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passer_by
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Ok I understand this.No. It does not work that way. The person beatified is in heaven. A canonization is a decree that commands the Church to venerate the person and mandates that the person’s name be inscribed in the book of saints.
Just because the command is not there and the person is not inscribed in the book of saints does not mean that he is not in heaven. The Church has no obligation to command this until the pope is good and ready to do so.
Remember, the Ordinary Magisterium is also protected from error. Canonization is not Ordinary Magisterium. It’s Extraordinary. The pope speaks Ex Cathedra. But the pope can be infallible even when he does not speak Ex Cathedra, when he is teaching the faith to the Church. He cannot teach error. Therefore, he cannot say that a demon is a blessed. If he says that John Henry Newman is a Blessed, you can bet your life that Newman is in heaven. If Newman were a demon, the pope would not be able to call him a Blessed. That would be a serious moral error.
Fraternally,
Br. JR, OSF
But then what is exactly ‘infallibly’ declared during a canonization? Is it merely the universality of the call to venerate the person as a saint?
I always thought the infallibility applied to whether ‘the person is definitely in heaven’.
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passer_by
Guest
I think there is a difference here though. The Pope gives the advice during lent. It is not meant to be infallible as to whether it is the right thing to say at that time.
But in the beatification, there is something reserved to be infallibly declared at the canonization. So does that mean that we have uncertainty?
To put it a different way, the Immaculate Conception, before it became Dogma had persons (Popes and Bishops) who both supported it and did not support it. So it was possible that it could be true or false. So in the same way, if it is not infallibly decided that the person is in heaven or not, it seems very much possible that the person is in hell too after beatification, no?
If that were not the case, then why is it even important to stress that a beatification is not infallible? One could simply say that it is not binding on all the faithful, no?
J
Jacob50
Guest
I read this in the EWTN library:
St. Thomas Aquinas says, ‘Honor we show the saints is a certain profession of faith by which we believe in their glory, and it is to be piously believed that even in this the judgment of the Church is not able to err’ (Quodl. 9:8:16).“The pope cannot by solemn definition induce errors concerning faith and morals into the teaching of the universal Church. Should the Church hold up for universal veneration a man’s life and habits that in reality led to [his] damnation, it would lead the faithful into error. It is now theologically certain that the solemn canonization of a saint is an infallible and irrevocable decision of the supreme pontiff. God speaks infallibly through his Church as it demonstrates and exemplifies its universal teaching in a particular person or judges that person’s acts to be in accord with its teaching.”
At the same time, it is important to note that while the decree of heroic virtues and the miracle form a necessary part of the process of canonization, they are not the specific object of the declaration of infallibility.
Although the saint is proposed as a model of virtues and Christian living, it is not the specific object of canonization. For example, it is quite possible that a martyr show heroic virtue in the face of death without necessarily having lived all the virtues to an exemplary degree. Nor does canonization make the saints immune from the judgment of history insofar as hindsight might show that some of their external actions proved to be unwise or had negative consequences.
This argument therefore would place the infallibility of canonization within the area of faith insofar as the venerability of saints is a dogma grounded in Revelation, and the determination as to which persons can be thus venerated is a necessary exercise of infallible authority.
A further argument can be offered. With a canonization, the Pope mandates (rather than permits, as is the case of beatification) that a saint be venerated in the Church’s liturgy and especially with the Eucharistic celebration in his honor. Considering that the Mass is the highest and most perfect form of worship, it is logical that the Holy Spirit would guard the Pope and the Church from any error regarding a canonized person’s definitive state.
J
JReducation
Guest
Jacob’s citation of Aquinas is where I was coming from. The Church cannot call blessed those who are in hell. In doing so, she would be holding them up as models for us. That would be something that the Holy Spirit would (name removed by moderator)air. Therefore, when a man or women is called Blessed, he or she is held up as an example of heroic Chrstian virtue to be imitated.
