Is the justice of Hell accepted on faith?

  • Thread starter Thread starter Ana_v
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
thistle said:
Those who end up in Hell have condemned themselves. God does not send anyone to Hell.
Click to expand...
Isn’t God the judge of the sinner’s life? And isn’t it the judge that decides the sentence for the sinner?
 
Ana_v said:
Isn’t God the judge of the sinner’s life? And isn’t it the judge that decides the sentence for the sinner?
Click to expand...
Everyone who is in Hell has freely chosen to go there by dying in a state of mortal sin and rejecting God’s love.
He gave us free will to choose him or Hell. God does not send anyone to Hell.

There is no chance to repent after death. The state of your soul at death determines your destination (Hell or Salvation).
 
Last edited:
Ana_v said:
It is said that the articles of faith cannot be demonstrated to be true through reason. They are known only through Divine Revelation and must be accepted on faith.

It is also said that, while not rationally demonstrable or provable, these articles of faith can be shown to not contradict reason.
Click to expand...
I think I would say that rational arguments cannot compel one to believe, but they support the articles of faith as reasonable for belief.
Ana_v said:
Is this an example of a teaching that is rationally demonstrable or must it be accepted on faith?
Click to expand...
🤣
For those who believe it, I’m betting they’d say it’s “rationally demonstrable”. For those who do not, I’d bet they’d say “it can only be accepted on faith.”
🤣
 
laylow said:
One must admit this works the other way around as well. For example, a teacher hitting another teacher is more serious than a 2nd grader hitting another 2nd grader, since it should be assumed that the teacher has more knowledge and responsibility than the 2nd grader.
Click to expand...
That’s a different principle in operation. @Ana_v was pointing out that offenses against greater authority carry greater penalties; you’re pointing out that those who are more culpable for their decisions are likewise more culpable for the penalties these actions bring.
 
Gorgias said:
you’re pointing out that those who are more culpable for their decisions are likewise more culpable for the penalties these actions bring.
Click to expand...
I would argue that their ability to be more culpable is what attains them authority. How else is authority earned?
 
Divine Justice is “restorative justice,” not retributive justice."

God doesn’t send people to hell, they end up their by their own rejection of God.

God’s desire is for salvation for all souls, which is why He came to us in Jesus Christ.

Jim
 
JimR-OCDS said:
Divine Justice is “restorative justice,” not retributive justice."

God doesn’t send people to hell, they end up their by their own rejection of God.

God’s desire is for salvation for all souls, which is why He came to us in Jesus Christ.

Jim
Click to expand...
Pretty difficult to be restored if you are sitting in hell with the door locked.
 
As Julian of Norwich was told by the Lord, in the end, all will be made right

Some believe that even those in hell will be brought out

Don’t think hell is a cake walk however

There is great suffering for souls not knowing God when they die

Jim
 
laylow said:
I would argue that their ability to be more culpable is what attains them authority. How else is authority earned?
Click to expand...
The ‘teacher as teacher and 2nd-grader as 2nd-grader’ example that you bring up isn’t one that hinges on authority; it’s one that hinges on personal accountability. It works equally validly and without distinction if you posited “garbage collector” or “POTUS” in place of teacher. ‘Authority’ doesn’t come into play in this example.
 
Gorgias said:
The ‘teacher as teacher and 2nd-grader as 2nd-grader’ example that you bring up isn’t one that hinges on authority ; it’s one that hinges on personal accountability . It works equally validly and without distinction if you posited “garbage collector” or “POTUS” in place of teacher. ‘Authority’ doesn’t come into play in this example.
Click to expand...
Depends on what is meant by authority and in what context. The POTUS has no authority in an Armageddon situation where there is only a small bit of food left and its survival of the fitness. That is organized authority. Some authority transcends any organization. I have more authority than a small child (unless he is yielding a gun and knows how to use it).
 
On the same grounds that God sent Jesus to us, while we were yet sinners

He did so, not to change His mind about us, but to change our minds about Him

Jim
 
JimR-OCDS said:
As Julian of Norwich was told by the Lord, in the end, all will be made right
Click to expand...
Nice one! You’re the first I’ve seen on CAF appeal to this reference. I first came across it in Von Balthasar’s book on this topic.
JimR-OCDS said:
Some believe that even those in hell will be brought out

Don’t think hell is a cake walk however
Click to expand...
This is precisely what I’ve discovered about those who advocate any form of apokatastasis or universalism, at least among the church’s great intellectuals (e.g., Gregory of Nyssa, Origen, Maximus the Confessor). Even though they advocated that all will return to God in the end, nevertheless the suffering/torment of hell will have been immense. And even the final state of those brought back to God in such a state may only be a connection to God via knowledge of Him (rather than participation in any of His heavenly gifts).

