, I don’t think mere objectivity (defined as accepted by some, most or all moral agents) is sufficient to make something obligatory.

That is why I am suggesting that the place to begin moral discussion is to presuppose that what “moral” means is “obligatory for all moral agents” and then move from there to determine which principles are to be viewed as absolutely obligatory and objectively so.

All right thinking moral agents would agree that, objectively speaking, such principles are obligatory, even though immoral agents would disagree. The point being that the determinations of immoral beings should not count against such principles because immoral beings would be, by definition, incapable of rendering moral judgements.

We would not appeal to pedophiles to determine whether pedophilia is morally wrong precisely because someone who engages in pedophilia could not render an unbiased judgement on the issue. (Recall neutrality as a stipulation.)

That also means that even though universal agreement is lacking as to whether pedophilia is wrong - pedophiles might disagree - that is not sufficient to nullify the moral determination.

Again, that is the move by moral relativists to discount moral determinations. They claim the existence of individuals or cultures that practice certain acts are sufficient to discredit these acts as morally obligatory. I would disagree. The existence of individuals or cultures that practice immoral acts simply means immoral or morally defective individuals and cultures do, in fact, exist.

That said, I am proposing the following principle as an absolutely binding principle on all human moral agents:

When the choice is between directly ending the life of a human being and the convenience of another human being, the value of life ought always supercede the value of convenience.

Convenience is defined as any aspect of existence or any choice which requires less resources than an alternative. In other words, a convenience is anything which makes life easier for the moral agent. Convenience should never be the option that overwhelms or directly takes the life of a human being, simple convenience or taking the option of saving of resources should never “weigh” more than, or result in, the direct taking of a persons’ life.

In a previous post, responding to Roscoe Turner, regarding the means by which moral rules can be “empirically” determined (the instrument by which they are to be measured,) I replied that the most appropriate instrument for making moral determinations is a fully functioning human moral agent. There is no better instrument. Human beings (at least those which are functioning well, morally speaking) are the most capable instruments for determining what “moral entails,” so the burden falls on us as moral agents to make "empirical’ moral determinations.

Again, that all humans do not agree simply means some are defective as instruments for moral detection. They are, plainly put, “immoral” or defective moral agents.

With that stated, I am proposing the bold faced rule above as a kind of “calibration” test to determine whether the agent is indeed capable of making accurate moral determinations. Given that human moral agents are indeed moral agents, then the value of a human life should take precedence, as the calibration test implies, over any other determinations. A moral agent who cannot subscribe to that “calibration test” simply does not qualify as a “moral agent.”

Notice there is no reference to God to alienate or eliminate atheists a priori. Atheists should not be disqualified simply because they don’t subscribe to a belief in God. However, I would claim, they must pass the calibration exercise.

I am open to a better “calibration” principle, but I do think the rest of my contention holds. That human moral agents are the best means of determining human moral determinations and that some objective filter is required to rule out those incapable of exhibiting sound moral thinking. To argue against these is simply to “fall back” on relativism as a default, though, untenable and indefensible, moral position.
 
People may use logic but they come up with different answers. The Inuit had interesting marriage customs. They were moral by their standards.

straightdope.com/columns/read/2066/do-eskimo-men-lend-their-wives-to-strangers
This is beside the point. There is still a question of whether the Inuit marriage customs can be considered morally licit. Just the fact that a group practices such customs does not, by default, make these customs “moral” as you seem to imply. Their “standards” may have been defective and, hence, would be immoral, standards. That is still an open question.

To assume that standards become moral simply because an entire cultural group practices them is not a position that is defensible. Human sacrifice was practiced by the Aztecs and other cultural groups. Are you prepared to allow human sacrifice as morally legitimate? I am not.

This rule does NOT pass sound moral deliberation:

If practiced by cultural group, then (by default) morally acceptable.
 
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