Is the "Jesus of the Bible God?"

[johnnyjones]

At which point we PAUSE, smile and pull out the Catholic Bible and share:

John 10: [26"but you do not believe, because you do not belong to my sheep. [27] My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me; [28] and I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish, and no one shall snatch them out of my hand. [29] My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand. [30***] I and the Father are one." *

[31] The Jews took up stones again to stone him. [32] Jesus answered them, “I have shown you many good works from the Father; for which of these do you stone me?”
[33] The Jews answered him, "It is not for a good work that we stone you but for blasphemy; because you, being a man, make yourself God."

There is AWAYS " a paul harvey LIKe “rest of the Story” with there responses:thumbsup:

God Bless,
pat /PJMThat you for the response and it is accurate. I will tell you I have been “witnessing” to Jws for years and have become very versed in their belief system. They have the verses you presented of course and more yet they deny the deity of Jesus. Why? Because they view the bible through the lens of the Watchtower Organization. It’s their filter that blocks truth.

Their "bible’ the “New World translation” is full of twisted passages to support their peculiar doctrines. They changed Col. 2:9 from “In him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily” to “In him dwells all the fullness of the divine quality”. You have to use the passages they haven’t corrupted yet, which are actually numerous because the bible is a Jesus book and Jesus is clearly God.

I always go to John 17:3 and tell them this passage says Jehovah is the one true God, and then nod yes. Then I tell them that that would mean every other god is false right? They usually say yes. Then I use their own belief that Jesus was A God and ask them if Jesus is a false god. They stumble and say,“hes god in a sense”. The opposite of true is false. If Jehovah is the one true God, there is no such thing as a god that is “a little true”.

They like to say Satan is a god. But you respond that he is a false god, which they acknowledge as accurate. They are a diabolical organization.

 

[tabycat]

He also used the term “I AM” for Himself, and said “before Abrerham was I AM”. The term 'I AM" was, in the Old Testament, ment God.

Should have included that when someone said these things, first century Jews know that Person was claming to be God.

 

[PJM]

=johnnyjones;9357945]That you for the response and it is accurate. I will tell you I have been “witnessing” to Jws for years and have become very versed in their belief system. They have the verses you presented of course and more yet they deny the deity of Jesus. Why? Because they view the bible through the lens of the Watchtower Organization. It’s their filter that blocks truth.

Their "bible’ the “New World translation” is full of twisted passages to support their peculiar doctrines. They changed Col. 2:9 from “In him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily” to “In him dwells all the fullness of the divine quality”. You have to use the passages they haven’t corrupted yet, which are actually numerous because the bible is a Jesus book and Jesus is clearly God.

I always go to John 17:3 and tell them this passage says Jehovah is the one true God, and then nod yes. Then I tell them that that would mean every other god is false right? They usually say yes. Then I use their own belief that Jesus was A God and ask them if Jesus is a false god. They stumble and say,“hes god in a sense”. The opposite of true is false. If Jehovah is the one true God, there is no such thing as a god that is “a little true”.

They like to say Satan is a god. But you respond that he is a false god, which they acknowledge as accurate. They are a diabolical organization.

Thanks,

I’ve had enough JW visits and discussions that they seldom if ever come around any more I always have My Catholic bible handy and insist on USING IT:thumbsup:

God Bless, glad your with us.

pat/PJM

 

[MartinJordan]

The JW sees this and will simply say the actions of Jesus are the actions of the Father. They will site that “no one can see God (on earth) and live”. So Jesus can not be God.

It’s more like JW’s are questioning Jesus’ own words. Must ask them why didn’t Jesus inform Philip something like this “how can you ask me such questions, when no one can see God and live?”

MJ

 

[Phyllo]

Should have included that when someone said these things, first century Jews know that Person was claming to be God.

“I AM” is not in the NWT bible. They have God saying that I shall prove to be what I shall prove to be. More twisted scripture from the WT.

 

[Phyllo]

The JW sees this and will simply say the actions of Jesus are the actions of the Father. They will site that “no one can see God (on earth) and live”. So Jesus can not be God.

In reference to John 14:9 My JW friend said that when we see Jesus we see God’s qualities not God. Jesus has the exact qualities of his father.