As you say, no cake walk…
 
Christ descended into “Hell” and is therefore close to those cast into it, transforming their darkness into light. Suffering and torment is still terrible and well- nigh unbearable. Yet the star of hope has risen—the anchor of the heart reaches the very throne of God. Instead of evil being unleashed within man, the light shines victorious: suffering—without ceasing to be suffering—becomes, despite everything, a hymn of praise.
Click to expand...
Pope Benedict XVI, Encyclical, Spe Salvi Spe salvi (November 30, 2007) | BENEDICT XVI

Jim
 
Jesus told us that Every sin will be forgiven accept Blaspheme of the Holy Spirit.
So there we have it, forewarning and for those that continue in their sin of Blaspheme will go to Hell.

The Potter will do what he likes with his own clay after all Cain walked free from his brothers murder as the blood cried out to God and so on with the world of the bible telling us about murders etc like Moses who did not go to hell for that sin but for taking the glory from God when he watered the people! So murder is forgiven, lust and so on also but Blasphemy will cost you eternity in Hell.
and we know that giving the Glory of God to another is Blasphemy.
That’s why the Divine Mercy is so important today.
hope that helps somewhat.
 
laylow said:
Depends on what is meant by authority and in what context.
Click to expand...
Agreed. In the context of the initial example, it was about directly assaulting a person in authority qua his role as an authority. In yours, it was just comparing an adult’s culpability to a child’s.
 
sevenswords said:
So there we have it, forewarning and for those that continue in their sin of Blaspheme will go to Hell.
Click to expand...
CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA Divine Providence explains;

“His wisdom He so orders all events within the universe that the end for which it was created may be realized.

He directs all, even evil and sin itself, to the final end for which the universe was created.”

Evil He converts into good (Genesis 1:20; cf. Psalm 90:10); and suffering He uses as an instrument whereby to train men up as a father traineth up his children (Deuteronomy 8:1-6; Psalm 65:2-10;

Nor would God permit evil at all, unless He could draw good out of evil (St. Augustine, “Enchir.”, xi in “P.L.”, LX, 236; “Serm.”

Evil, therefore, ministers to God’s design (St. Gregory the Great, op. cit., VI, xxxii in “P.L.”,

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12510a.htm

.
311 For almighty God, . . . because he is supremely good, would never allow any evil whatsoever to exist in his works if he were not so all-powerful and good as to cause good to emerge from evil itself.177

324 Faith gives us the certainty that God would not permit an evil if he did not cause a good to come from that very evil, by ways that we shall fully know only in eternal life.

.
As we see above:

He so orders all events within the universe.

He directs all, even evil and sin itself.

God would not permit an evil/ sin if He could not cause a good to come from that very evil.
.
God in the Book of Jonah promised forty days destruction and hell for all ninevites, yet at the end of the forty days God provided universal salvation to the ninevites.

.
"For Augustine says (De Civ. Dei v, 1) that the Divine will or power is called fate.
But the Divine will or power is not in creatures, but in God.
Therefore fate is not in creatures but in God.

The Divine will is cause of all things that happens, as Augustine says (De Trin. iii, 1 seqq.). Therefore all things are subject to fate."
.
If my fate would be in me, I would be worry about my destiny.

I know our fate is in God, His duty of care is to take all of us up to heaven.

Our duty of care is to do our best by the cause of His graces.

We are like clay in God’s hands, God forms us the way He likes.

We are the way God formed us, we are CAN NOT be different.

We do INFALLIBLY and FREELY exactly what God CAUSES us to do. – He so orders all events within the universe, for the final end for which the universe was created, CCC 301; 308; etc.
.
God bless
 
Last edited:
thistle said:
Those who end up in Hell have condemned themselves. God does not send anyone to Hell.
Click to expand...
How have they condemned themselves to Hell? Hell is a punishment.

Do you think that the slanderer wishes to be punished eternally for his slander?
 
Last edited:
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top