Is the justice of Hell accepted on faith?

[Ana_v]

For those who believe it, I’m betting they’d say it’s “rationally demonstrable”. For those who do not, I’d bet they’d say “it can only be accepted on faith.”

Ah, but I want to distinguish between the existence of Hell,
and the justice of Hell.

It is one thing to disbelieve that Hell exists vis a vis atheism, for example.

It is another to believe that, if there be a Hell, it is a gross injustice.

The theist may well concede that the existence of Hell is not demonstrable on the basis of reason alone.

And the atheist may well concede that the existence of Hell is not disprovable on the basis of reason alone.

But both seem to be convinced that they can make a strong case for the justice or injustice of Hell (the concept).

After all, within our own social order, we have a criminal justice system, and yet as citizens we can widely disagree on the manner in which justice should be executed within that system, e.g. should people be imprisoned for possession of marijuana? Should it be a felony? Etc. Etc.

 

[thistle]

How have they condemned themselves to Hell? Hell is a punishment.

Do you think that the slanderer wishes to be punished eternally for his slander?

God gave them free will. They chose to reject God’s love thereby choosing to go to Hell because they did not want to spend eternity with God.

 

[Ana_v]

God gave them free will. They chose to reject God’s love thereby choosing to go to Hell because they did not want to spend eternity with God.

A few years ago, I asked two Catholic professors - one a philosopher, the other a theologian - if the Gospel message boils down to this: “Love me or Burn” ?

The philosopher, a Thomist, said he was willing to bite that bullet, and accept that phrasing.

The theologian, a non-Thomist, said no.

 

[AlmaRedemptorisMater]

Justice based on whose viewpoint? Even the idea of justice or injustice is inconceivable apart from the Creator. Your proposed statement of “Love Me or burn” already presupposes a sense of injustice. I would lean more to the Thomist answer, while saying if that statement were true then is must be just.

 

[Latin]

THIS IS THE GOSPEL MESSAGE BOILS DOWN TO

GOD CAUSES/ ORDERS EVERY EVENT IN THE UNIVERSE, INCLUDES OUR WILLING AND OUR ACHIEVEMENT.
.
310 With infinite wisdom and goodness God freely willed to create this world in a state of journeying towards its ultimate perfection, 314 through the dramas of evil and sin. – So, God CREATED in this world the dramas of evil and sin, for OUR BENEFIT.

.
Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma by Ludwig Ott.

Fallen man cannot redeem himself. (De fide.) – It is God’s responsibility to save ALL OF US.

Without the special help of God the justified cannot persevere to the end in justification. (De fide.) – It is God’s responsibility TO KEEP US SAVED by his Gift of Perseverance.
.
308 The truth that God is at work in all the actions of his creatures is inseparable from faith in God the Creator.
God is the first cause who operates in and through secondary causes: For God is at work in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.
.
There is a supernatural intervention of God in the faculties of the soul, which precedes the free act of the will. (De fide.)

2022; “The divine initiative in the work of grace precedes, prepares, and elicits the free response of man. …”

God effects everything, the willing and the achievement. … (Thomas Aquinas, S. Th.II/II 4, 4 ad 3).
.
He so orders all events within the universe, for the final end for which the universe was created, CCC 301; 308; etc.

We do INFALLIBLY and FREELY exactly what God CAUSES us to do, CCC 307; etc.
.
324 Faith gives us the certainty that God would not permit an evil if he did not cause a good to come from that very evil, by ways that we shall fully know only in eternal life.

.
CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA Divine Providence explains.

This, the beneficent purpose of an all-seeing Providence, is wholly gratuitous, entirely unmerited (Romans 3:24; 9:11-2).

It extends to all men (Romans 2:10; 1 Timothy 2:4), even to the reprobate Jews (Romans 11:26 sq.); and by it all God’s dealings with man are regulated (Ephesians 1:11).

It extends to every individual, adapting itself to the needs of each (St. John Chrysostom, “Hom. xxviii in Matt.”, n. 3 in “P.G.”, LVII, 354).

