Is the Golden Rule a Foundational Moral Principle or A Rule of Thumb?

[meltzerboy]

We are social animals. We and our closest ape relatives function in complex social groups, we need each other for survival. Our lives have value not only to ourselves but also to the larger social structure.

We start by inherently valuing ourselves. We have a survival instinct. Our first experience is as a child relying on their parents. We value our own lives and others fulfill our needs. As we grow older and are able to reason we see our place in the greater society and our place in it.

However, is the reciprocity hypothesis of helping behavior, which is based on evolutionary psychology, also based on morality as we generally define it today? Or are you defining morality in a different way, as did French writers in the 17th century?

 

[PRmerger]

We are social animals.

Indeed.

We and our closest ape relatives function in complex social groups, we need each other for survival. Our lives have value not only to ourselves but also to the larger social structure.

Well, we also need bacteria to survive. (Bacteria assist in digestive processes.)

Why do you not feel bad about taking antibiotics and killing the normal flora that exists in your colon?

 

[Roscoe_Turner]

However, is the reciprocity hypothesis of helping behavior, which is based on evolutionary psychology, also based on morality as we generally define it today? Or are you defining morality in a different way, as did French writers in the 17th century?

It can be observed in oher social animals so It would be a predecessor to formal codes of morality.

 

[Roscoe_Turner]

Indeed.

Well, we also need bacteria to survive. (Bacteria assist in digestive processes.)

Why do you not feel bad about taking antibiotics and killing the normal flora that exists in your colon?

I take a probiotic whenever I take an antibiotic. People are harder to replace

 

[PRmerger]

I take a probiotic whenever I take an antibiotic. People are harder to replace

This is not an apologia as to why you view human beings as having inherent dignity.

You have not yet explained why human beings other than yourself are valuable.

It can’t be simply because you need them to survive.

As stated, you need bacteria to survive as well.

Yet you have no respect for bacteria as inherently worthy of life. In fact, you see them as simply replaceable organisms. .

Why?

 

[Roscoe_Turner]

This is not an apologia as to why you view human beings as having inherent dignity.

You have not yet explained why human beings other than yourself are valuable.

It can’t be simply because you need them to survive.

As stated, you need bacteria to survive as well.

Yet you have no respect for bacteria as inherently worthy of life. In fact, you see them as simply replaceable organisms. .

Why?

I have. You just don’t accept it. It starts as an egocentric position and becomes more inclusive with reason.

 

[PRmerger]

I have.

No, you haven’t. At least not one that offers any coherence.

You just don’t accept it. It starts as an egocentric position and becomes more inclusive with reason.

You have not yet been able to provide an answer that excludes, “I know I value myself, therefore all others are inferior to me.”

How do you discard that approach?

 

[Roscoe_Turner]

No, you haven’t. At least not one that offers any coherence.

You have not yet been able to provide an answer that excludes, “I know I value myself, therefore all others are inferior to me.”

How do you discard that approach?

Even if one thinks oneself superior it doesn’t mean others are without inherent value. A hundred dollar bill and a five dollar bill both have inherent value.

 

[PRmerger]

Even if one thinks oneself superior it doesn’t mean others are without inherent value. A hundred dollar bill and a five dollar bill both have inherent value.

Actually, the above is not a good example at all, Roscoe.

A hundred dollar bill has no inherent value. At all.

Its value is assigned to it by our society.

In and of itself, it is simply a piece of paper.

 

[PRmerger]

Even if one thinks oneself superior it doesn’t mean others are without inherent value.

Exactly.

So why do others have any inherent dignity to you?

Because they assist you in survival?

Then you would have to conclude that bacteria have inherent dignity.

That’s the logical conclusion of your apologia you’ve provided thus var.

And we can see that it’s not a coherent position you’ve espoused here.

 

[Roscoe_Turner]

Actually, the above is not a good example at all, Roscoe.

A hundred dollar bill has no inherent value. At all.

Its value is assigned to it by our society.

In and of itself, it is simply a piece of paper.

Obviously the example is within the context of our monetary system. If you believe they have no value you are free to send yours my way

 

[PRmerger]

Obviously the example is within the context of our monetary system. If you believe they have no value you are free to send yours my way

You seem to be operating under a misapprehension that there is no difference between “value” and “inherent value”.

$100 bills have value.

They just don’t have inherent value.

 

[Roscoe_Turner]

Exactly.

So why do others have any inherent dignity to you?

Because they assist you in survival?

Then you would have to conclude that bacteria have inherent dignity.

That’s the logical conclusion of your apologia you’ve provided thus var.

And we can see that it’s not a coherent position you’ve espoused here.

I can repeat again if it helps.

We may start with an egocentric value of our own lives. If we value our own lives we can see by extension that others value their own lives. We can also see that their lives add value to our own. It blossoms like a flower growing exponentially and we see we are all connected, each a thread in the web.

 

[Roscoe_Turner]

You seem to be operating under a misapprehension that there is no difference between “value” and “inherent value”.

$100 bills have value.

They just don’t have inherent value.

They do within the context of our monetary system.

 

[PRmerger]

I can repeat again if it helps.

We may start with an egocentric value of our own lives. If we value our own lives we can see by extension that others value their own lives. We can also see that their lives add value to our own. It blossoms like a flower growing exponentially and we see we are all connected, each a thread in the web.

Again, this does not explain this paradigm: I have inherent value, therefore I view all others as having less value than me.

Why do you not conclude this?

 

[meltzerboy]

They do within the context of our monetary system.

I think when you add “within the context,” you are diluting your own argument since the notion of inherent value does not necessitate a context.

 

[Roscoe_Turner]

Again, this does not explain this paradigm: I have inherent value, therefore I view all others as having less value than me.

Why do you not conclude this?

It’s a process. Just as a infant goes from focusing on it’s own needs, to becoming empathic as a child. We all learn at different speeds.

If the counter is we have inherent value because we are made in God’s image and God is good. Why is God good? Because He’s God. Sounds like tautology.

 

[Roscoe_Turner]

I think when you add “within the context,” you are diluting your own argument since the notion of inherent value does not necessitate a context.

Everything has a context.

 

[meltzerboy]

Everything has a context.

As a psychologist, I would have to agree. As a human being, I’m not so sure, even admitting the existence of religious and moral context.

 

[Roscoe_Turner]

As a psychologist, I would have to agree. As a human being, I’m not so sure, even admitting the existence of religious and moral context.

Existence is a context.