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Nicene
Guest
In other words you can’t.
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SolaChristo
Guest
Everything from altar girls to annulements to stances on thedeath penalty to how they handle priests accused of abuse the whole spectrum of what seperates liberal Catholics from conservative.
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SolaChristo
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The notion that it was the Roman Catholic Church that gave us the bible and the unsaid implication is that they have ownership of it is disturbing on several differnet levels.In other words you can’t.
The OT came through the prophets of God who were Isrealites. The NT was written by inspired men before the end of the 1st century AD. The Catholic Church cannot take credit for either of these.The scriptures were preserved in all the Christian communities until the present day.
At the time of the Reformation the RCC did not value the Holy Scriptures as much as the reformers---- How many catholics went to their death to be able to read the bible?
This ill fated attempt to wrest bible ownership to those that value it the most is unfounded. Untill just recently you could not find an online Catholic english translation. Look how many bible study tools are online for protestants compare that to the online bible study tools there are for Catholics. You can not with a straight face say that Catholics honor the bible as much as Protestants.
Or are you trying to do so?
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Lazerlike42
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So then you are one of only a few people who really care about God?
I can honestly say I have never heard anything so prideful in my life.
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Lazerlike42
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These are not doctrines.
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Paris_Blues
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SolaChristo said:
Haha, I’ve heard F. Corapi say something like this!
Or was it, “your mamma wears combat boots!” ?[unity.enya.com/images/smiles/smiles_grin.gif](javascript:insertsmilie(’
’))
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Lazerlike42
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The Catholic Church honors the Bible far more than other Christians, for one reason above all else. Every non-Catholic I have ever met (including myself when I was one) has to pick some verses as the “dominant” verses while saying that others that don’t fit with their interpretations of those verses must be “interpreted in light of the stronger verses,” in other words, must be relegated as not as important. The only interpretation of the Bible that I have ever seen which gives every verse in Scripture 100% equal weight is the Catholic one.
Not to mention the fact that the Catholic Church had the respect to preserve the entire Bible instead of throwing out Scriptures that disagreed with particular individual’s beliefs.
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Nicene
Guest
Anyone else see the dychotomy here or is it just me?
You have just proven 100% that you don’t have the Holy Spirit working in you. If you could actually read what you just wrote you would understand why.
Peace and God Bless
Nicene
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SolaChristo
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Hebrews 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.
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SolaChristo
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Why is it each of you have “thrown out” Jer 31:33 and Heb 8:10?
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Daniel_Marsh
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Hi Deb, I must be a very poor protestant, because God has never revealled to me the true meaning of a difficult verse. I simply placed that verse, whatever it was on the back burner until I have deeper study into the topic that the verse was covering. There are many verses that I place on the back burner. And, there will be many verses that I will say when I get to heaven, duh!!!
Lets look at Hebrews 8 to see if we can make sense of it.
6But the ministry Jesus has received is as superior to theirs as the covenant of which he is mediator is superior to the old one, and it is founded on better promises.
7For if there had been nothing wrong with that first covenant, no place would have been sought for another. 8But God found fault with the people and said:
“The time is coming, declares the Lord,
when I will make a new covenant
with the house of Israel
and with the house of Judah.
9It will not be like the covenant
I made with their forefathers
**when I took them by the hand
to lead them out of Egypt, **
because they did not remain faithful to my covenant,
and I turned away from them, declares the Lord.
10This is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel
after that time, declares the Lord.
I will put my laws in their minds
and write them on their hearts.
I will be their God,
and they will be my people.
11No longer will a man teach his neighbor,
or a man his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’
because they will all know me,
from the least of them to the greatest.
12For I will forgive their wickedness
and will remember their sins no more.”
13By calling this covenant “new,” he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and aging will soon disappear.
It is simply a contrast between covenants. In the old covenant God had to lead the people around by the nose so to speak. In the new covenant God will write his laws on our hearts and we will have a deeper understanding of who God is. The knowledge promised under the new covenant is a deeper understanding of God himself. Basically, God has revealed more information about himself.
Hebrews 1
**
1In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways, 2but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son,** whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 3The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven. 4So he became as much superior to the angels as the name he has inherited is superior to theirs.
