Is the Pope Infallible when canonizing a Saint?

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I think the hangup is the word “infallible”. The proper term to describe a canonization is “Ex Cathedra”. The command is being given from the Chair of Peter.

Does this help?

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
Well, the thing that I am finding confusing is which part is the infallible decree and what it implies. Like as in is it
  1. Just the binding to veneration that is infallible?
  2. The fact that the person is in heaven?
Because if (2) is binding, what about the case of people who were declared saints that did not exist?

So I think as you said, it is merely (1)? That even if the faithful venerate the person out of error, it is still the right thing to do because of the authority of the Church given by Christ?
 
Does anyone know if someone can be “Un-beatified”?

The claim seems to be that Infallibility does not extend to that. Wonder if there are historical cases that happened and on what grounds.
I don’t think an actual person can be un-beatified, but what has happened at some points in history is that the Church has suppressed the cultus of certain ‘saints’ who were beatified by popular acclaim before the formal canonization process we have today, on the evidence that they may not in fact have existed.

I can think of 3 examples, St Christopher, St Ursula (I think) the accounts of whose life may actually be an amalgam of 4 or 5 different women, and St Simon of Trent, whose alleged ‘martyrdom’ was just an excuse for a pogrom.
 
Well, the thing that I am finding confusing is which part is the infallible decree and what it implies. Like as in is it
  1. Just the binding to veneration that is infallible?
  2. The fact that the person is in heaven?
Because if (2) is binding, what about the case of people who were declared saints that did not exist?

So I think as you said, it is merely (1)? That even if the faithful venerate the person out of error, it is still the right thing to do because of the authority of the Church given by Christ?
You have to remember that the saints that were taken off the calendar were never canonized. Canonization as we know it came into existence in the 11th century. Prior to that, bishops canonized and prior to that canonization was by default. What do I mean by default? People beleived that someone was in heaven and they started a cult to that person. For example, St. Augustine has never been canonized. There is no need to go back and hold an official canonization, because the faith of the Church tells us that he’s a saint and we can prove that he existed.

In the case where the faithful venerated a legendary saint, it was not by the authority of the Church, it was because of a custom or tradition. One of the most wonderful examples of truth and legend blended into one is St. George. I believe that it’s St. George who is attributed with having killed a dragon. The dragon part is legend, probably allegory. St. George, however, is a real person who lived a life of heroic virtue. The Church authorizes a cult to him, but not because he slayed a dragon.

Anything declared from the Chair of Peter is infallible. However, not everything that is infallible is declared from the Chair of Peter. Therein lies the problem with the wording that we’re using here.

To keep it straight in our own heads, it’s better to say that a canonization is Ex Cathedra.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
Then how is a saint a saint if he’s not canonized? What about the required miracles, etc?
 
Then how is a saint a saint if he’s not canonized? What about the required miracles, etc?
These requirements are man-made. Any pope has the authority to dispense with the requirements or to abolish them completely.

Look up above where I speak about the canonizations of Francis, Anthony, Clare and Dominic. There were no required miracles, not beatification and the investigations literally lasted about an hour. They were literally interviews with Popes Gregory IX and Alexander IV who simply said that they believed what they heard, because they knew these people personally. On one occasion, Pope Gregory IX said about Francis, “I’ve heard enough. You don’t have to convince me. I know the man. He was my friend.” He proceeded to canonize him without any more investigation or beatification.

A person need not be canonized to be a saint. That’s why we celebrate the Solemnity of All Saints. These are all the saints that have never been canonized, because the Church does not know about them.

In the case of the Apostles, the Blessed Mother, the Fathers of the Church, the faith of the Church tells us that they are saints. When the Church, as a body of believers, holds something to be true, it does not require a papal action. As a body of believers, we believe that Augstine of Hippo is in heaven. This belief has been handed down from generation to generation. Upon examination, no pope has found a reason to doubt that this is an infallible belief.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
Then how is a saint a saint if he’s not canonized? What about the required miracles, etc?
We are all called to be saints, after all, but we are not all called to be canonized! A friend who spent some time as a Carthusian novice tells me the story of a young Carthusian brother who was sent to dig a grave for a recently deceased member of the community. The monastery graveyard was relatively small, so they simply dug over the oldest grave, a plot that hadn’t been used for several hundred years. The young monk’s spade hit something firm, and he brushed back the dirt to find a perfectly preserved body.