Then she made a reference to Heb.1:3 He is the radiant light of God’s glory and the perfect copy of his nature, sustaining the universe by his powerful command: and now that he has destroyed the defilement of sin, he has gone to take his place in heaven at the right hand of divine Majesty. from the JB.

The whole problem for the JW’s is that they do not believe in the Trinity so no matter what the bible says they will never believe that Jesus is God the Son.

 

[PJM]

=Phyllo;9359712]In reference to John 14:9 My JW friend said that when we see Jesus we see God’s qualities not God. Jesus has the exact qualities of his father.

Then she made a reference to Heb.1:3 He is the radiant light of God’s glory and the perfect copy of his nature, sustaining the universe by his powerful command: and now that he has destroyed the defilement of sin, he has gone to take his place in heaven at the right hand of divine Majesty. from the JB.

The whole problem for the JW’s is that they do not believe in the Trinity so no matter what the bible says they will never believe that Jesus is God the Son.

ONCE AGAIN IT IT BUT necessary TO GO TO THE cATHOLIC bILBE WHICH predates THEIRS BY ABOUT 1,800 years!

hEB. 1:Heb.1
“In many and various ways God spoke of old to our fathers by the prophets; but in these last days he [the father] has spoken to us by a Son,[his son] whom he appointed the heir of all things, through whom also he created the world. He reflects the glory of God and bears the very stamp of his nature, upholding the universe by his word of power. When he had made purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high, having become as much superior to angels as the name he has obtained is more excellent than theirs. For to what angel did God ever say, "Thou art my Son, today I have begotten thee”? Or again, “I will be to him a father, and he shall be to me a son”? And again, when he brings the first-born into the world, he says, “Let all God’s angels worship him.” Of the angels he says, “Who makes his angels winds,
and his servants flames of fire.” But of the Son he says, “Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever, the righteous scepter is the scepter of thy kingdom.
Thou hast loved righteousness and hated lawlessness; therefore God, thy God, has anointed thee with the oil of gladness beyond thy comrades.” And, “Thou, Lord, didst found the earth in the beginning, and the heavens are the work of thy hands”

Here is bit a small sample of evidence:

Matthew 3: 13-17 “Then Jesus came from Galilee to the Jordan to John, to be baptized by him. John would have prevented him, saying, “I need to be baptized by you, and do you come to me?” But Jesus answered him, “Let it be so now; for thus it is fitting for us to fulfill all righteousness.” Then he consented. And when Jesus [GOD THE SON] was baptized, he went up immediately from the water, and behold, the heavens were opened and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, [HOLY SPIRIT] and alighting on him; and lo, a voice from heaven, saying, “This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased.” [THE FATHER].

Matthew. 26:29, 39, 42 “I tell you I shall not drink again of this fruit of the vine until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father’s kingdom." And going a little farther he fell on his face and prayed, “My Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me; nevertheless, not as I will, but as thou wilt.”

Matthew 28: 18-19 “And Jesus came and said to them, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit”

Mark. 8:38 “For whoever is ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation, of him will the Son of man also be ashamed, when he comes in the glory of his Father with the holy angels."

Luke 23: 34, 46 “And Jesus said, “Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do.” And they cast lots to divide his garments. Then Jesus, crying with a loud voice, said, “Father, into thy hands I commit my spirit!” And having said this he breathed his last.”

John 1:14 “And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, full of grace and truth; we have beheld his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father.”

John 5; 21-22 “For as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, so also the Son gives life to whom he will. The Father judges no one, but has given all judgment to the Son,”

Paul Rom. 15:6 “that together you may with one voice glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.”

God Bless,
pat/PJM

 

[Phyllo]

ONCE AGAIN IT IT BUT necessary TO GO TO THE cATHOLIC bILBE WHICH predates THEIRS BY ABOUT 1,800 years!