Basically, the old covenant was the shaddow in the cave, and the new covenant is like the man walking out of the cave into the bright sunlight. The text is a contrast of covenants.
gotta ya thinking
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SolaChristo
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why do you say Peace and God bless if thats not what you mean?Anyone else see the dychotomy here or is it just me?
You have just proven 100% that you don’t have the Holy Spirit working in you. If you could actually read what you just wrote you would understand why.
Peace and God Bless
Nicene
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MrS
Guest
Died for their beliefs (in a Truth, not in a lie ) ---- how about every one of the Apostles except the beloved disciple - and he was boiled in oil… Do you really think those who were slaughtered in the coliseum were Baptists???
First “evidence” of the word Catholic came from one who studied at the foot of John for 40 years… did he get it wrong… or perhaps did you?
I cringe at the idea of honoring (worshiping the bible)
Question: if ALL the bibles on earth were to be removed at once… say tonight… what would you have left?
Can’t use your memory (that’s tradition).
Can’t accept what your pastor says… what is now his authority for what he says?
Can’t try to re-write the bible from memory… whose version could be inerrant… and who who decide that?
The Catholic Church however, would be fine… and in the same position it was for the first 300+ years after the death of its Founder, Jesus Christ.
In fact, only the Catholic Church has the “audacity” to claim Jesus as their founder. No man-made denomination claims more than some sort of secret revelation… or underground resurgance… implying Jesus did it wrong the first time.
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Lazerlike42
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SolaChristo said:
What you quoted is absolutely correct. What I called prideful was your apparent belief that you are one of only a few people that ever lived to really have true faith in God.
For instance, that you have more faith than St. Bernadette, who was a Rosary-saying, Eucharist-receiving, confession-going Catholic through and through.
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Lazerlike42
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I haven’t. They fit perfectly in to my theology. In fact, St. Paul even wrote that the gentiles had the law written on their hearts before Christ came to earth:
“Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.”
That fits with my theology too. Does it fit with yours?
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SolaChristo
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Because you have not understood what I say you grossly misrepresented what I said.
You say my answer does not work for you.
My reply is that it works for me.
You assumed I was agreeing to your second option -----which I wasnt.
Why did you make such a leap?
You will excuse me if I ignore you.
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Lazerlike42
Guest
I made such a leap because your answer was extremely ambiguous. I apologize.
I also made my assumption because I showed that the answer does not work. If you try to say it does, you are ignoring the truth and refusing to open your mind and/or heart. The arguement I made is logically valid. There is no way to get around it, or if there is you have not proposed it. I am more than willing to listen. I believe that I am merely a fallible human being. I know that I can make great error in my search for God, so I know that I must always consider what others have to say to ensure that I am truly seeking God and that I truly find Him. I don’t ever wish to arrive on judgement day and have to regret that at one point in my life I did not give God that 5 minutes that He needed to show me the truth. I hope we all are, and I hope you are. I pray you are! So please show me how the answer works. I am quite honestly more than open to listening.
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SolaChristo
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*Originally Posted by javelin
Then I guess it doesn’t even matter what we believe because God is obviously leading many sincere people to many different interpretations! If they are sincerely trying to follow Jesus, then they must not be being led astray! Whew… I’m glad I don’t need to worry about discussing doctrine anymore…
or maybe God meant this too:
Forgive me for the sarcasm above, but I simply CANNOT understand how people continue to hold the position that “God leads all who sincerely seek Him to a correct understanding of Sacred Scripture” when history, common sense, and personal experience speak so utterly conclusively against it.
The ONLY possible way to justify that position is to PRESUME that anyone who does not agree with your own personal interpretation is not sincerely following Jesus, which is, in my opinion, an extremely prideful and arrogant thing to presume.
Again, forgive me if my frustration is boiling over.
Peace,
javelin
I look at Joseph, the foster father of Jesus, who married Mary against everything that Jewish tradition and teaching would have.
Joseph believed the dream given to him and acting on it even though it was contrary to everything that was until then believed.
Not all Christians are given such revelations, not all are hearing from God in this way. But I thank God that He still gives us dreams and visions, that we can still walk with him in the cool of the day, that we can hear His voice and act on it even though it is contrary to all human wisdom.
