Is the Golden Rule a Foundational Moral Principle or A Rule of Thumb?

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Aka “this is inconvenient must be metaphorical”. :rolleyes:
Not exactly, because even statements in the Bible that are not “inconvenient” may be metaphorical, such as in Psalms and Proverbs. One would have to familiarize oneself with the style and context of the passage and the book in question and whether it is didactic, poetic, figurative, narrative, and so on. There may even be BOTH a literal and figurative meaning, as Torah and Talmud scholars can attest to.
 
Perhaps you have forgotten that you are on a Catholic forum, in dialogue with (mainly) Catholics?

Did you think, mayhap, that you were on a Fundamentalist Christian, Sola Scriptura-advocating forum?
Not at all. I just think it’s a convenient answer. Dismissing the inconvenient. 🙂
 
Still there is no culture which declares, “It is permissible for a man to take another man’s wife.”

That there is “wife-lending” in some cultures is quite different than the above.
Can you expound on the difference?
 
Ah, so you believe that some people may like Child Sacrifice, just like some people like haggis.

Ah, so you do see that there is an Absolute Morality. Some things are wrong for all people, at all times, in all places. 👍

Do you see why I don’t think you have really thought out your position quite logically, Roscoe?
No haggis is much worse.

Because we agree on a moral principle doesn’t mean all morality is absolute.
 
Not exactly, because even statements in the Bible that are not “inconvenient” may be metaphorical, such as in Psalms and Proverbs. One would have to familiarize oneself with the style and context of the passage and the book in question and whether it is didactic, poetic, figurative, narrative, and so on. There may even be BOTH a literal and figurative meaning, as Torah and Talmud scholars can attest to.
It’s not what I was implying. Even if you take it as metaphorically what does it say about the morality of the people telling the tale. It’s not condemned. It’s celebrated as an edict from God.
 
What’s your position again?
Sex outside marriage is fine as long as it"s between consenting adults who have not made a commitment to anyone else.
Are you willing to apply this paradigm to Aztec child sacrifice as well?
There is a huge misunderstanding here that needs to be cleared up.

There are some people who believe that morality is relative. That is, different circumstances can dictate whether something is right or wrong. So the simplistic question: Is killing wrong? requires some clarification. That is, under what circumstances is someone being killed?

In my personal opinion, which I would think would be quite common, I would say that it is entirely moral to kill someone if that is the only way to prevent that person killing your children. The killing occurs within a set of circumstances that I would agree justifies it.

That does NOT equate to me believing that any other set of circumstances necessarily allows for it, however strongly someone else may believe that it does.

And obviously you are entirely at liberty to disagree and say that killing in any circumstance is wrong. That does NOT make you wrong and me right. It’s simply that we disagree on what is morally correct.
As deceptively compelling as the chart is, I don’t find it realistic precisely because it is skewed. It would be like saying, if I killed one man at the time of Genghis Khan that would be the equivalent of killing 17 or 18 men today. Why do I have any reason to think that is even plausibly true?
Then why quote percentages of the population in the chart you showed? It’s just a different way of saying the same thing. It’s comparing the ratio of people killed then to the number of people alive at the time. It’s a simple matter of doing some basic maths using the figures on either chart to have them show percentages or equivalent deaths and the meaning would be exactly the same.
Lastly, his chart says nothing about the sheer numbers of horrific events. Why does he not speak of the frequency of such events in the past century as opposed to historical frequency. The statistics on war and democide does factor frequency by making it a question of deaths per 100 taking into account all events, not just the ones that serve a purpose.
He does total the number of events over centuries. There is no way to represent them here, so all I can do is suggest you get a copy of the book.
I doubt that precisely because the means to bring about the death of massive numbers of humans today are far in excess of any means available in the past.
Indeed. But that wasn’t accounted for. The numbers as a percentage of the population are incredibly high despite the fact that most deaths were by sword or club. If you adjust for the method, they become even worse. Rather than one man pushing a button to drop a few dozen bombs that would kill thousands, it took hundreds of men to kill hundreds of men. The percentage of those involved in killing was always much, much higher.