hEB. 1:Heb.1
“In many and various ways God spoke of old to our fathers by the prophets; but in these last days he [the father] has spoken to us by a Son,[his son] whom he appointed the heir of all things, through whom also he created the world. He reflects the glory of God and bears the very stamp of his nature, upholding the universe by his word of power. When he had made purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high, having become as much superior to angels as the name he has obtained is more excellent than theirs. For to what angel did God ever say, "Thou art my Son, today I have begotten thee”? Or again, “I will be to him a father, and he shall be to me a son”? And again, when he brings the first-born into the world, he says, “Let all God’s angels worship him.” Of the angels he says, “Who makes his angels winds,
and his servants flames of fire.” But of the Son he says, “Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever, the righteous scepter is the scepter of thy kingdom.
Thou hast loved righteousness and hated lawlessness; therefore God, thy God, has anointed thee with the oil of gladness beyond thy comrades.” And, “Thou, Lord, didst found the earth in the beginning, and the heavens are the work of thy hands”

Here is bit a small sample of evidence:

Matthew 3: 13-17 “Then Jesus came from Galilee to the Jordan to John, to be baptized by him. John would have prevented him, saying, “I need to be baptized by you, and do you come to me?” But Jesus answered him, “Let it be so now; for thus it is fitting for us to fulfill all righteousness.” Then he consented. And when Jesus [GOD THE SON] was baptized, he went up immediately from the water, and behold, the heavens were opened and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, [HOLY SPIRIT] and alighting on him; and lo, a voice from heaven, saying, “This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased.” [THE FATHER].

Matthew. 26:29, 39, 42 “I tell you I shall not drink again of this fruit of the vine until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father’s kingdom." And going a little farther he fell on his face and prayed, “My Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me; nevertheless, not as I will, but as thou wilt.”

Matthew 28: 18-19 “And Jesus came and said to them, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit”

Mark. 8:38 “For whoever is ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation, of him will the Son of man also be ashamed, when he comes in the glory of his Father with the holy angels."

Luke 23: 34, 46 “And Jesus said, “Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do.” And they cast lots to divide his garments. Then Jesus, crying with a loud voice, said, “Father, into thy hands I commit my spirit!” And having said this he breathed his last.”

John 1:14 “And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, full of grace and truth; we have beheld his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father.”

John 5; 21-22 “For as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, so also the Son gives life to whom he will. The Father judges no one, but has given all judgment to the Son,”

Paul Rom. 15:6 “that together you may with one voice glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.”

God Bless,
pat/PJM

Hi,

I have been through all of this with her and have gotten no where. They do not believe in the Trinity so trying to explain to them that Jesus is God the second person of the Trinity is impossible. They don’t understand that while Jesus is in His human body his Godly powers are veiled. Their pat answer is always that God the Almighty gave Jesus all his powers, which is true because Jesus on earth is in a human body.

You mentioned their bible–it is a fiction translated(written) by 4 of their people who knew nothing about the ancient languages. there fore they wrote their bible to match their beliefs. Before that they used the King James. Why the need for a new bible? What was wrong with the King James? The KJ would have taught them Christianity.

I’ll have to ask my friend again about Heb. 1:5 about God calling no son angel . I will see her on Friday.

 

[PJM]

=Phyllo;9363189]Hi,

I have been through all of this with her and have gotten no where. They do not believe in the Trinity so trying to explain to them that Jesus is God the second person of the Trinity is impossible. They don’t understand that while Jesus is in His human body his Godly powers are veiled. Their pat answer is always that God the Almighty gave Jesus all his powers, which is true because Jesus on earth is in a human body.

You mentioned their bible–it is a fiction translated(written) by 4 of their people who knew nothing about the ancient languages. there fore they wrote their bible to match their beliefs. Before that they used the King James. Why the need for a new bible? What was wrong with the King James? The KJ would have taught them Christianity.

I’ll have to ask my friend again about Heb. 1:5 about God calling no son angel . I will see her on Friday.

I AGREE with your points. Thank you.

I usually begin by asking two questions Before I allow there pitch.

How Old is your religion?

Who wrote YOUR Bible? And WHy is it divverent than the 2,000 year old catholic Bible?

God willing this at least gets them thinking

God Bless you,
pat /PJM

 

[Phyllo]

I AGREE with your points. Thank you.

I usually begin by asking two questions Before I allow there pitch.

How Old is your religion?

Who wrote YOUR Bible? And WHy is it divverent than the 2,000 year old catholic Bible?

God willing this at least gets them thinking

God Bless you,
pat /PJM

You are welcome.

They cannot tell you who wrote their bible because they are not told. They think their bible is the only true one.