Running to the abbot, he burst into his cell, shouting “we have an incorrupt saint! we have an incorrupt saint!” The abbot sat, thought for a second, then said, “cover him over again and dig a few feet to the right.” The Carthusian order, like the Church, exists to make saints, not to make them known.

What’s the point of this story - just that the saints were more interested in being holy than being proved to be holy, not practising their piety before others, and we ought to have the same attitude.
 
You have to remember that the saints that were taken off the calendar were never canonized. Canonization as we know it came into existence in the 11th century. Prior to that, bishops canonized and prior to that canonization was by default. What do I mean by default? People beleived that someone was in heaven and they started a cult to that person. For example, St. Augustine has never been canonized. There is no need to go back and hold an official canonization, because the faith of the Church tells us that he’s a saint and we can prove that he existed.

In the case where the faithful venerated a legendary saint, it was not by the authority of the Church, it was because of a custom or tradition. One of the most wonderful examples of truth and legend blended into one is St. George. I believe that it’s St. George who is attributed with having killed a dragon. The dragon part is legend, probably allegory. St. George, however, is a real person who lived a life of heroic virtue. The Church authorizes a cult to him, but not because he slayed a dragon.

Anything declared from the Chair of Peter is infallible. However, not everything that is infallible is declared from the Chair of Peter. Therein lies the problem with the wording that we’re using here.

To keep it straight in our own heads, it’s better to say that a canonization is Ex Cathedra.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
Thank you for that reply Brother JR, I think I understand the pre-canonization process saints better now.

But what I still find a little unclear is, what purpose does the beatification serve?

Like lets take the case of Blessed JP II. The Pope beatified JP II. But if he was certain that JP II was in heaven, shouldn’t he also have canonized him? In terms of the decree/permit language, if the Pope is sure that the person is in heaven, shouldn’t he have also decreed the veneration since Blessed JP II is in heaven?

Or is there some doubt after the beatification and is that the reason why a Canonization is not followed up with right after?

Also, are everyone in heaven a saint? Or is it only a subset of those in heaven? Or is it that some in heaven are worthy of veneration and others are not (I can see this being true too because not everyone will be equal in heaven)?
 
I have never heard of a beatification being recinded. However, as someone else said, there are many cases that never get beyond “Servant of God”, “Venerable” or “Blessed”. That may be because the promoters run out of energy, or because the required miracles and other information needed simply aren’t there (or haven’t happened yet).
I seem to remember that Holy Roman Emperor Charlemagne reached beatification and then stalled out.
 
Thank you for that reply Brother JR, I think I understand the pre-canonization process saints better now.

But what I still find a little unclear is, what purpose does the beatification serve?

Like lets take the case of Blessed JP II. The Pope beatified JP II. But if he was certain that JP II was in heaven, shouldn’t he also have canonized him? In terms of the decree/permit language, if the Pope is sure that the person is in heaven, shouldn’t he have also decreed the veneration since Blessed JP II is in heaven?

Or is there some doubt after the beatification and is that the reason why a Canonization is not followed up with right after?

Also, are everyone in heaven a saint? Or is it only a subset of those in heaven? Or is it that some in heaven are worthy of veneration and others are not (I can see this being true too because not everyone will be equal in heaven)?
Let’s go with your last question first. All human beings in heaven are saints. There are other creatures in heaven, but they have never been human: angels, archangels, etc.

Why not proceed to a canonization? It’s really a matter of prudential judgment on the part of the Church. There was a time when there was no beatification. As I said above, we went from having no formal process to a very complicated one instituted in the 11th century, to one which was trimmed down a bit in 1917 and trimmed down again in 1983. In between that, popes have really done what they want. They abided by the process, ignored it completely or they have skipped one part and ignored another.