And incidentally, it only takes a cursory investigation to discover that Rummel (who put your chart together) has missed out not just on a few deaths, but millions. For example, his 13th century figures are in the thousands when it is generally accepted that the 30 years war claimed the lives of millions.

And he himself has admitted to missing out on the massacres in the Congo because he hadn’t read about them. Probably the most dead in one event in the whole of the 19th century. Ah, well, tack another 10 million on and adjust the figures a bit.
So your position is that you won’t agree to any basic principles because those might lead to some conclusion that you find unacceptable?

Regarding the basic axiom: I noticed you failed to give a direct response to why it is defective as a starting point.
The problem with a basic axion is that someone has to decide if it is morally correct or not. As I said earlier, even if everyone agrees with something doesn’t meant to say it’s right. So you end up starting with something that we can all agree on but which leads us on the wrong direction.

Notwithstanding that, even agreeing to a so called basic axiom doesn’t mean that you can extrapolate to any other moral matter.

Let’s go with something really basic. Torturing children for fun is wrong. You and I will agree to that as would any reasonable person. Now, how do get from there to, say, the use of contraception or sex outside marriage. Because we agree on one matter, do we have to the right to decide on others?
 
noun
1.
the eating of human flesh by another human being.
2.
the eating of the flesh of an animal by another animal of its own kind.
3.
the ceremonial eating of human flesh or parts of the human body for magical or religious purposes, as to acquire the power or skill of a person recently killed.
4.
the act of pecking flesh from a live fowl by a member of the same flock.
5.
the removal of parts, equipment, assets, or employees from one product, item, or business in order to use them in another.

How do the soccer players not qualify?
So you are saying there is no moral difference between one human being hunting down another for food and a group of starving humans who, as a last resort for survival, eat the flesh of one of their dead companions?

The fact that one involves the wanton killing of an innocent human being, but the other doesn’t, makes no morally relevant difference? Interesting. :confused:

No wonder you can’t commit to even the most fundamental moral principle. It appears that you are operating under the misapprehension that the removal of parts from one vehicle for use in another (Definition 5) has the same moral repercussions as killing and eating the flesh of another human being BECAUSE the same word is used to describe both instances, so it must BE the same thing?

I had no idea that was how your brain works. 🤷
 
Ah, so you do see that there is an Absolute Morality. Some things are wrong for all people, at all times, in all places. 👍
OK, how about this. I think that it’s wrong to prevent women having access to contraception. I think that it’s wrong for all people, at all times and in all places.

According to you, this is now an Absolute Morality. Except that a lot of people don’t agree. So personally believing that something is true in all circumstances cannot make it an Absolute Morality…

Well, unless you agree with it. Then you can convince yourself it is.
 
And incidentally, it only takes a cursory investigation to discover that Rummel (who put your chart together) has missed out not just on a few deaths, but millions. For example, his 13th century figures are in the thousands when it is generally accepted that the 30 years war claimed the lives of millions.
That might be because the Thirty Years War was in the 1600s (1618-1648), which would be the 17th century figures on the chart. Also note the three zeroes at the top of the columns designating that 000 be added to each figure in the column.

His number was 5.75 million for that interval of wars. See here: hawaii.edu/powerkills/MURDER.HTM

His number on the chart for the 17th century was 6,108,000 total deaths for that century which would include the 5.75 million figure. Where are YOU getting your misinformation? Perhaps we should apply more than a cursory glance at the numbers.
 
OK, how about this. I think that it’s wrong to prevent women having access to contraception. I think that it’s wrong for all people, at all times and in all places.

According to you, this is now an Absolute Morality. Except that a lot of people don’t agree. So personally believing that something is true in all circumstances cannot make it an Absolute Morality…

Well, unless you agree with it. Then you can convince yourself it is.
The Catholic view on contraception is derived by sound reasoning from more basic moral principles. To argue a position that promotes contraception without addressing how contraception is problematic with reference to those principles is being just as cursory as you were regarding Rummel’s stats.

