Is the popular hymn "Amazing Grace" heretical and unsuitable for Catholic liturgy?

[tweetymom]

I really can’t listen to Amazing Grace anymore, and it’s not because of it’s doctrinal difficulties.

It was made know to me that you can sing the words to “Gilligan’s Island” to the tune of Amazing Grace.

So I my lips start with “sit right back and you’ll hear a tale, a tale of a fateful trip”

Tried it don’t work:shrug:

 

[Digitonomy]

The first year CAF started, Karl Keating posted on a similar thread against the imprudence of this song.

Here’s that thread. It’s apparently one of his pet peeves; he also mentioned it in a couple of his E-letters.

 

[Lepanto]

what does that have to do with anything:shrug:

It has everything to do with it.

The importance of doctrinal orthodoxy in the music used at Catholic liturgies should be self-evident.

 

[MusicMan]

Wait a minute…don’t misunderstand me…there are plenty of hymns that use “bread” and not “bread of life”, or at least in that contest. There have been many hymns that have been slammed on the CAF for that very reason i.e. that the laity might get the idea that it’s merely bread (after consecration).

So, yes, my argument has basis.

Three of the main four Eucharistic Prayers use the term “bread” after the consecration. EP I says “bread of life,” EP II says, “live-giving bread, this saving cup,” EP IV says, “and by your Holy Spirit, gather all who share this one bread and one cup,” which is the least descriptive use. Perhaps we need to reword these prayers lest the laity get the idea that it’s merely bread.

 

[Cristiano]

I love the song and I do not really see it as an expression of heretical doctrine, but as a poetic form of a human being trying to express his feeling of gratitude toward God. When properly sung it is great, I really love Elvis Presley singing it.

Having said that, I do not thing that it belongs in the liturgical contest at all. The liturgy is too well defined to allow informal and doctrinally incorrect forms of expressions.

 

[recidite_plbs]

I think some context would be useful here.

I live in the town of Olney in Buckinghamshire, where John Newton became the Vicar and wrote along with his friend and poet Wlliam Cowper and my house looks down the banks of the river Ouse onto the church of SS Peter & Paul where Newton was the curate. Hence, we know a fair bit in the town about Newton, the Olney hymns, the prevalence of the dissenting chapels, and Newton’s opposition to slavery.

The hymn is written as a telling of Newton’s personal conversion. His parents were dissenters (i.e. evangelicals who dissented from the CofE’s rules on church attendance and specifically the support of the Restoration, they tended to have a much greater social conscience than the CofE which was often locally patronised by the upper classes who often lacked much of what could be described as socially responsible awareness). Newton was a slave ship captain and was nearly shipwrecked off the coast of Sierra Leone. While the storm was raging he experienced what he termed his spiritual conversion and Amazing Grace was written in respect of that. The reason that a lot of the language of the hymn is in the first person is because it is the tale of his conversion. Importantly, Olney was a market town (it still is) that had as its main occupation the lace trade. The inhabitants of the town and its surrounds were poor and ill-educated and that is why the language is direct and simple. The hymn is often considered a negro spiritual, however it is likely that it was adopted by the slaves from their time on the ships as Newton continued in the slave trade for some years after his conversion, later having a crisis of conscience that led to him working with William Wilberforce to campaign for the abolition of the slave trade in Britain.

 

[pnewton]

what does that have to do with anything:shrug:

It’s called begging the question. If one believes it is heretical, then it really should be avoided. I think the orthodoxy question misses the point of the song.

 

[A.Pelliccio]

It is beautiful on the pipes and if one attend a Dropkick Murphy’s concert, and that’s it for me.

 

[Lujack]

It has everything to do with it.

The importance of doctrinal orthodoxy in the music used at Catholic liturgies should be self-evident.

Except it is not doctrinally unorthodox, because there is no point in the song where a lyric reads “Amazing Grace how sweet the sound, that saved a wretch like me by grace alone without good works…”

It expresses only the grace side of salvation, but that’s okay. We can pray the Hail Mary and not talk about the Cross without worrying that we’re committing heresy by leaving the Crucifixion out of our prayers. We can walk the Stations of the Cross, and if we don’t ponder the Immaculate Conception, that’s not heresy either. We can pray for the Holy Spirit to come, and not commit heresy by failing to mention the Resurrection.

Like every individual devotion or prayer that exists, it expresses just one part of the Catholic faith. That’s okay. We don’t need to try to express them all at once.