That end is that all creatures should manifest the glory of God, and in particular that man should glorify Him, recognizing in nature the work of His hand, serving Him in obedience and love, and thereby attaining to the full development of his nature and to eternal happiness in God.

Nor would God permit evil at all, unless He could draw good out of evil (St. Augustine, “Enchir.”, xi in “P.L.”, LX, 236; “Serm.”

Evil, therefore, ministers to God’s design (St. Gregory the Great, op. cit., VI, xxxii in “P.L.”,

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12510a.htm
.
God bless

 

[thistle]

A few years ago, I asked two Catholic professors - one a philosopher, the other a theologian - if the Gospel message boils down to this: “Love me or Burn” ?

The philosopher, a Thomist, said he was willing to bite that bullet, and accept that phrasing.

The theologian, a non-Thomist, said no.

It is not what an individual says that matters. The only thing that matters are the teachings of the Church which are backed by the full authority of God.

 

[sevenswords]

Hello and God bless you too, I was looking around to find opinions on this subject and I found clear teaching in Wiki when they reference the Catholic teaching. I will link it if you want to read it.

Eternal sin - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

I think it explains well the doctrine and besides we have Our Mother in Fatima tell us many souls go to Hell.
Hope you get something from it.

 

[Latin]

…

CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: EVIL
“We cannot say without denying the Divine omnipotence, that another equally perfect universe could not be created in which evil would have no place.”

www.newadvent.org/cathen/05649a.htm
.
310 But why did God not create a world so perfect that no evil could exist in it?
With infinite wisdom and goodness God freely willed to create a world in a state of journeying towards its ultimate perfection, 314 through the dramas of evil and sin. – So He had to CREATE in this world the dramas of evil and sin.

As we see above, if sin would be contrary to the purpose and intention of God He would created this world in which evil would have no place.

God willed and created in this world the dramas of evil and sin for good reason, to convert our sins into greater good, which is to make us well informed, battle-hardened glorified saints.
.
311 For almighty God, . . . because he is supremely good, would never allow any evil whatsoever to exist in his works if he were not so all-powerful and good as to cause good to emerge from evil itself.177

324 Faith gives us the certainty that God would not permit an evil if he did not cause a good to come from that very evil, by ways that we shall fully know only in eternal life.
.
As we see above Sevenswords, God not only not permit an eternal sin, He wouldn’t even permit a smallest act of sin without He could convert it into a greater good, which is to make us well informed, battle-hardened glorified saints.

.
FURTHERMORE, OUR SALVATION IS GOD’S RESPONSIBILITY, OF COURSE AS GOD CAUSES US TO COOPERATE, WE ALL FREELY AND INALLIBLY COOPERATE WITH HIS GRACES.

Fallen man cannot redeem himself. (De fide.) – It is God’s responsibility to save ALL OF US.
.
Without the special help of God the justified cannot persevere to the end in justification. (De fide.) – It is God’s responsibility TO KEEP US SAVED by his Gift of Perseverance.

As we see above, in anyone would end up in hell, would end up in hell because of God’s neglect of His duty of care.

Plain and simple, we CAN NOT save ourselves and we CAN NOT keep ourselves saved, they are both God’s responsibility. – CATHOLIC DE FIDE DOGMAS.

God bless

 

[Gorgias]

Ah, but I want to distinguish between the existence of Hell,
and the justice of Hell.

That’s a distinction without a difference, I’d say. My assertion would still hold for that context, as well.

It is another to believe that, if there be a Hell, it is a gross injustice.

But, there will still be those who argue for that position from a rational point of view (as well as those who argue that it can only be taken as a point of faith). So… same situation, right?

The theist may well concede that the existence of Hell is not demonstrable on the basis of reason alone.

That’s why debates are so useless – they come down to the skill of the debater, not the truth of the issue debated. If an arbitrary theist concedes a point, does that mean that the concession is reasonable and logical?

After all, within our own social order, we have a criminal justice system, and yet as citizens we can widely disagree on the manner in which justice should be executed within that system, e.g. should people be imprisoned for possession of marijuana? Should it be a felony? Etc. Etc.