In the cases of Mother Teresa and Pope John Paul, the popes were so certain of their sanctity that they dispensed with the waiting period to begin the process. However, in both cases, there was such an uproar from one side of the Church, mostly the Trad side, that it seemed prudent to stop at beatification to let people get used to the idea and let emotions calm down. Beatification serves almost as a buffer. By requiring those two miracles and sticking to that, you calm people’s nerves. Those who are too fervent and those who are opposed can be equally disruptive to the life of the Church.

Just like in the case with St. Francis, people who knew Mother Teresa and Pope John Paul had conflicting feelings about them. Some loved them and some distrusted them. Today, we look back at someone like St. Francis and no one dares say anything against the man; but that’s 800 years later. In his day, some Catholics, including cardinals, hated him. When he was canonized without delay, the indignation almost brought down the Lateran. There was no Vatican yet. To add insult to injury, the pope sanctioned the building of a basilica to him. Those devoted to Francis was thrilled, while those who had now been forced to venerate him were upset. A new saint had been shoved down their throat and a lot of money was being poured into a great basilica.

Different popes have take different approaches. Beatification helps to give something to those who are devoted to the saint and it calms those who want to wait and see. But as you say, since the pope already believes that the person is in heaven, he can do as he wishes and the rest of us have to follow along.

A great example of this is the SSPX’s reaction to the beatification of Pope John XXIII and Mother Teresa. They have accepted it, because the Church says so. However, since their cult is not mandated, the SSPX stays away from it as if it were a hot iron. Then you have religious families like the Franciscans who have asked for permission to include Bl. John XXIII, Bl. Mother Teresa and Bl. John Paul in its liturgical calendar with no shame or hesitation. Once the Franciscan Liturgical Commission decided and the generals voted, 1.7 million Franciscans may no longer have an opinion on the matter. Francis has spoken. End of story. These Blesseds are to be included in the Franciscan Liturgical Calendar and life.

If they were not in heaven, it would be a sacrilege to allow a mass and a LOTH for Bl. John Paul and a feast day for him in any part of the world. One of his writings has been added to Matins.

There is a collect for him that can be used in both forms, OF and EF.

**O God, who are rich in mercy and who willed that the Blessed John Paul II should preside as Pope over your universal Church, grant, we pray, that instructed by his teaching, we may open our hearts to the saving grace of Christ, the sole Redeemer of mankind. Who lives and reigns.

Deus, dives in misericórdia, qui beátum Ioánnem Paulum, papam, univérsae Ecclésiae tuae praeésse voluísti, praesta, quaésumus, ut, eius institútis edócti, corda nostra salutíferae grátiae Christi, uníus redemptóris hóminis, fidénter aperiámus. Qui tecum.**

We would not pray this way if we did not believe in his sanctity. Lex orandi lex credendi.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
Actually I believe he already is considered a Blessed.
saints.sqpn.com/blessed-charlemagne/

Odd, considering he had multiple wives, though that was considered an okay standard back then.
He was beatified by Pope Benedict XIV. Charles underwent a conversion and lived a heroic life of virtue after that. The history of his alliances was prior to his conversion. Having many wives has never been standard in the Catholic Church.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
He was beatified by Pope Benedict XIV. Charles underwent a conversion and lived a heroic life of virtue after that. The history of his alliances was prior to his conversion. Having many wives has never been standard in the Catholic Church.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
When they do a cultus confirmed, does it come with the same ceremony at a beatification? Or is it altered in any way?
 
Yes, but I think with respect to Canonization, it is determined that it is Infallible.

Because to hold up someone bad who went to hell as exemplary and imitation would be … well… bad for the Church 🙂

That being said, not every part of a Saint’s life is worthy of imitation too I guess.
Not everything a saint did is worthy of imitation.

Being a saint means being in heaven. It doesn’t mean that the person’s life was free of sin or error.
 
When they do a cultus confirmed, does it come with the same ceremony at a beatification? Or is it altered in any way?
In those days, the ritual was not as formal as it is today. Today it’s a liturgical event. Back then it was a decree.
Not everything a saint did is worthy of imitation.