Considering you won’t even commit to the very basic moral principle I am proposing suggests to me that your position on the issue of contraception is pretty superficial and the only reason you bring it up is because it has common assent. Which, as you, yourself, have pointed out that simply because the majority of human beings think something is morally correct does not make it so.
 
The problem with a basic axion is that someone has to decide if it is morally correct or not. As I said earlier, even if everyone agrees with something doesn’t meant to say it’s right. So you end up starting with something that we can all agree on but which leads us on the wrong direction.
I wasn’t asking whether you thought it would get widespread approval. I was asking whether you thought it was a sound moral principle. Can you think of why, as a basic principle it would not apply universally?

Neither am I claiming that it would be right if everyone were to agree with it. What I am claiming is that it is a sound principle and any competent moral agent would agree with it. It ought to be obligatory because it is morally sound. Show that it isn’t.

Your response is merely another dodge. You don’t want to commit to it because you know where it leads you, but you cannot directly make a case against it as a moral principle.

At least be honest about that. You did claim integrity with regard to convincing arguments. Well, here’s your opportunity to show it.
Notwithstanding that, even agreeing to a so called basic axiom doesn’t mean that you can extrapolate to any other moral matter.
That is what moral reasoning is about. The implications from a basic principle can be deductively shown.
 
Perhaps we should apply more than a cursory glance at the numbers.
Granted. My bad. I was looking at the Thirty Years War and The Hundreds Years War and confused the two (and got the century wrong in any case). But the former was obviously not included as he has a bare half million for that year.

But I stand by what I said - you are safer now then ever before.
The Catholic view on contraception is derived by sound reasoning from more basic moral principles.
That’s irrelevant to the point I was making. I just used it to show that stating a belief in a moral principle which you believe is applicable at all times, to all people, in all circumstances, cannot, by that definition (as PR used it) be used to describe an Absolute Morality.

Whether I actually believe that contraception should be made available at all times etc, is equally irrelevant.
Considering you won’t even commit to the very basic moral principle I am proposing suggests to me that your position on the issue of contraception is pretty superficial and the only reason you bring it up is because it has common assent. Which, as you, yourself, have pointed out that simply because the majority of human beings think something is morally correct does not make it so.
I’m ignoring your ‘very basic moral principle’ because it is not a general axiom from which we can derive further aspects of morality. It is specific to abortion, is worded in a way that presupposes an answer and will lead to specific arguments about abortion whereas the question at hand is the Golden Rule in particular and the concept of Absolute Morality.

If you want to talk specifically about the morality of abortion, then there are plenty of threads that deal with it. Let me know which one you post in and I’ll join in the conversation.
 
So you are saying there is no moral difference between one human being hunting down another for food and a group of starving humans who, as a last resort for survival, eat the flesh of one of their dead companions?

The fact that one involves the wanton killing of an innocent human being, but the other doesn’t, makes no morally relevant difference? Interesting. :confused:

No wonder you can’t commit to even the most fundamental moral principle. It appears that you are operating under the misapprehension that the removal of parts from one vehicle for use in another (Definition 5) has the same moral repercussions as killing and eating the flesh of another human being BECAUSE the same word is used to describe both instances, so it must BE the same thing?

I had no idea that was how your brain works. 🤷
I’m challenging your definition of cannibalism.

Eating human flesh is eating human flesh, cannibalism. The circumstances that surround it determines the morality. I am making a distinction between the two acts of cannibalism.
 
I’d love to hear the elevator version of this.
I will spare you the metaphorical.

Whatever judgement morally fallible human beings have to make concerning the action God allegedly commanded be taken against the Canaanites, it certainly cannot be from a perspective of omniscience and absolute moral goodness. We simply do not have access to the kind of evidence that would be necessary to make an informed judgement concerning what would have been the “right” action. The fact that we are 3000+ years removed from the facts makes any opinion we have about the matter devoid of any force.