My answer to you is that not all professed Christians have that faith, to me this is sad.*
OK I believe this is the exchange that is in question.
This is what Im saying. God will lead all sincere Christians who are open to Him. He does this by the working of grace in our lives.
We can be lead by the Spirit as Paul comments that those w3ho are lead by the Spirit put to death the things of the flesh. It can be a coworker saying or doing something that places on our heart a heavenly desire. It can be a biblical passage that is “stumpled” upon. It can be the word aof a pastor or someone in authority over us. Grace can and does work in many ways.
I was commenting on the Gift of the Holy Spirit. I beleive any Christian who desires this gift (the Holy Spirit working in and through them) can have. Faith is necessary to recieve this. Some of this will be able to pray for the sick and they will be healed they will have the specific gift of healing. Some will have the specific gift of word of knowledge where they are able to supernaturally know what to say to a specific individual at aa specific point in time, not all but some.
I do believe that all Chrisitians who want to be lead by the Spirit and have the Spirit of Truth to lead them to all truth, not some but all that desire it.
For an example let me say if a Unitarian and a Catholic desire to be lead by the Spirit, God will lead them. That doesnt mean the Unitarian will comvert to Catholism or the Catholic to Unitarianism what it means is that the Spirit will lead them first to a life of holiness and then to a life of service.
I am totally convinced that God is a lot less concerned about doctrinal differences than we are.
Then I guess it doesn’t even matter what we believe because God is obviously leading many sincere people to many different interpretations! If they are sincerely trying to follow Jesus, then they must not be being led astray! Whew… I’m glad I don’t need to worry about discussing doctrine anymore…
or maybe God meant this too:
Forgive me for the sarcasm above, but I simply CANNOT understand how people continue to hold the position that “God leads all who sincerely seek Him to a correct understanding of Sacred Scripture” when history, common sense, and personal experience speak so utterly conclusively against it.
The ONLY possible way to justify that position is to PRESUME that anyone who does not agree with your own personal interpretation is not sincerely following Jesus, which is, in my opinion, an extremely prideful and arrogant thing to presume.
Again, forgive me if my frustration is boiling over.
Peace,
javelin
I look at Joseph, the foster father of Jesus, who married Mary against everything that Jewish tradition and teaching would have.
Joseph believed the dream given to him and acting on it even though it was contrary to everything that was until then believed.
Not all Christians are given such revelations, not all are hearing from God in this way. But I thank God that He still gives us dreams and visions, that we can still walk with him in the cool of the day, that we can hear His voice and act on it even though it is contrary to all human wisdom.
My answer to you is that not all professed Christians have that faith, to me this is sad.*
OK I believe this is the exchange that is in question.
This is what Im saying. God will lead all sincere Christians who are open to Him. He does this by the working of grace in our lives.
We can be lead by the Spirit as Paul comments that those w3ho are lead by the Spirit put to death the things of the flesh. It can be a coworker saying or doing something that places on our heart a heavenly desire. It can be a biblical passage that is “stumpled” upon. It can be the word aof a pastor or someone in authority over us. Grace can and does work in many ways.
I was commenting on the Gift of the Holy Spirit. I beleive any Christian who desires this gift (the Holy Spirit working in and through them) can have. Faith is necessary to recieve this. Some of this will be able to pray for the sick and they will be healed they will have the specific gift of healing. Some will have the specific gift of word of knowledge where they are able to supernaturally know what to say to a specific individual at aa specific point in time, not all but some.
I do believe that all Chrisitians who want to be lead by the Spirit and have the Spirit of Truth to lead them to all truth, not some but all that desire it.
For an example let me say if a Unitarian and a Catholic desire to be lead by the Spirit, God will lead them. That doesnt mean the Unitarian will comvert to Catholism or the Catholic to Unitarianism what it means is that the Spirit will lead them first to a life of holiness and then to a life of service.
I am totally convinced that God is a lot less concerned about doctrinal differences than we are.
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MrS
Guest
Do the words
“…One Lord, One Faith, One Baptism…” mean anything to you?
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Daniel_Marsh
Guest
bookmark, this christ only guy may have something to say worth listening to.
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