Things are only rigid if the’re immovable with respect to space and time. God himself is outside of both space and time (which are both created things), and so the definition of ridigity does not apply.
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abucs
Guest
why?
We measure change inside Creation from one state to another. It would be the same theoretically outside of Creation.
Because inside Creation all states are located in space, we can measure change with regard to space. We can still speak of states outside of Creation. How we measure a change in state outside of Creation would be dependent on how these different states are constituted.
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No it would not, because time does not exist outside of creation, and God is not subject to time. God does not change precisely because of this. Everything is Now to God. In God, there is no past, present, or future. This is why it is a dogma of faith that God is absolutely immutable. There is no change in him whatsoever because, in the absence of both time and space (or rather, God transcending time and space), change is impossible. The concept of “states” in God is therefore impossible as well.porthos11:
why?
We measure change inside Creation from one state to another. It would be the same theoretically outside of Creation.
Because inside Creation all states are located in space, we can measure change with regard to space. We can still speak of states outside of Creation. How we measure a change in state outside of Creation would be dependent on how these different states are constituted.
g of change
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TheLittleLady
Guest
And utterly eternal.
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abucs
Guest
I am not sure I agree with you regarding states but pretty much what you have said is that the nature of God is rigid.
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Well you must if you would adhere to Catholic teaching. God does not exist in time or space, otherwise, he cannot be God. There are absolutely no states in God because God’s immutability is absolute. If God were to exist in some state external to him, then he by definition cannot be God.porthos11:
I am not sure I agree with you regarding states but pretty much what you have said is that the nature of God is rigid.
Because rigidity is always relative to another dimensions, God cannot by definition be rigid. What he is, instead, is Eternal.
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abucs
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I thinki it is true to say that God is not bound by time and space but I would not say He does not exist in time and space. Would we not say Jesus is God and He did for at least a while exist in time and space?.
this I don’t afree with.
Regards.
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Vonsalza
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It’s another dualism in Christianity.
The oldest Jewish presentations of God are those of a deity that experiences a broad range of dynamic emotions and thus does change (probably along with other lesser members of a pantheon that were later edited out or revised as non-deistic).
When Jews and Greeks began seeing a bit more of each other, the influence of Greek thought presented perfection as unchanging thus God, being perfect, could not change.
Theologians have been trying to harmonize for 2500 years.
The oldest Jewish presentations of God are those of a deity that experiences a broad range of dynamic emotions and thus does change (probably along with other lesser members of a pantheon that were later edited out or revised as non-deistic).
When Jews and Greeks began seeing a bit more of each other, the influence of Greek thought presented perfection as unchanging thus God, being perfect, could not change.
Theologians have been trying to harmonize for 2500 years.
You cannot forget the Incarnation and the dogma of the hypostatic union. Jesus is true God and True Man. He existed in time and space in his human nature, not in his divine. Jesus is a divine Person, yes but with two natures, and his actions and existence, are according to one of these two natures. We say as God, Jesus is uncreated. We say as man, Jesus is a creature. We say as man, Jesus died. As God, he did not. As man, Jesus existed in time and space. As God, Jesus is eternal. He came down from heaven and became man, but never left his Father’s side as God.porthos11:
I thinki it is true to say that God is not bound by time and space but I would not say He does not exist in time and space. Would we not say Jesus is God and He did for at least a while exist in time and space?.
this I don’t afree with.
Regards.
You cannot confuse ridigity and eternity. Something is defined as rigid only insofar as it or other objects are subject to motion (which is change). Since God is not subject to motion being outside of space and time (this a consequence of the dogma of God’s eternity and immutability, so one cannot deny it without falling into heresy, so caution here), we cannot impose the definition of rigidity with eternity.
If God were to exist in time and space, then he would be confined to time and space, and therefore by definition, not God.
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Wesrock
Guest
Regardless of its textbook definition, rigid is often applied to human persons with a negative connotation. One would think that a person described as “rigid” would be someone who is never merciful, who simply executes a law without any regard for mercy or reform.
If we go by that extended definition, then we can indeed use the term “rigid” for God, but not to his nature but according to our perceptions.
Creation itself is an eternal act, but since the created plane is subject to space and time God’s eternal Act “translates” into effects within space and time, and so we limited humans perceive it as God “moving” which is why we have phrases such as the Spirit “blowing” and “moving”. But even these “movements” are not movements to God, but are ever present to him.
So relative to our own existence there is a way to perceive God as rigid. His moral law, for example, never changes. What was a sin then is sin now, and what is inherently true then is still true now, because Truth is a Divine Person. Neither does his will, or eternal decrees. But that “rigidity” is something we only perceive because WE are subject to change and motion. When talking about God and his nature, we must take creation out of the equation, and then we have only eternity. Since there is no time, space, motion, or change in God then he cannot be rigid according to the textbook definition because is is eternal.