We might venture an opinion, but if an absolutely perfect and all-knowing God truly did command the Israelites to remove the Canaanites from the Earth, then his judgement would, by definition, have been the right one and ours simply uninformed and largely irrelevant.

The talking points in typical OT critiques are that God would not have commanded such a thing or that God is a moral monster for allowing it. However, logically speaking, it is possible that evil could have become so ingrained and so problematic that the only way to stop it was by removal. Maintaining, consistently, that an all-knowing and all-good God would not have commanded the action, then, without access to all of the morally relevant factors for deliberation, is a conclusion we are not in a position to make.

An analogue would be the authority or justification a surgeon would have to remove a cancerous tumor from a patient. We do not accuse the surgeon of being genocidal with regard to malignant cells or body parts, nor do we question a surgeon’s expertise or authority to do so just because we find the idea of removing human members distasteful.

Relative to God, the whole of humanity might be considered much like a living organism. It could be argued that he (and only he) has the right, given his role as Creator, to superintend the development and health of the body of humankind. When the future moral health and, perhaps, the continued existence of humanity is at stake, it may very well be that God has the moral authority (absolute goodness) to intercede and the purview (omniscience) necessary to decide that drastic measures are necessary.

I would argue that, in principle, if God is omniscient and omnibenevolent it is not logically impossible for a determination to have been made by God to cull a malignant part of humanity for much the same justification that a surgeon would have to remove living tissue from a human body to ensure the survival of that body.

The problem is that we do not fully comprehend the systemic nature of evil to claim that God’s action was not warranted at the time. We are clearly lacking with regard to both knowledge and foresight, and do not have the capacity to fully grasp the far reaching impact of unfettered evil on human existence.

This “in principle” defense can be made without necessitating a commitment that every assertion about God commanding genocide must be accepted at face value simply because some bellicose group or other claims they have God’s sanction.

What it does mean is that we cannot argue from our limited moral perspective to a judgement about God’s warrant. We can doubt that God would order such a thing and question what justification would be necessary for him to do so, but we are in no position to make a definitive claim that he would or could not EVER be morally justified to do so.

To make such a judgement would require access to the kind of morally relevant information only an omniscient God would have access to: knowledge of the far-reaching repercussions of allowing a determinately evil and aggressive culture to continue to influence a nascent humanity from that point forward through all history.

It is only when a presumption that it was NOT God, or at least not an all-knowing or all-good God, or that the Jewish community was merely seeking validation for their own brutality does any critique hold. Yet, those are the very presumptions that do not prove, but rather beg the question of whether God could ever have warrant to command such a thing.

If down through the history of mankind had there been a verifiable, habitual and consistent call by God for the extermination of groups of people for no reason other than it is his will, then we would have a case against God, but since the stated justification for these acts was the overwhelming preponderance and abetting of evil by the groups in question, we ought not be so quick to cast judgement in human favor. Consider the Nazi atrocities and scores of genocides that have been perpetrated by human beings, before making a claim that the moral degeneracy of groups of human beings could never reach a point where God might decide to intervene.

Each of us as human beings has a death warrant on our heads. Each one of us will die. It is an inevitable fact of existence. If God exists, then the death of each and every member of the human race is a supreme and universal act of genocide that God has commanded.

The reality, assuming the existence of the Supreme God, is that the death sentence on the Cannanites is not an isolated and deplorable event but needs to be viewed in the context of God’s jurisdiction over all existence including human life itself, where each and every one of us human beings been found wanting by an omnibenevolent God and sentenced to death.

An atheist might deny all of this, and that may be a legitimate position. However, the move an atheist cannot make is to try to use the existence of these Old Testament narratives as a moral disproof precisely because there is no logical warrant for concluding that an omniscient and omnibenevolent God could never - in particular near the beginning of human history - have warrant to order the destruction of a corrupt culture. We are not in the privileged position required to make such a determination.
 