The decree of canonization has an added dimension. It commands teh faithful to venerate. You’re no longer being encouraged or allowed to venerate, as is the case in beatification. You are being commanded. The pope invokes his apostolic authority as successor of Peter in commanding. This leaves no room in the mind of Catholics that this is an obligation. You may not like Bl. John Paul, but once the pope declares that he is St. John Paul, you are commanded to put aside all of your disagreements with him and his policies, etc and venerate him at least once a year by celebrating his holy day through the entire liturgy, not only the mass. That’s another thing. We’re very narrow minded in our appreciation of how we adore God and praise him for our saints. The mass does not stand alone. It is the crown. The LOTH is the jewels around the crown. The entire liturgical day is one unit of adoration and veneration, just as the crown and its precious jewels are one headpiece.
Your are right about one thing, the beatification is not an infallible decree. But let’s examine which part is not infallible. It’s not the part that John Paul, Mother Teresa or John Henry Newman are in heaven. There is no question about that. The part that is not protected by infallibility is the cultus or cult. The faithful are free to engage or not. Even those places where the cult is allowed, are not bound to it. They CAN, they don’t have to. Peter has not commanded it. At a canonization, Peter commands the cult for the universal Church. Of course, he can then dispense some fo the Churches from it. He can even dispense some of the faithful form it. The different Catholic Churches have different liturgical calendars. Even in the Latin Church, different countries, dioceses and religious families have different liturgical calendars so that on November 24, Franciscans celebrate All Souls Day for their brothers and sisters only. On November 29, they celebrate All Saints Day for their saints only. The rest of the Church celebrate celebrates St. Andre Du Lanc on Nov 24 and Tuesday of Advent on the 29th. St. Andre is a mandatory veneration for the universal Church, from which Franciscans are dispensed so they can pray for their deceased brothers and sisters.
As to the martyrs, the Church interprets the bible. The bible does not interpret itself. St. Paul remind us of this. What the bible shows about martyrdom has to be understood based on the Church’s interpretation. There are some passages that the bible takes literally or at face value. There are others tha tthe Chuch does not take literally or at face value. Because she looks at Sacred Tradition and at the Magisterium and finds more on the subject. It may turn out that this was a position held by a biblical writer that was not held by the Christian community, because it was not intended for the entire Christian community, but only for a specific population. To understand when martyrdom equates to an immediate release from all penalties of sin, read the CCC.
Fraternally,
Br. JR, OSF
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TrueLight
Guest
This is what frustrates me. Some things should be black and white.
I do not understand why a question like “are beatifications infallible” is up for debate. Why does everyone have a different opinion? Why is it not clear in some sort of document, aside from the opinions of individual Saints/theologians?
I found this on EWTN.
I do not understand why a question like “are beatifications infallible” is up for debate. Why does everyone have a different opinion? Why is it not clear in some sort of document, aside from the opinions of individual Saints/theologians?
I found this on EWTN.
So is EWTN wrong?
J
JReducation
Guest
No, EWTN is not wrong. It’s saying the same thing that Thomas Aquinas said and that I just said. The decree of canonization binds the entire Church to venerate the individual. The decree of beatification does not have this effect.
The fact that the entire Church is not bound to venerate the individual does not mean that the decree of Beatification is wrong. It is not possible for the Church to point to someone as heroic and to attribute a miracle to his or her intercession, if that person is not in heaven.
The reason that it’s not an infallible decree is because it does not carry the weight of a command to venerate. It has nothing to do with the status of the person.
Let’s take Bl. John Henry Newman, Bl. John XXIII, Bl. John Paul II and Bl. John duns Scotus, our most recent blessed. I’m sure that I missed someone. These people are in heaven. However, the pope has not commanded a universal cult to them. He can do so at any time, with or without miracles. At the end of the day, the Holy Spirit speaks through the pope, not through the miracles, since it’s the pope who has to acknowledge the miracles.
As to your other question, why isn’t everything written down and uniform, that’s because we’re Catholics. We don’t function that way. There are many things that are written in different documents, some are never written in any formal documents and others are written and shared only with a select few. You never hear about certain things until it’s time to speak about it.
