Is the Host the body and blood of Christ even at the atomic level?

[catholic1seeks]

We cannot sense individual atoms and subatomic particles as bread and wine. Therefore, Wesrock’s answer is the correct one.

 

[Richca]

But what is the substance of bread?

In Thomistic philosophy and metaphysics, the substance of bread in contrast to the accidents of bread is what is composed of the substantial form of bread and prime matter which is not visible, sensible, divisible, or quantifiable in itself. Whatever is visible, sensible, or quantifiable of bread or the substance of bread is due to the accidents of bread some which naturally follow the substance of bread and which are called proper accidents as opposed to transient accidents.

 

[runningdude]

The remnants of clothing did nothing. God granted healing to those who venerated the artifacts.

 

[Shakuhachi]

Such a definition of “substance” is then pretty much meaningless, isn’t it?

I recall, was it nominalistic like William of Ockham who rejected such a concept.

I will have to look it up.

 

[spockrates]

spockrates:

Fascinating question! So, I’m thinking that if each wafer has 100% of the essence of body, soul and divinity of Christ; then each crumb would have 100% of the essence of the body, soul and divinity of Christ. The inference, then seems to be that each election, neutron and proton would also have 100% of the essence of the body, soul and divinity of Christ. That is, yes, even at the atomic level.

First off:

• s/essence/substance/g
  
  In other words, where you talk about “essence”, the correct theological/philosophical term is really “substance”. It’s the substance of Christ – body, blood, soul, and divinity – that exists in the Eucharist.

Second:

• The Church teaches that the Real Presence of Christ exists in every particle of the Eucharist (crumb, droplet, etc) which is identifiable as the accidents (i.e., physical attributes) of bread and wine.
  
  Therefore, if a small particle can be IDed as ‘bread’ or ‘wine’, then the Real Presence exists. But, if a particle is so small that the accidents of bread or wine are not discernable, then the Real Presence does not exist. So, in response to your assertion: no, that does not mean that Christ is present at the merely atomic level. In fact, it explicitly means that He is not.

Hope that helps!

Yeah, yeah! Thanks!

 

[Shakuhachi]

But I think it is, otherwise we would not be so insistent in our faith on a resurrected body to be reunited with soul.

 

[Richca]

Such a definition of “substance” is then pretty much meaningless, isn’t it?

I recall, was it nominalistic like William of Ockham who rejected such a concept.

I will have to look it up.

What do you mean meaningless? For example, the substance of Christ’s body in the eucharist is his whole entire body with all its parts, his head, arms, legs, flesh, bones, muscles, heart, etc. which is why at the consecration at Mass the priest says in the words of Christ ‘This is my body which shall be given up for you’ and when we receive communion the priest says ‘The body of Christ.’ Human bodies are made out of matter and matter belongs to the substance of a thing as well as the substantial form. But, matter in the Thomistic sense is not the same as what modern science or physics may call or define matter if they even have a definition. Also important is the distinction between substance/accident from an Aristotlelian/Thomistic metaphysical perspective in Aquinas’ explanation of transubstantiation.

William of Ockham has not been declared a saint and doctor of the Church either. Yes, William of Ockham is associated with nominalism. Aquinas was a moderate realist.

 

[joeybaggz]

scientific analysis of what is involved in transubstantiation

What??? surely you are kidding ….
How does anyone of the Catholic FAITH, take this question seriously. Next we will be asking if Jesus is truly human at the subatomic level ???

 

[Shakuhachi]

So then, what is the substance of bread that is no longer present in the Eucharist?

 

[Richca]

So then, what is the substance of bread that is no longer present in the Eucharist?

The substantial form of bread and the matter out of which the bread was made. By divine power, the matter of the bread is converted or changed into the pre-existent matter of Christ’s body and the substantial form of the bread is changed into the form of Christ’s body. Form and matter (hylemorphism) are the essential principles of material substances in Thomistic metaphysics. By a divine miracle, the accidents of the bread remain after the consecration without a substance to inhere in, namely, the substantial form of bread and matter.

 

[Shakuhachi]

But it is completely in the mind. There is no spirit of bread.

I guess i am a Conceptualists.

 

[Richca]

But is is completely in the mind. There is no spirit of bread.