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abucs
Guest
This is not correct, we can be rigid in our thoughts and will which is not solely dependent on space and time unless you want to say God does not have thoughts or will.
When we hopefully go to Heaven our will and thoughts will be to adore and praise God. We do not lose our will and thoughts in Heaven as this would mean it is not really us that are there. Our wills and thoughts may have to pass through purgatory to be more aligned with goodness but if it is not our thoughts and will then freedom of choice would have no meaning here in God’s Creation. Our love and awe for God will be rigid, that is, it will not switch from love to hate to indifference etc.
Eternal characteristics can also be described as rigid. You can say that God’s nature is rigidly eternal. That is, you do not have a situation where God is absent from reality. I would include God’s presence in his Creation of time and space in that eternity,
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abucs
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You can be rigidly merciful. Rigid is an adjective or adverb and its positive or negative connotation depends on what is being described.
Because God is eternal and unchanging, much of God’s nature can be described as rigid IMHO.
Perhaps also the devil is rigid in His rebellion from God. What the devil is rebelling against is also rigid, that is it does not bend and surrender to the wishes of the devil, thus the continual stand off is due to a rigid (ongoing) incompatibility.
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edwest211
Guest
The Bible is clear about God’s nature:
James 1:17
New International Version
Every good and perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of the heavenly lights, who does not change like shifting shadows.
New Living Translation
Whatever is good and perfect comes down to us from God our Father, who created all the lights in the heavens. He never changes or casts a shifting shadow.
English Standard Version
Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or shadow due to change.
James 1:17
New International Version
Every good and perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of the heavenly lights, who does not change like shifting shadows.
New Living Translation
Whatever is good and perfect comes down to us from God our Father, who created all the lights in the heavens. He never changes or casts a shifting shadow.
English Standard Version
Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or shadow due to change.
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abucs
Guest
Yes, “does not change” is absolute rigidness. Or to put it another way rigidness to the extreme.
I think others have made fair points about human attempts to describe God and that the biblical quotes above can be a reflection of the limitations of human understanding.
Still, like the quotes above denote, I agree the nature of God does not change, it is rigid.
Further this rigidness is seen in Catholic theology as an unchanging and pure goodness that has had the benefit of drawing all souls in human history towards it and to mould our very being and communities around this nature. Praise God.
I think others have made fair points about human attempts to describe God and that the biblical quotes above can be a reflection of the limitations of human understanding.
Still, like the quotes above denote, I agree the nature of God does not change, it is rigid.
Further this rigidness is seen in Catholic theology as an unchanging and pure goodness that has had the benefit of drawing all souls in human history towards it and to mould our very being and communities around this nature. Praise God.
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edwest211
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Quotes from the Bible do not reflect human understanding. The Bible has God as its author. Just like the prophets did not speak their own words but spoke what God told them to say.
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ShowersofRoses
Guest
Rigid is not a good adjective to describe God. End.of.Story. The word rigid has negative connotations. Stick to describing God the way that the Church and the Scriptures describe Him.
The synonyms for rigid include stiff, hard, firm, inflexible, unbending, unyielding, inelastic. None of these describe God, unless you worship a harsh, unyielding old man in the sky who takes delight in punishing his creatures.
God is eternal and unchanging, an anchor in the storms, a firm foundation, who delights in mercy and gives good gifts to His children, who bends His ear to hear our prayers and is swift to rescue us.
Not rigid, unbending, inflexible.
Loving, Just, and Merciful.
The synonyms for rigid include stiff, hard, firm, inflexible, unbending, unyielding, inelastic. None of these describe God, unless you worship a harsh, unyielding old man in the sky who takes delight in punishing his creatures.
God is eternal and unchanging, an anchor in the storms, a firm foundation, who delights in mercy and gives good gifts to His children, who bends His ear to hear our prayers and is swift to rescue us.
Not rigid, unbending, inflexible.
Loving, Just, and Merciful.
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abucs
Guest
Rigid also denotes strength and unconquerable qualities. I have no problem with seeing rigid in a positive light. Possibly this could be in some part due to my engineering background. Be it anything from building a bridge to the strength of a human cell in biology, rigidness can be a very necessary and desirable quality.
The Scriptures above (in Hebrew) describe God as not changing, thus rigid.
ok, now end of story. ???
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ShowersofRoses
Guest
Lol. I guess in that context, like a strong, mighty tower, it could be a positive. By itself in isolation it seems negative. I don’t think I would use it as a descriptive without more context.
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