 

[captainbernie]

How about Neil Diamond’s, “Pretty Amazing Grace?” Seems to be the same theme in text, without the biographical background of the author.

 

[Newbie2]

“Appearance of” would be awfully clumsy to work into the lyrics.

Lots of quarter and sixteenth notes.

Three of the main four Eucharistic Prayers use the term “bread” after the consecration. EP I says “bread of life,” EP II says, “live-giving bread, this saving cup,” EP IV says, “and by your Holy Spirit, gather all who share this one bread and one cup,” which is the least descriptive use. Perhaps we need to reword these prayers lest the laity get the idea that it’s merely bread.

Lots of clueless Catholics out there in the pews.

 

[NewEnglandPriest]

I prefer to sing Amazing Grace to the tune of the Gilligan’s Island theme song.

 

[DaveBj]

The doctriinal objections to the second verse are misguided:

'Twas grace that taught my heart to fear,
And grace my fears relieved;
How precious did that grace appear,
The hour I first believed.

Some people object on the basis that the verse depicts faith as preceding grace, but they are not reading the words that are actually there. Newton was saying that when he believed was when he realized how precious the grace of God was. There is certainly nothing heretical about that.

DaveBj

 

[graciesuico]

For me Amazing Grace is really amazing for me. This song is more of personal conviction. I dont think it is heretical. This is a personal encounter with God. John express his joy through the song. I had no problem with these songs. Anyway I am not a theologian so if am wrong …please forgive me.

 

[Newbie2]

I prefer to sing Amazing Grace to the tune of the Gilligan’s Island theme song.

A-mazing Grace, how sweet the sound
the sound of Amazing Grace
how precious did that sound appear
the hour I first believed…

The Grace was a mighty saving Grace
that Grace was true and sure
five thousand got that Grace that day
on a two-thousand year tour
a two-thousand year tour…

The Romans started getting rough
in the Colosseum they were tossed
if not for the power of the saving Grace
their faith it would be lost,
their faith it would be lost…

 

[centurionguard]

I really can’t listen to Amazing Grace anymore, and it’s not because of it’s doctrinal difficulties.

It was made know to me that you can sing the words to “Gilligan’s Island” to the tune of Amazing Grace.

So I my lips start with “sit right back and you’ll hear a tale, a tale of a fateful trip”

This song was sung in my parish at the end of Mass this past Sunday.

However; I have never been able to bridge this music piece belonging strictly in Catholic Liturgy even though some Catholic musicians have made Amazing Grace popular in the music industry. Traditionally this song is more popular in protestant services. I wonder who tried to make this a popular selection of music in the Catholic liturgy? Cafeteria Catholic musicians?

 

[Newbie2]

With Tertullian
Aquinas too
Pope Adrian II and his wife
Professor Jerome and Elizabeth Anne

 

[Corki]

The doctriinal objections to the second verse are misguided:

Some people object on the basis that the verse depicts faith as preceding grace, but they are not reading the words that are actually there. Newton was saying that when he believed was when he realized how precious the grace of God was. There is certainly nothing heretical about that.

DaveBj

And I am one of those who usually object on those grounds. Newman’s experience of realizing the grace is one thing but when most people sing the words, " How precious did that Grace appear The hour I first believed." the understanding could easily be that the Grace appeared once the singer had belief. Thanks for pointing that out, Dave. I was using the “showing up” definition of “appear” rather than the “seems to me” definition.

For me Amazing Grace is really amazing for me. This song is more of personal conviction. I dont think it is heretical. This is a personal encounter with God. John express his joy through the song. I had no problem with these songs. Anyway I am not a theologian so if am wrong …please forgive me.

I think the song is overused and often (usually) sung badly so I can’t say I am a fan of the song in any setting. However, theologically, it wouldn’t be problematic if people understood it to be a reflection of someone’s personal experience set to music. Even then, I question its suitability for Mass since it doesn’t seem to fit any of the categories that Mass music is supposed to fill (gathering, offering, Communion or sending forth).

 

[Corki]

With Tertullian
Aquinas too
Pope Adrian II and his wife
Professor Jerome and Elizabeth Anne

 

[pnewton]

I wonder who tried to make this a popular selection of music in the Catholic liturgy? Cafeteria Catholic musicians?

If someone does not agree with you who call names? As you said: Can you say why you consider it “cafeteria?”