Not sure of the relevance of this observation. The fact that we as humans can’t decide on temporal justice doesn’t imply that God is likewise discombobulated on the notion of eternal justice…

 

[sevenswords]

Hello, we can loose our eternal salvation by rejecting God’s mercy as Paul says work out your salvation in trembling and fear. Christ was rejected and those that rejected him are still able to be saved through Mercy. But those that reject the Holy Spirit can not be saved, Christ in his human form can be rejected but in his divine form he can not be, hence he told us all will be forgiven accept Blasphemy.
Once saved always saved is not a Catholic dogma, The Catholic church has stated that there is no salvation out side of the Church, simply because this is where the sacraments are.
Jesus said" I have not come for the world but for those my father has given me"
So what I’m saying to keep it short is that God has a duty of care to his children, but it is determined by our response to his call of healing and forgiveness, otherwise why did Christ die the most painful death of any man? It is with Christ in us we are saved, by his works and his wounds we are saved, but we are free to reject this offer, hence the duty of care is no longer valid.
To add we have many Saints who have spoke of the heart of Jesus being ripped in two because souls reject his offer of salvation and die in their sin, also Fatima and the like where we are told souls go to hell because there is no one to pray for them, so we see that salvation is determined on how we play our part and how much we become like Christ to fight the evil and fight for the souls who have rejected him, that is part of Gods salvation. We have to remember his Justice also!.
So salvation is not guaranteed and is determined by our cooperation with the divine plan and souls who blaspheme God will not be forgiven and if they are not forgiven they can not be saved from the torments of hell. It is better to enter heaven with one eye than burn for eternity with two.
God bless.

 

[Vico]

Ana_v:

Isn’t God the judge of the sinner’s life? And isn’t it the judge that decides the sentence for the sinner?

Everyone who is in Hell has freely chosen to go there by dying in a state of mortal sin and rejecting God’s love.
He gave us free will to choose him or Hell. God does not send anyone to Hell.

There is no chance to repent after death. The state of your soul at death determines your destination (Hell or Salvation).

There is also the case where no free will decision is made, such as unbaptized infants and those that never attain the use of reason. For them the Church can only offer hope not certainty, although theologians speculate that they attain natural peace with no Beatific Vision.

For adults with reason, baptism of water, desire, or blood will achieve salvation in combination with final penitence if there are other mortal sins.

 

[otjm]

Your level of causation is a far more sophisticated explanation of what both I and thistle said. To try to explain it to people who have little or no background in theology is to miss the practical point.

And not to belabor the practical point, but many people whave a major problem with their concept of God as a vengeful, uncaring distant figure, one in whom they have serious struggles believing. The seem to equate a conscious choice for evil with the term “mistake”, and do not see why hell is the answer.

I am nowhere near a St. Thomas scholar, but I deal with people on a fairly regular basis including RCIA and Catholics Returning Home programs, as well as others.

This is not to pick a bone with you, but simply to put the conversation in “real world” terms. There is no way I am going to try to explain St. Thomas to a neophyte in moral theology.

However St. Thomas gets to the point, the bottom line for the neophyte is they are moral agents; they make choices, and hell is a choice they can make.

Deut. 30:19: “… I have set before you life and death, the blessing and the curse. Choose life, then, that you and your descendants may live…”

None of that is an indication you are wrong’ but rather that a much simpler explanation can be made in terms which people who are not sophisticated can understand.

 

[Latin]

…

When I read your post Otjm I realised, this is exactly about I use to believe when I was an Evangelical Protestant.

I use to show others Deut.30:19 to prove we can choose heaven or hell, I use to believe heaven or hell is our choice.
.
Four years ago I started my RCIA study, they taught God saves everyone, they also taught the Diversity of Religions is Willed by God and every religion designed/ planned and created by God, as God designed/ planned and He directs every event in the Universe to the final end for which the universe was created.

At that time I use to believe, hell is our choice, many people choose it and every other religions apart from Christianity is created by the devil.