I don’t think they are taught to think for themselves so I don’t think anything we say will get them thinking. I think they parrot what they are told.

It is the same thing with their Watchtower magazine.
. They do not tell you who wrote the article and they are most of they times vague on their resources so it is difficult to look them up. And most of the time they specifically mention Catholicism.

They are to be prayed for.

God Bless

 

[jlhargus]

The JW sees this and will simply say the actions of Jesus are the actions of the Father. They will site that “no one can see God (on earth) and live”. So Jesus can not be God.

The way I would answer; Of course the actions of Jesus are the actions of the Father and also the actions of the Holy Spirit. There is only ONE GOD. Though the action can be attributed to one of the persons when one acts ALL are acting. The Father, Son and Holy Spirit three persons in the ONE BEING OF GOD.

Rv1:6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen. 7 Behold, HE COMETH with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which PIERCED HIM: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen. 8 I AM Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, AND which IS TO COME, the Almighty.

Rv1:12 And I turned to see the voice that spake with me]. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks;

[Rv1:17 And **when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last: 18 I am HE THAT LIVETH, and WAS DEAD; and, BEHOLD, I AM ALIVE for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.]

Who is speaking, who is coming, who was pierced? Verse 8 says God the Almighty is coming but verse 7 tells us he who was pierced is comming. Who was pierced?. Our pierced Lord the Alpha and Omega the Almighty God Jesus Christ in the most blessed Trinity.

As far as dying when seeing God. God became man and we can see the God man and live. God’s divinity is veiled in His humanity.

Philippians2:5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: 6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: 7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: 8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

 

[PJM]

=Phyllo;9363306]You are welcome.

They cannot tell you who wrote their bible because they are not told. They think their bible is the only true one.

I don’t think they are taught to think for themselves so I don’t think anything we say will get them thinking. I think they parrot what they are told.

It is the same thing with their Watchtower magazine.
. They do not tell you who wrote the article and they are most of they times vague on their resources so it is difficult to look them up. And most of the time they specifically mention Catholicism.

They are to be prayed for.

God Bless

Yes INDEED and that is the exact point I make and ask WHY don’t they tell you? are they embarrassed about it? [with a smile and with charity of course!]

God Bless,
pat /PJM

 

[JonNC]

AWESOME response. THANKS

So if God “IS TRUTH” then how is it that Protestant are either:

1. Unable or possibly
2. Unwilling
3. Either the Bible IS the Inspired WORDS of God [2nd. Tim. 3:16] in total or it worthless

To take God at His words?

The Primacy of Peter
The Authority of the THEE Church
The Real Presence
Forgiveness of Sin
Salvation requirements

ALL have a solid biblcal foundation as taught, commanded, and mandated by Christ Himself.

How can this evident paradox exist:shrug:

God’s continued blessings,

pat /PJM

Hi Pat,
I am perfectly willing to accept all of the points above:

The Primacy of Peter, though I am not yet willing to accept the extrapolation of this primacy into supremacy and universal jurisdiction, much less infallibility* ex cathedra*
The Authority of the THEE Church, thought the discussion has to be had regarding what/where/who THEE Church is? I am unwilling to define THEE Church as only andexclusively those in communion with the Bshop of Rome. Scripture certainly doesn’t say that, neither do the councils of the early Church.
The Real Presence, completely agree
Forgiveness of Sin, completely agree, including auricular confession
Salvation requirements, no problem here, as well, unless the claim includes the necessity of being in communion with the Bishop of Rome

Jon

 

[Phyllo]

Yes INDEED and that is the exact point I make and ask WHY don’t they tell you? are they embarrassed about it? [with a smile and with charity of course!]

God Bless,
pat /PJM

I think they don’t tell you because they don’t want you to read their exact source. They have a knack for making something say the exact opposite of what it really says.

I found this to be a big issue with their booklet “Should You Believe In The Trinity”. Some one actually took the time to find some of their sources and print the entire paragraph. It is amazing how they can take a Church Father’s writings and turn it around that not even the Father believed in the Trinity. I call it creative editing.

I mentioned this to my friend and she said that the writers just printed the point they wanted to make. I believe that the writers are lying to their congregation and the congregation is falling for it hook line and sinker. And they really take aim at the Catholic Church.