I guess i am a Conceptualists.

Matter is not a spirit or a form but it doesn’t exist without form of some kind. There is a real material or physical if you want change at the substance level which involves form and matter that takes place in the bread and wine in the eucharist into the material substances of the body and blood of Christ but the accidents or appearances of the bread and wine remain. So, we don’t sensibly observe this supernatural and miraculous change of substance in the eucharist like we do in normal substantial changes of nature because normally the accidents change when the substance changes in the works of nature. So, in one sense, we have to believe with the mind on account of the word of Christ who is God that the substances of the bread and wine change into the substances of the body and blood of Christ because we don’t sensibly observe it. On the other hand, a real change does take place at the substance level or nature of the bread and wine so that after the consecration of the elements the substances of the bread and wine are no longer present but have been changed into the substances of the body and blood of Christ.

 

[Shakuhachi]

That is an excellent explanation. Thank you. I just don’t believe it. I do believe Christ is truly and uniquely present but I leave it as mystery.

 

[Richca]

But I think it is, otherwise we would not be so insistent in our faith on a resurrected body to be reunited with soul.

Our bodies are a part of our substance, human nature, essence. A human being is a composite of soul or spirit (form) and body (matter) which gives us our human nature. We are not pure spirits like God or the angels. Our bodies made out of matter are not an accident as matter is not an accident but it is an accident (quantity) for the body to be extended, large or small, fat or thin, 7 feet tall or 4 feet tall. Accordingly, the resurrection of the body God has promised us makes perfect sense since he made us as human beings whose nature it is to be a composite of spirit and body.

 

[clarkgamble1]

Therefore, if a small particle can be identified as ‘bread’ or ‘wine’, then the Real Presence exists. But, if a particle is so small that the accidents of bread or wine are not discernible, then the Real Presence does not exist.

In truth a piece of bread is composed of a zillion tiny microscopic particles each having the characteristics of the big recognizable chunk of bread. These particles are separated by space. There are many many of them, each with the Real Presence. They are so small you couldn’t see them with the naked eye. Thus, they could easily be separated from the main chunk of bread and scattered about, still keeping the Real Presence. One Host if ground up into a fine bread powder could be scattered over many square miles. It is not necessary to break the bread down into atomic particles. Thus after thousands of years of consecrating Hosts there is bound to be churches full of Jesus dust. No humor intended here.

 

[Augustinian]

Bread isn’t bread at the atomic level. At the atomic level, matter is one of 118 elements, hydrogen, helium, carbon, etc. Bread isn’t one of them

 

[Gorgias]

In truth a piece of bread is composed of a zillion tiny microscopic particles each having the characteristics of the big recognizable chunk of bread.

@Augustinian said it first – there’s no such thing as “microscopic bread” (or “atomic bread”, or however you want to describe it).

These particles are separated by space. There are many many of them, each with the Real Presence. They are so small you couldn’t see them with the naked eye.

Remember: if you can’t distinguish it as ‘bread’ or ‘wine’ with your naked eye, it isn’t the Real Presence.

One Host if ground up into a fine bread powder could be scattered over many square miles.

It would cease to be the Real Presence if it were not recognizable as ‘bread’. A crumb? Sure – recognizable. A particle of powder? Not so much.

Thus after thousands of years of consecrating Hosts there is bound to be churches full of Jesus dust.

Nope. Not according to the teaching of the Church.

 

[MockSock]

I once heard a story of a scientist who put a particle of the consecrated host under a microscope. When he looked he saw the cellular structure of human flesh.

Whether the story is true or not, I don’t know. I don’t really think it matters.

We believe that the actual substance of the bread, changes into the body, blood, soul and divinity of Christ. Hence, we say it is transubstantiated. If we believe the substance changes, then it must change at the atomic level. Even though we can’t see, feel or taste the difference.

 

[Lee1]

I feel it may be at the quantum level but as I say who knows what the spirit really is or what dimensions it exists in?

 

[Shakuhachi]

there’s no such thing as “microscopic bread” (or “atomic bread”, or however you want to describe it).

Right. “Bread” is a mental construct corresponding our definition of what bread ought to be when we bake it and eat it. So then, what is the substance of bread? The mental construct or the thing we eat?