So, I was outraged because of the teachings but I knew my place and I acted as a good RCIA student should act.

Soon after I became a Catholic, in my area a Catholic Priest started in a kind of seminar formation to teach God saves every human person.

Of course I didn’t attend in his seminar but I decided I study Catholic Soteriology and when I will have the knowledge I will confront him that he is teaching heresy.
.
So, I started to study Catholic Soteriology from the Catechism, Catholic Encyclopedias, Grace, Predestination, and the Salvific Will of God by Fr. Most, The Mystery of Predestination by John Salza, etc.

After several month of study, I start to think that Priest might be correct, I strongly rejected it, I still strongly believed hell or heaven is our choice.
.
After more then a year study and a lot of prayers [in my words and by the gift of tongues (1 Cor.12:10; 1 Cor.14:2, 14-15)], Catholic Soteriology finally won, I realized that Catholic Priest in the seminar does not teaching heresy.
.
I don’t blame anyone who believe, we can choose heaven or hell.

Before I studied Catholic Soteriology I believed the same thing, now I KNOW, we neither can chose hell nor heaven, heaven is strictly GOD’S CHOICE.

.
308 The truth that God is at work in all the actions of his creatures.
God is the first cause who operates in and through secondary causes:
"For God is at work in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure."171
Far from diminishing the creature’s dignity, this truth enhances it.
.
There is a supernatural intervention of God in the faculties of the soul, which precedes the free act of the will. (De fide.)
.
CCCS 1996-1998; This call to eternal life is supernatural, coming TOTALLY from God’s decision and surpassing ALL power of human intellect and will.”

2022; “The divine initiative in the work of grace precedes, prepares, and elicits the free response of man. …”

John 15:16; You did not chose Me, but I chose you.
.
Acts 13:48; … as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.
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OUR SALVATION IS GOD’S RESPONSIBILITY, HIS DUTY OF CARE.
.
God bless

 

[Vico]

…

Catechism

1037 God predestines no one to go to hell; 618 for this, a willful turning away from God (a mortal sin) is necessary, and persistence in it until the end. …

618 Cf. Council of Orange II (529): DS 397; Council of Trent (1547):1567.

 

[otjm]

The short of you commentary is your reference to CCCS 2022: "precedes, prepares, and elicits a free response.

I believe it was Hans Urs von Balthasar who was edging around the question of salvation, and I would refer to his book Dare We Hope That All Men Be Saved. Some would declare he was a Universalist, but he was not. Nor did he say that salvation for all is assured. In short, he said “We don’t know”.

There are ample references in the Gospels to damnation that it is a topic one hould tread with at least a bit of caution.

And the alternative - that all are saved - flies in the face of free will. If all are going to be saved, then there is no sense whatsoever in any moral creed. Aside from the logic of it, that does not match my gut reaction to evil.

To make a really short comment, decades ago I was the defense attorney for a rapist. If anyone ever would ask me if I have come face to face with pure evil, I would immediately think back to him. I am not going to get into an argument over his salvation; that is God’s problem (and hopefully, he faced that judgement day before he assaulted anyone else).

To say with assuredness that we do not have free will goes against Church teaching, at least as I was taught. Further, it makes no sense from my life experiences (and I have 73 of those).

Is it possible that on the moment of personal judgement, an individual who has clearly rejected God in his/her life, can be given one last opportunity to accept the Good and reject the Evil? I have no problem with that; but if there is a choice. then the alternative must also be a reality. Either that, or it makes a complete farce out of just about everything Christ taught, out of any moral code (and those are constant to a greater or lesser degree in any human society subset, as in, any human sense of right and wrong - including all religions [and I do not consider devil worship to be a religion]), and most people’s innate sense of “right” and “wrong”. If, even at the personal judgement, one cannot reject God, then it even challenges the concept of “God-ness”.

The bottom line is that nothing you have quoted proves my point wrong. Either free will is real - we have the freedom to choose the Good or the Evil - or we are reduced to mere puppets. I don’t believe in a vengeful God, one who plays :Gotcha!". Nor do I believe in a so-merciful God that it really doesn’t matter what I choose; somehow in the end I will do a complete about face and be saved.