Being a saint means being in heaven. It doesn’t mean that the person’s life was free of sin or error.
The Church holds ups for us their holiness, not their weaknesses. We have to avoid the temptation to overplay the fact that saints “are only human”. That would be counterproductive and inconsistent with the ancient Judeo-Christian tradition of venerating the saint.

This holy tradition goes way back to ancient Israel to the Ten Days of Awe between Rosh Hashana and Yom Kippur when our Jewish ancestors would go to the graves of the patriarchs and prophets to ask for their intercession and was brought into Christianity by the first Jewish Christians who would celebrate the Eucharist over the graves of the martyrs. Praying over the graves of the patriarchs and prophets died out with the destruction of Jerusalem and the Diaspora of the Jews, Christian and nonn-Christian.

We imitate their loving submission to the voice of God and the perfection of charity in their lives.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
Let’s go with your last question first. All human beings in heaven are saints. There are other creatures in heaven, but they have never been human: angels, archangels, etc.

Why not proceed to a canonization? It’s really a matter of prudential judgment on the part of the Church. There was a time when there was no beatification. As I said above, we went from having no formal process to a very complicated one instituted in the 11th century, to one which was trimmed down a bit in 1917 and trimmed down again in 1983. In between that, popes have really done what they want. They abided by the process, ignored it completely or they have skipped one part and ignored another.

In the cases of Mother Teresa and Pope John Paul, the popes were so certain of their sanctity that they dispensed with the waiting period to begin the process. However, in both cases, there was such an uproar from one side of the Church, mostly the Trad side, that it seemed prudent to stop at beatification to let people get used to the idea and let emotions calm down. Beatification serves almost as a buffer. By requiring those two miracles and sticking to that, you calm people’s nerves. Those who are too fervent and those who are opposed can be equally disruptive to the life of the Church.

Just like in the case with St. Francis, people who knew Mother Teresa and Pope John Paul had conflicting feelings about them. Some loved them and some distrusted them. Today, we look back at someone like St. Francis and no one dares say anything against the man; but that’s 800 years later. In his day, some Catholics, including cardinals, hated him. When he was canonized without delay, the indignation almost brought down the Lateran. There was no Vatican yet. To add insult to injury, the pope sanctioned the building of a basilica to him. Those devoted to Francis was thrilled, while those who had now been forced to venerate him were upset. A new saint had been shoved down their throat and a lot of money was being poured into a great basilica.

Different popes have take different approaches. Beatification helps to give something to those who are devoted to the saint and it calms those who want to wait and see. But as you say, since the pope already believes that the person is in heaven, he can do as he wishes and the rest of us have to follow along.

A great example of this is the SSPX’s reaction to the beatification of Pope John XXIII and Mother Teresa. They have accepted it, because the Church says so. However, since their cult is not mandated, the SSPX stays away from it as if it were a hot iron. Then you have religious families like the Franciscans who have asked for permission to include Bl. John XXIII, Bl. Mother Teresa and Bl. John Paul in its liturgical calendar with no shame or hesitation. Once the Franciscan Liturgical Commission decided and the generals voted, 1.7 million Franciscans may no longer have an opinion on the matter. Francis has spoken. End of story. These Blesseds are to be included in the Franciscan Liturgical Calendar and life.

If they were not in heaven, it would be a sacrilege to allow a mass and a LOTH for Bl. John Paul and a feast day for him in any part of the world. One of his writings has been added to Matins.

There is a collect for him that can be used in both forms, OF and EF.

**O God, who are rich in mercy and who willed that the Blessed John Paul II should preside as Pope over your universal Church, grant, we pray, that instructed by his teaching, we may open our hearts to the saving grace of Christ, the sole Redeemer of mankind. Who lives and reigns.

Deus, dives in misericórdia, qui beátum Ioánnem Paulum, papam, univérsae Ecclésiae tuae praeésse voluísti, praesta, quaésumus, ut, eius institútis edócti, corda nostra salutíferae grátiae Christi, uníus redemptóris hóminis, fidénter aperiámus. Qui tecum.**

We would not pray this way if we did not believe in his sanctity. Lex orandi lex credendi.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
Thank you once again Brother JR. I think it is clear now.
 
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