 

[Phyllo]

The way I would answer; Of course the actions of Jesus are the actions of the Father and also the actions of the Holy Spirit. There is only ONE GOD. Though the action can be attributed to one of the persons when one acts ALL are acting. The Father, Son and Holy Spirit three persons in the ONE BEING OF GOD.

Rv1:6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen. 7 Behold, HE COMETH with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which PIERCED HIM: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen. 8 I AM Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, AND which IS TO COME, the Almighty.

Rv1:12 And I turned to see the voice that spake with me]. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks;

[Rv1:17 And **when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead

. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last: 18 I am HE THAT LIVETH, and WAS DEAD; and, BEHOLD, I AM ALIVE for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.]

Who is speaking, who is coming, who was pierced? Verse 8 says God the Almighty is coming but verse 7 tells us he who was pierced is comming. Who was pierced?. Our pierced Lord the Alpha and Omega the Almighty God Jesus Christ in the most blessed Trinity.

As far as dying when seeing God. God became man and we can see the God man and live. God’s divinity is veiled in His humanity.

Philippians2:5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: 6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: 7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: 8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

I have brought all this up to my JW friend and they have such a misconstrued way of interpreting the bible that there is no way to get through to them. They are blind and deaf to Catholic interpretation. Or even logical interpretation.

 

[jlhargus]

I have brought all this up to my JW friend and they have such a misconstrued way of interpreting the bible that there is no way to get through to them. They are blind and deaf to Catholic interpretation. Or even logical interpretation.

I’ve use this also, of course they come back and give the standard WT answers. I just keep repeating who is speaking, who is coming, who was pierced, who is the Alpha and Omega? We never really know what gets through to them when it comes to the end of the day. We can only leave it up to the Holy Spirit to pierce their hearts.

 

[PJM]

=JonNC;9363392]Hi Pat,
I am perfectly willing to accept all of the points above:

The Primacy of Peter, though I am not yet willing to accept the extrapolation of this primacy into supremacy and universal jurisdiction, much less infallibility* ex cathedra*
The Authority of the THEE Church, thought the discussion has to be had regarding what/where/who THEE Church is? I am unwilling to define THEE Church as only andexclusively those in communion with the Bshop of Rome. Scripture certainly doesn’t say that, neither do the councils of the early Church.
The Real Presence, completely agree
Forgiveness of Sin, completely agree, including auricular confession
Salvation requirements, no problem here, as well, unless the claim includes the necessity of being in communion with the Bishop of Rome

Jon

Hi again Jon,

I’m puzzled why this issue is such an issue with you?

One cannot dispuite that Peter is the Leadership choice of Christ. Mt. 10;1-8; Mt. 16:19-20; Mt. 28: 16-20… and I have a document showing 50 Peter FIRST from the Bible that I can send to you. If NOT Peter, who?

***God who is PERFECT can’t misspeak.

Here are just a couple of them:*

1. Peter’s name occurs first in all lists of apostles (Mt 10:2; Mk 3:16; Lk 6:14; Acts 1:13). Matthew even calls him the “first” (10:2). Judas Iscariot is invariably mentioned last.
2. Peter alone among the apostles receives a new name, Rock, solemnly conferred (Jn 1:42; Mt 16:18).
3. Likewise, Peter is regarded by Jesus as the Chief Shepherd after Himself (Jn 21:15-17), singularly by name, and over the universal Church, even though others have a similar but subordinate role (Acts 20:28; 1 Pet 5:2).
4. Peter alone among the apostles is exhorted by Jesus to “strengthen your brethren” (Lk 22:32).
5. Peter is specified by an angel as the leader and representative of the apostles (Mk 16:7).
6. Peter takes the lead in calling for a replacement for Judas (Acts 1:22).
7. Peter is the first person after Christ to raise the dead (Acts 9:40).
8. Peter presides over and opens the first Council of Christianity, and lays down principles afterwards accepted by it (Acts 15:7-11).