You were not there sitting in the courtroom representing a young teenage girl who was raped repeatedly by her father (now in prison, and in the courtroom) when her mother took the stand and denied that any sexual activity had ever occurred, and in the next moment looked at her daughter and said "You whore!’.

I could go on… sorry, I don’t buy Universalism. Either we truly have the ability to choose, or it is all a farce. And I don’t believe it is a farce. IF we have a “free response”, then the alternative must be a reality, or it is not free.

 

[Latin]

…

When we reading the Scripture we see in parallel two lines of teachings, only a few people saved and the other line is all people saved (Eph.1:10 -11; Col.1:20; etc.).
.
The best way to find out it is really a few people saved or all people saved is to study the Soteriology of the Catholic Church.

.
OUR UNAIDED FREE WILL IS ONLY GOOD FOR LYING AND SIN

The Council of Sens (1140) condemned the idea that free will is sufficient in itself for any good. Donez., 373.

Council of Orange (529)
In canon 20, entitled hat Without God Man Can Do No Good. . . Denz., 193; quoting St. Prosper.

In canon 22, says, “ No one has anything of his own except lying and sin. Denz., 194; quoting St. Prosper.

.
FALLEN/ UNSAVED MAN DOES NOT HAVE A FREE WILL TO CHOOSE TO BE SAVED

Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma by Ludwig Ott,

Fallen man cannot redeem himself. (De fide.) – It is God’s responsibility to save ALL OF US.
.
Without the special help of God the justified cannot persevere to the end in justification. (De fide.) – It is God’s responsibility TO KEEP US SAVED by his Gift of Perseverance.

For every salutary act internal supernatural grace of God (gratia elevans) is absolutely necessary. (De fide.)

.
John 6:44; No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them.

While St. Thomas says that man turns to God by his own free will, he explains that free-will can only be turn to God, when God turns it.

CCCS 1996-1998; This call to eternal life is supernatural, coming TOTALLY from God’s decision and surpassing ALL power of human intellect and will.”
.
As we see above, God saves EVERYONE whom He wants to save, it is HIS DECISION not our decision , and He CAUSES us to cooperate and we all freely and infallibly cooperate.
.
St. Thomas teaches that God effects everything, the willing and the achievement. S. Th.II/II 4, 4 ad 3:

.
Hence if this divine influence stopped, every operation would stop.
Every operation, therefore, of anything is traced back to Him as its cause. (Summa Contra Gentiles, Book III.)
.
As we see above: Our free will is aided free will (we choose God wills us to choose), we DO NOT have an independent free will without God, without God we can do NOTHING, we cannot even will anything.
.
308 God is the first cause who operates in and through secondary causes:
"For God is at work in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.
Far from diminishing the creature’s dignity, this truth enhances it.

This is the correct understanding of our free ability to choose, God enlightens our mind and we freely choose the act willed by God.
.
We don’t have an independent free will without God.

There is a supernatural intervention of God in the faculties of the soul, which precedes the free act of the will. (De fide.)

2022; “The divine initiative in the work of grace precedes, prepares, and elicits the free response of man. …”
.
God bless

 

[Latin]

1037 God predestines no one to go to hell; 618 for this, a willful turning away from God (a mortal sin) is necessary, and persistence in it until the end.

IN THE MYSTERY OF PREDESTINATION John Salza explains;

“God guides all his creatures with wisdom and love to their ultimate end.

Because God’s providence governs all things, God is in control of all things and can do all things.

If humans have an intellect and free will, then why is it necessary for God to order us to our final end?

The answer: because God created heaven as our final end, and attaining heaven is above our nature and the nature of every creature.

The Catechism also states, “The vocation to eternal life is supernatural … It surpasses the power of human intellect and will, as that of every other creature.

Because man cannot attain to eternal life by his own natural efforts, he must be predestined to that end by God.

Because we cannot attain the Beatific Vision by the power of our nature, God must direct us to this end by His power and grace.