We have to remember that these things were always in the hands of bishops and religious superiors. The laity had nothing to do with it. The laity never even heard of what was going on until the decrees were made public. There was no internet and these things were written and stored in libraries that were not accessible to the laity. Even today, the laity has a very small part in the process, unless they are theologians and scholars. The mind of the Catholic Church has always been that only those who are directly involved in the process need to understand it. Therefore, those who are involved, have full access to documents, letters, decrees and commentaries by different authoritative sources. The rest of the faithful have access to bits and pieces. Often, these bits and pieces, without the missing pieces, don’t add up. That’s the problem that you’re having
None of these things that you’re reading are in conflict, but you’re missing the connecting documents, memos, statements, commentaries, etc. They’re just not available to the laity. Maybe, with the advance of technology, someone will collect it all and compile DVDs, CDs, and electronic files that we can go to for the whole story. That will take years, because there are so many pieces of paper out there that go back almost 1,000 years.
Fraternally,
Br. JR, OSF
T
TrueLight
Guest
I understand that the laity may not have access to all the documents. However, there should be a more simpler document that gives the standard answers to important questions such as this one.No, EWTN is not wrong. It’s saying the same thing that Thomas Aquinas said and that I just said. The decree of canonization binds the entire Church to venerate the individual. The decree of beatification does not have this effect.
The fact that the entire Church is not bound to venerate the individual does not mean that the decree of Beatification is wrong. It is not possible for the Church to point to someone as heroic and to attribute a miracle to his or her intercession, if that person is not in heaven.
The reason that it’s not an infallible decree is because it does not carry the weight of a command to venerate. It has nothing to do with the status of the person.
Let’s take Bl. John Henry Newman, Bl. John XXIII, Bl. John Paul II and Bl. John duns Scotus, our most recent blessed. I’m sure that I missed someone. These people are in heaven. However, the pope has not commanded a universal cult to them. He can do so at any time, with or without miracles. At the end of the day, the Holy Spirit speaks through the pope, not through the miracles, since it’s the pope who has to acknowledge the miracles.
As to your other question, why isn’t everything written down and uniform, that’s because we’re Catholics. We don’t function that way. There are many things that are written in different documents, some are never written in any formal documents and others are written and shared only with a select few. You never hear about certain things until it’s time to speak about it.
We have to remember that these things were always in the hands of bishops and religious superiors. The laity had nothing to do with it. The laity never even heard of what was going on until the decrees were made public. There was no internet and these things were written and stored in libraries that were not accessible to the laity. Even today, the laity has a very small part in the process, unless they are theologians and scholars. The mind of the Catholic Church has always been that only those who are directly involved in the process need to understand it. Therefore, those who are involved, have full access to documents, letters, decrees and commentaries by different authoritative sources. The rest of the faithful have access to bits and pieces. Often, these bits and pieces, without the missing pieces, don’t add up. That’s the problem that you’re having
None of these things that you’re reading are in conflict, but you’re missing the connecting documents, memos, statements, commentaries, etc. They’re just not available to the laity. Maybe, with the advance of technology, someone will collect it all and compile DVDs, CDs, and electronic files that we can go to for the whole story. That will take years, because there are so many pieces of paper out there that go back almost 1,000 years.
Fraternally,
Br. JR, OSF
I said this to you before. I find a lot of the Vatican documents to be extremely ambiguous.
Anyway, I may have not read your answers fully. However, I do know some people in this thread said that beatifications are infallible.
I’m off to re-read the responses.
Thanks.
J
JReducation
Guest
Some day, the laity will have access to the same things that everyone else has, when it’s all gathered and stored in one source. Today’s techonology makes this possible for documents and thoughts from today going forward. I can’t imagine how long it would take to go back and find everything from the year 70 to today. Can you imagine the work involved?
To the Church, this is not an important question; therefore, you won’t find anyone taking the time to put together a formal statement. As far as the Vatican is concerned, the people who need to know the rules here are the postulators, religious superiors of men, the members of the Sacred Congregation for the Causes of the Saints, Canon Lawyers and the Cardinal Theologians. If you asked the Vatican this question, they would look at you as if to ask, “What does this have to do with the life of the lay person?” You have to understand that this is more than laws and procedures. These is a question of cultures. The Vatican is a culture of its own.
My guess is that this culture is not going to change anytime soon. In fact, I see going back further in time, just by the fact that during the last five years the present Holy Father has named more Dominicans, Franciscans and Benedictines bishops. What do the three orders have in common? You guessed it, unquestioning obedience to the papacy. These bishops are used to obeying even the most foolish commands, as long as they are not sins.