I’m ignoring your ‘very basic moral principle’ because it is not a general axiom from which we can derive further aspects of morality. It is specific to abortion, is worded in a way that presupposes an answer and will lead to specific arguments about abortion whereas the question at hand is the Golden Rule in particular and the concept of Absolute Morality.

If you want to talk specifically about the morality of abortion, then there are plenty of threads that deal with it. Let me know which one you post in and I’ll join in the conversation.
There is a distinctive smell of fish in your reply. Red herring to be precise.

My principle does have repercussions for the issue of abortion, but it’s applicability is wide, very wide.

Consider all kinds of moral questions:
  1. Killing a person to get their money
  2. Doing away with your spouse
  3. Killing your children because you don’t want the bother of supporting them any longer
  4. Killing a political rival
  5. Policeman shooting a suspect
  6. Doing away with a bothersome neighbor
  7. Getting out of a relationship
  8. Canceling a debt to someone - death has a way of relinquishing debt
  9. Getting your way with the TV remote
  10. Getting a desired spot on a sports team where you are second in line for the position
I could go on and on but it is getting late.

Are you claiming these examples are not ultimately a question of the value of life over convenience? They most certainly are. The principle clearly makes all of them morally wrong as reasonable deductions from life is always more valuable than convenience whenever a clear choice exists between the option of directly taking a life and being inconvenienced.

Certainly abortion also fits, but that is because, like all the others, it is clearly morally wrong.

By the way, this pertains very much to the opening post because the point I am getting to is that the Golden Rule is a rule of thumb or a formal rule without content, depending upon how it is used, but the axiomatic principle I have offered stipulates the content of moral reasoning - the life of a moral agent is the standard by which all other moral considerations are based.

That would seem self-evident regarding the life of the moral agent him/herself, but the logical principle of “Treat like things in a like manner” provides the step from the value of one’s own life to valuing the lives of others over convenience.

This does not mean the principle is sufficient for a complete ethic, but it is a necessary starting point.

Again, I am challenging you to provide a case where a capable moral agent would opt for their own convenience when that directly entails the life of another human being.

My contention is that no such example exists and only our moral blindness makes it appear that abortion is an exception. It isn’t and that becomes very clear when you begin to stack up all the instances where that option would be unthinkable. The question is, “Why is it even considered thinkable in the case of abortion?” That will go a long way to showing abortion involves a derailment of sound moral thinking.

Take note - I am making this case without reference to God, just reasonable moral thinking.
 
I’m challenging your definition of cannibalism.

Eating human flesh is eating human flesh, cannibalism. The circumstances that surround it determines the morality. I am making a distinction between the two acts of cannibalism.
Eating flesh that is already dead (carrion) is scavenging.

Killing and eating human flesh is hunting.

Both might fall under the definition of cannibalism, but clearly the acts are different.

It would be like claiming negligent homicide is morally the same as premeditated murder, morally speaking, because they both CAN be called “killing.”

In point of fact, however, scavenging human flesh does not actually involve the intentional killing of a human being only what is done with the remains, so your point about cannibalism does not even have the same merit as making negligent homicide identical to murder because both of these actually do involve the taking of a life.

Any conclusion that scavenging human flesh is morally identical to hunting a human being and eating his/her flesh BECAUSE they CAN both be loosely called “cannibalism,” is clearly a nonsensical one. They are not the same.

If you can’t see the difference and regard the two acts as identical, then clearly you have no idea what morally relevant means. Why are we even arguing this point? It is so self-evident that contending otherwise ventures boldly into the world of muddleheadedness.
 
Why should I be convinced by the assurance of someone who cannot distinguish then from than? 😃
My thanks for the heads up in regard to my poor grammar.

And again, I will pass on your axiomatic basis for morality. Combined with the posts you are continually making to try to introduce abortion, the intent is obvious.

Again, if you want to specifically discuss the subject, then start a thread or let me know which thread you would like to use.
 
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