Logically someone HAD TO BE IN CHARGE. Why not Peter?**

As for “Infallibility”; student that you are I’m sure you know its very limited use has been only for Church Dogma’s. And the Issues taught that MUST be held are confined to Faith Beliefs and Morals… Secualr History alone confirms the papacy *. IF Christ had not intended to have His One Church fulfill His Command of Mt. 28:16-20; addressed precisely and exclusively to the Apostles Jesus woulod have intended for everything to die with the Apostles.

Either the Bible is an Inspired by God Book or there is seemingly no hope for anyones salvation unless God chooses to infuse knowlede into EVERYONE [he CAN’T pick favorites].

John.14: 26 “But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you. “ … **John.20:21-22 **"Jesus said to them again, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I send you.” [WITH MY OWN Powers and Authority. SEE *Mt. 10:1-8] And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them, "Receive the Holy Spirit. Acts.1: 2 “until the day when he was taken up, after he had given commandment through the Holy Spirit to the apostles whom he had chosen”

AND Only Peter and the Apostles [Peters Leadership is indispuitable from Chirst viewpoint] have Both the HS and Christ HIMSELF as WARRANTY of Mother Churchs Teaching Truths. THAT POINT IS CRITIAL UNDERSTANDING: IT IS THE CHUCH NOT THE POPE MAKING THESE PROCLAIMATIONS

John 17: 15-19 "I [Jesus / God] do not pray that thou shouldst take them [my apostles] out of the world, but that thou shouldst keep them from the evil one. … Sanctify them in the truth; thy word is truth. As thou didst send me into the world, so I have sent them into the world. [With My Powers and Authority REAd Mt. 10:1-8] **And for their sake I consecrate myself,[Jesus /God] that they also may be consecrated in truth. ** Taht my friend is a WOW! "They also applies to the Successors that MUST follow in order to complete the MANDATE of Mt. 28.

As always Jon, I have enjoyed talking with you again.

God’s continued Blessings,

pat /PJM

 

[PJM]

=jlhargus;9363607]I’ve use this also, of course they come back and give the standard WT answers. I just keep repeating who is speaking, who is coming, who was pierced, who is the Alpha and Omega? We never really know what gets through to them when it comes to the end of the day. We can only leave it up to the Holy Spirit to pierce their hearts.

ALL THINGS in charity

Our Job is:

1. To Know the truth
2. To Live the truth
3. To share it WHEN God’s gives us the opportunity
4. STEP back and let God DO HIS JOB; with is Conversions of mind, harts and souls. Faith; TRUE Faith is exclusively HIS GIFT to give.

God Bless,
pat /PJM

 

[JonNC]

Pat,
Let me see if i can answer your question.

=PJM;9363861]Hi again Jon,

I’m puzzled why this issue is such an issue with you?

One cannot dispuite that Peter is the Leadership choice of Christ. Mt. 10;1-8; Mt. 16:19-20; Mt. 28: 16-20… and I have a document showing 50 Peter FIRST from the Bible that I can send to you. If NOT Peter, who?

It really depends on what one means by leadership. As I said before, I can accept the important leadership role Peter plays, particularly after Pentecost. But keep in mind that Christ also warned the disciples not to have a “pecking order”, as it were. Additionally, the council in Acts seems to be overseen more by James than by Peter. Paul, too, is very clear in his criticism of Peter.

More importantly, however, is what the nature of that leadership is in the post-apostolic Church. Assuming that the Bishop of Rome is the continuation of Peter’s chair, is it one of primacy, as in a “first among equals”, or one of supremacy?

***God who is PERFECT can’t misspeak. ***
Agreed, but I don’t believe it is an issue of disputing God’s perfection.

I acknowledge the scriptures you provided.

Logically someone HAD TO BE IN CHARGE. Why not Peter?

Again, not questioning a level of “in-charge” that is conferred to Peter, though it isn’t total.

As for “Infallibility”; student that you are I’m sure you know its very limited use has been only for Church Dogma’s. And the Issues taught that MUST be held are confined to Faith Beliefs and Morals

Yes, that’s why I included the operative term, ex cathedra. Oddly for a western non-Catholic, my biggest issue with it is it was determined outside a truly ecumenical council.
What’s more, I question supremacy based as much on Nicea as scripture. But to be sure, it seems the issue needs to be resolved between Rome and the East. I’m willing to accept that determination.