From the point of view of this generation of religious who are being appointed bishops, there are roles for each Christian. With these roles there are also specific questions and answers that are proper to each. They’re going to redirect the concerns of the people to focus on what is necessary for their holiness. The answer to this question is not necessary for holiness. If you happen to ask, you get an answer. But no one thinks of it being important enough for the life of the layman to put gather all that has been said about it into one statement and publish it. There are other questions that are more important to the spirituality of the faithful. Even religious don’t have all the answers to these questions. We have been trained to ask the question, if you get an answer, be grateful. If you don’t get an answer, then it’s not important to your life. Move along.
We don’t get frustrated over this. We just go
Fraternally,
Br. JR, OSF
T
TrueLight
Guest
See, I can’t get with this whole “You’re just a lay person” program. Lay people count too!Some day, the laity will have access to the same things that everyone else has, when it’s all gathered and stored in one source. Today’s techonology makes this possible for documents and thoughts from today going forward. I can’t imagine how long it would take to go back and find everything from the year 70 to today. Can you imagine the work involved?
To the Church, this is not an important question; therefore, you won’t find anyone taking the time to put together a formal statement. As far as the Vatican is concerned, the people who need to know the rules here are the postulators, religious superiors of men, the members of the Sacred Congregation for the Causes of the Saints, Canon Lawyers and the Cardinal Theologians. If you asked the Vatican this question, they would look at you as if to ask, “What does this have to do with the life of the lay person?” You have to understand that this is more than laws and procedures. These is a question of cultures. The Vatican is a culture of its own.
My guess is that this culture is not going to change anytime soon. In fact, I see going back further in time, just by the fact that during the last five years the present Holy Father has named more Dominicans, Franciscans and Benedictines bishops. What do the three orders have in common? You guessed it, unquestioning obedience to the papacy. These bishops are used to obeying even the most foolish commands, as long as they are not sins.
From the point of view of this generation of religious who are being appointed bishops, there are roles for each Christian. With these roles there are also specific questions and answers that are proper to each. They’re going to redirect the concerns of the people to focus on what is necessary for their holiness. The answer to this question is not necessary for holiness. If you happen to ask, you get an answer. But no one thinks of it being important enough for the life of the layman to put gather all that has been said about it into one statement and publish it. There are other questions that are more important to the spirituality of the faithful. Even religious don’t have all the answers to these questions. We have been trained to ask the question, if you get an answer, be grateful. If you don’t get an answer, then it’s not important to your life. Move along.
We don’t get frustrated over this. We just go
Fraternally,
Br. JR, OSF
If a Vatican person were to ask me what does the infallibility of a beatification or canonization have to do with a lay person or his holiness, I would say this: “Since when someone is beatified, they are held up as someone with heroic virtue and when someone is canonized one can officially venerate that person, is that not partly done for the laity to emulate said Saint and pray for that Saint’s intercession”?
Shouldn’t laity know whether something is someone’s opinion or whether it is infallible?
C
ConstantineTG
Guest
Canonizations are infallible. Thats why its called “canonization”.
M
Marie5890
Guest
TrueLight,
I just wanted you to know I share in your frustration (for me it’s also exasperation at times).
I call it “hitting the wall” …like this… :banghead:
I have no insight in how one is deal w/ it either.
It’s lonely sometimes when one finds themselves in that spot. At least for me.
God Bless.
J
JReducation
Guest
Don’t get me wrong. You’ll get an answer. These are not dark secrets. It would just take these folks by surprise that anyone would ask, because it’s not an everyday issue as are raising a good Christian family, prayer, penance, social responsibility, catechesis, good marriages, and so forth.
Lay people certanly count, but as Archibishop Chaput says, each state in life has a place and a mission. It’s like a big puzzle where each stae in life is part of the whole. This is what Paul was talking about when he spoke about the parts of the body.
As to whether something is a matter of opinion, Aquinas makes it clear for us. The Church cannot hold up for imitation the virtues of someone who is not a saint. Even when she does not infallibly command a cult to the person, once she proclaims him Blessed, he is worthy of imitation and devotion.
Unless you’re being commanded to sin, always trust the Holy Father.