God grants the efficacious grace of perseverance only to His elect.

Thus, predestination is a certain and infallible truth, revealed by Scripture and taught by the Catholic Church.”

.
Did you notice above Vico? God grants the efficacious grace of perseverance only to His elect. – Please keep it in mind.

.
CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA Predestination of the elect
ante prævisa merita
“THIS THEORY, CHAMPIONED BY all Thomists and a few Molinists (as Bellarmine, Francisco Suárez, Francis de Lugo):

Asserts that God, by an absolute decree and without regard to any future supernatural merits, predestined from all eternity certain men to the glory of heaven, and then, in consequence of this decree, decided to give them all the graces necessary for its accomplishment.”
.
As described above. God granted the efficacious grace of perseverance only to His elect.

Without the special help of God the justified cannot persevere to the end in justification. (De fide.) – It is God’s responsibility TO KEEP US SAVED by His Gift of Perseverance (this is an INFALLIBLE protection of the elect), without it everyone dies in the state of mortal sin.
.
Please remember Vico, God granted the efficacious grace of perseverance only to His elect, so EVERYONE else bound to die in the state of mortal sin.
.
As we see above, it is NOT the death in the mortal sin decides who goes to heaven or hell, but God’s predestination to heaven decides who will not and who will dies in mortal sin.

Those who are not predestined to heaven, they are all bound to die in mortal sin.

There is a supernatural intervention of God in the faculties of the soul, which precedes the free act of the will. (De fide.)

CCCS 1996-1998; This call to eternal life is supernatural, coming TOTALLY from God’s decision and surpassing ALL power of human intellect and will.”

John 15:16; You did not chose Me, but I chose you.

Acts 13:48; … as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.
.
God bless

 

[Vico]

…
Did you notice above Vico? God grants the efficacious grace of perseverance only to His elect. – Please keep it in mind.

…

Those who are not predestined to heaven, they are all bound to die in mortal sin.

Yes, and also God gives sufficient grace to all such that the person can prevent his own salvation through free will because God has given the permission for the human free will choice. So this will is permissive not active and because of that God is not responsible for a person’s damnation, and also a person is partly responsible for salvation, because efficacious grace is not irresistible.

Catholic Encylopedia:

Owing to the infallible decisions laid down by the Church, every orthodox theory on predestination and reprobation must keep within the limits marked out by the following theses:

• (a) At least in the order of execution in time (in ordine executionis) the meritorious works of the predestined are the partial cause of their eternal happiness;
• (b) hell cannot even in the order of intention (in ordine intentionis) have been positively decreed to the damned, even though it is inflicted on them in time as the just punishment of their misdeeds;
• (c) there is absolutely no predestination to sin as a means to eternal damnation.

Pohle, J. (1911). Predestination. In The Catholic Encyclopedia. New York: Robert Appleton Company. http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12378a.htm

 

[goout]

Yes.
The Good News is that of salvation. We are freed from bondage and can choose our destiny. We can be “made well” by saying yes to God’s kingdom in Jesus Christ. We do not have a god-of-philosophy, we have the Word Made Flesh, who became man that we might live like he did. Living like Him asks for a human decision, a choice.

“The glory of God is a human being fully alive”. Hearing, seeing, discerning, responding with free decision.
If nothing else, Christ offers us a choice. Slaves don’t have that choice; only those who choose His liberation in love.

 

[otjm]

CCC:
1861: "Mortal sin is the radical possibility of human freedom, as is love itself… If it is not redeemed by repentance and God’s forgiveness, it causes exclusion from God’s kingdom and the eternal death of hell, for our freedom as the power to make choices forever, with no turning back. However, although we can judge that an act is in itself a grave offense, we must entrust judgement of persons to the justice and mercy of God.

1037: God predestines no one to go to hell; for this, a willful turning away from God (a mortal sin) is necessary, and persistence in it until the end.

You seem to be walking somewhere between close and very close to Universalism, something the Church does not teach, your understanding of soteriology notwithstanding. It may be that I misunderstand you, but that is my take from your comments.