… Secualr History alone confirms the papacy . IF Christ had not intended to have His One Church fulfill His Command of Mt. 28:16-20; addressed precisely and exclusively to the Apostles Jesus woulod have intended for everything to die with the Apostles.
No problem with the Great Commission.

Either the Bible is an Inspired by God Book or there is seemingly no hope for anyones salvation unless God chooses to infuse knowlede into EVERYONE [he CAN’T pick favorites].

John.14: 26

“But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you. “ … **John.20:21-22 **"Jesus said to them again, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I send you.” [WITH MY OWN Powers and Authority. SEE **Mt. 10:1-8] And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them, "Receive the Holy Spirit. Acts.1: 2 “until the day when he was taken up, after he had given commandment through the Holy Spirit to the apostles whom he had chosen”

AND Only Peter and the Apostles [Peters Leadership is indispuitable from Chirst viewpoint] have Both the HS and Christ HIMSELF as WARRANTY of Mother Churchs Teaching Truths. THAT POINT IS CRITIAL UNDERSTANDING: IT IS THE CHUCH NOT THE POPE MAKING THESE PROCLAIMATIONS

John 17: 15-19 "I [Jesus / God] do not pray that thou shouldst take them [my apostles] out of the world, but that thou shouldst keep them from the evil one. … Sanctify them in the truth; thy word is truth. As thou didst send me into the world, so I have sent them into the world. [With My Powers and Authority REAd Mt. 10:1-8] And for their sake I consecrate myself,[Jesus /God] that they also may be consecrated in truth. Taht my friend is a WOW! "They also applies to the Successors that MUST follow in order to complete the MANDATE of Mt. 28.

See, Pat, from my perspective, as a lowly, simple non-Catholic, non-Orthodox Christian, which communion does this apply to (rhetorical question, as I know how you, my friend will answer )? So, I believe these verses apply to the entire Church, the congregation of saints, where the word is preached and the sacraments administered.

As always Jon, I have enjoyed talking with you again.

God’s continued Blessings,

The pleasure is always mine.
And His blessings also with you,
Jon

 

[PJM]

=JonNC;9364048]Pat,
Let me see if i can answer your question.

It really depends on what one means by leadership. As I said before, I can accept the important leadership role Peter plays, particularly after Pentecost. But keep in mind that Christ also warned the disciples not to have a “pecking order”, as it were. Additionally, the council in Acts seems to be overseen more by James than by Peter. Paul, too, is very clear in his criticism of Peter.

More importantly, however, is what the nature of that leadership is in the post-apostolic Church. Assuming that the Bishop of Rome is the continuation of Peter’s chair, is it one of primacy, as in a “first among equals”, or one of supremacy?

Agreed, but I don’t believe it is an issue of disputing God’s perfection.

I acknowledge the scriptures you provided.

Again, not questioning a level of “in-charge” that is conferred to Peter, though it isn’t total.

Yes, that’s why I included the operative term, ex cathedra. Oddly for a western non-Catholic, my biggest issue with it is it was determined outside a truly ecumenical council.
What’s more, I question supremacy based as much on Nicea as scripture. But to be sure, it seems the issue needs to be resolved between Rome and the East. I’m willing to accept that determination.

No problem with the Great Commission.

See, Pat, from my perspective, as a lowly, simple non-Catholic, non-Orthodox Christian, which communion does this apply to (rhetorical question, as I know how you, my friend will answer )? So, I believe these verses apply to the entire Church, the congregation of saints, where the word is preached and the sacraments administered.

The pleasure is always mine.
And His blessings also with you,
Jon

As always Jon, your post are celar and concise. THANKS,

IMO whta is being over looked here is the Consistany of God. Throughout the OT God chose “A man” SINGULAR to be His voice. Why would this change with the indispuitable appointment of Peter:shrug:

Secondly is the issue of “Infallibility”. While the “Pope” gets the balme or credit??? It is actually Christ THROUGH His Church and His Persoanl warranty that is speaking.

“The gate of hell shall not previal” is a statement of FACT. Tie that in with John 17:15-19 and the “picture” ought to be clear [er]

As I believe I have shared with you before my friend: Conversions are God’s turf. I just share His message.

As for the GREAT Schism: the East LEFT the west, not the other way around:thumbsup:

God Bless you,

pat /PJM