Fraternally,
Br. JR, OSF
T
TrueLight
Guest
Okay, my brother in Christ.Don’t get me wrong. You’ll get an answer. These are not dark secrets. It would just take these folks by surprise that anyone would ask, because it’s not an everyday issue as are raising a good Christian family, prayer, penance, social responsibility, catechesis, good marriages, and so forth.
Lay people certanly count, but as Archibishop Chaput says, each state in life has a place and a mission. It’s like a big puzzle where each stae in life is part of the whole. This is what Paul was talking about when he spoke about the parts of the body.
As to whether something is a matter of opinion, Aquinas makes it clear for us. The Church cannot hold up for imitation the virtues of someone who is not a saint. Even when she does not infallibly command a cult to the person, once she proclaims him Blessed, he is worthy of imitation and devotion.
Unless you’re being commanded to sin, always trust the Holy Father.
Fraternally,
Br. JR, OSF
I have been ranting from last week. Don’t know what’s wrong with me.
J
JReducation
Guest
Ranting is not good for the digestion.
As I always say, trust the pope, unless he tells you to steal an apple. Then you can politely tell him to steal his own apple.
I guess that for me these things are easy to accept, because Franciscans, Benedictines and Dominicans are formed to be silent and to follow the lead of the Church. We find great peace in this way of living. All of these things become someone else’s worries. We simply learn, observe and move on. It’s very peaceful, because you are able to maintain your inner silence.
If one finds oneself ranting, it means that one has to step away from all the questions, disputes, debates, discussiong and everything else the triggers those inner voices in order to recover silence. It’s good to take time away from all of this to pray, read, rest and do other things.
Fraternally,
Br. JR, OSF
T
TrueLight
Guest
Yes, you’re right.It’s good to take time away from all of this to pray, read, rest and do other things.
Fraternally,
Br. JR, OSF
P
passer_by
Guest
Ok so let me understand the logic behind what you say.
The beatification = the person is definitely in heaven and that is infallibly known because the Church declares them as heroic.
Then what FACT does the infallibility apply to in the Canonization case?
Because if a person is definitely in heaven, then that person is automatically a saint. Whether the Vatican approves or not, one can venerate them, no?
And you have to keep in mind examples like Saint Acacius the Martyr were dropped from the calendar because it was discovered that they never existed.
So I would like to hear a direct answer. What is declared infallibly in the event of a Canonization? If you are not sure, just say so.
J
JReducation
Guest
The were some “saints” dropped from the liturgical calendar, because the Church could not verify if they really lived or if they were legend. If they lived, they are not harmed, because they’re dropped. It does not change their state. For this reason, this was not a tragedy.
At a canonization the pope commands the faithful to venerate a particular person as a saint. He is not simply allowiing it. He is binding the Church to veneration. By invoking the authority of Peter the pope guarrantees to the faithful that the command is free of error.
Put in another way, if the person is worthy of veneration and the pope invokes the authority of Peter to command it, there should be no doubt in our mind that this must be done, because it is the will of God.
At a beatification the pope allows the faithful to venerate. It’s up to them.
The difference between the two is the intent of the pope. Beatification allows, canonization commands with the authority of Peter.
Fraternally,
Br. JR, OSF
P
passer_by
Guest
Ok, I will think about this more. I think I see what you are saying now.The were some “saints” dropped from the liturgical calendar, because the Church could not verify if they really lived or if they were legend. If they lived, they are not harmed, because they’re dropped. It does not change their state. For this reason, this was not a tragedy.
At a canonization the pope commands the faithful to venerate a particular person as a saint. He is not simply allowiing it. He is binding the Church to veneration. By invoking the authority of Peter the pope guarrantees to the faithful that the command is free of error.
Put in another way, if the person is worthy of veneration and the pope invokes the authority of Peter to command it, there should be no doubt in our mind that this must be done, because it is the will of God.
At a beatification the pope allows the faithful to venerate. It’s up to them.
The difference between the two is the intent of the pope. Beatification allows, canonization commands with the authority of Peter.
Fraternally,
Br. JR, OSF
J
JReducation
Guest
I think the hangup is the word “infallible”. The proper term to describe a canonization is “Ex Cathedra”. The command is being given from the Chair of Peter.
Does this help?
Fraternally,
Br. JR, OSF
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