Is the Pre-1955 Holy Week celebrated anywhere?

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Where does the Church say this?

Preference matters, but it’s not the whole story.

The Church asks me to accept that the OF is a valid Catholic rite, legitimately promulgated and celebrated. So I accept it.

I am not aware of the Church asking me to accept that it’s equal to the EF objectively. So I don’t accept that. I cannot explain my reasoning fully because of forum rules, so I won’t get into it further.

But let me use another example: COTT vs CITH. Both within the law. But if Bishop Athanasius Schneider is allowed to criticize one and support the other and if our Holy Father can exclusively give Communion one way and not the other, then I am within my rites also to hold one way is objectively better than another even if both are currently allowed.

Now if I’m wrong and the Church actually teaches a doctrine that the only difference between OF and EF is preference, please cite it. (I’m aware many believe this, but I don’t think this is a doctrine of the Church!)
Your the one pitting the forms against one another. Now you throw in the discipline of how the Eucharist is received.

I feel no need to provide proof that what you say is only your opinion and preference. It is clear that this is what the Church teaches. It is clear that the Church teaches that the EF is no more good than the OF.

As you claim different and it seems to matter to you that everyone believe this I will let you provide proof that your opinion/preference is what you claim it to be.
 
Well I don’t think we should have so many versions. We should have one version, that is best for all (not preference, but for our edification). We should go back to pre-1955 because in the 1955 changes things were changed that were not for the better. If that statement is questionable, it should at least be examined.

Right now we have OF and EF and it’s confusing. I agree it’s not ideal.

Hopefully one day we’ll have just one missal (for the Roman Rite). Some will hope it’s more like the current OF, some will hope it’s more like something else. I pray we’ll get there with unity.
Please tell us your hope isn’t based on wanting to hear this:

“In the form used before 1955 it ran like this:
Let us pray also for the faithless Jews: that Almighty God may remove the veil from their hearts 2 Corinthians 3:13-16; so that they too may acknowledge Jesus Christ our Lord. (‘Amen’ is not responded, nor is said ‘Let us pray’, or ‘Let us kneel’, or ‘Arise’, but immediately is said:) Almighty and eternal God, who dost not exclude from thy mercy even Jewish faithlessness: hear our prayers, which we offer for the blindness of that people; that acknowledging the light of thy Truth, which is Christ, they may be delivered from their darkness. Through the same our Lord Jesus Christ, who liveth and reigneth with thee in the unity of the Holy Spirit, God, for ever and ever. Amen.”
 
Pure opinion/preference. Obviously the Church thinks differently.
Brother, if it is obvious, surely you could provide a source.

There is no source saying this as far as I know.

Looking at it from the opposite view, there are clearly a great number of statements by bishops and theologians on the superiority of the OF (justifying the point of promulgating it in the first place).

If these are legitimately held views, then it must be okay to argue from objective reality and not just preference as they do.
 
Brother, if it is obvious, surely you could provide a source.

There is no source saying this as far as I know.

Looking at it from the opposite view, there are clearly a great number of statements by bishops and theologians on the superiority of the OF (justifying the point of promulgating it in the first place).

If these are legitimately held views, then it must be okay to argue from objective reality and not just preference as they do.
I would say that the source is the fact that we already have the OF and the 1962 EF. The pre-1955 liturgical form was already abandoned before VII and all the changes that gave us the OF. That should be an indication that the Church has already spoke twice in regard to it.
 
Why do these threads, almost always turn into a p’n match between people? Sometimes I get so disgusted I’m ready to dump my membership. :mad:
 
Why do these threads, almost always turn into a p’n match between people? Sometimes I get so disgusted I’m ready to dump my membership. :mad:
I don’t quite follow you with regard to this thread.
 
The post-1955 is seen by many as a stepping stone to the NO. The pre-1955 Holy Week is more expressive of what the Church had done for centuries.

It’s really odd when you think about it that traditional parishes and traditional orders and EFs in diocesan parishes, during Holy Week, are actually using a liturgy that was used for less than 20 years of the Church’s history (1955-1969 or so).

The pre-1955 rites, although there was always minor changes, are very close to what has been used for hundreds of years since the Middle Ages.

Another reason: the post-1955 rites were changed largely under the direction of Annibale Bugnini, who also directed much of the change in the NO under Pope Paul VI. Many people are wary of anything with his hand in it.

To answer the original question: I have heard many say the ICKSP use the pre-1955 rites, though I’ve never seen it myself.
Really? All very interesting. Thanks.
 
Well I don’t think we should have so many versions. We should have one version, that is best for all (not preference, but for our edification). We should go back to pre-1955 because in the 1955 changes things were changed that were not for the better. If that statement is questionable, it should at least be examined.

Right now we have OF and EF and it’s confusing. I agree it’s not ideal.

Hopefully one day we’ll have just one missal (for the Roman Rite). Some will hope it’s more like the current OF, some will hope it’s more like something else. I pray we’ll get there with unity.
I did notice that Divinum Officium has a “reduced” 1955 Office. Know anything about that?
My question still stands. Why should Catholics have an obligation to be informed about the pre-1955 Holy Week?
Not an obligation, but I’m surprised there isn’t more of an interest. One would think that “traditional” Catholics would be very interested in learning more about a form of the Liturgy that was celebrated for centuries (or something similar to it), if that claim is correct.
 
Brother, if it is obvious, surely you could provide a source.

There is no source saying this as far as I know.

Looking at it from the opposite view, there are clearly a great number of statements by bishops and theologians on the superiority of the OF (justifying the point of promulgating it in the first place).

If these are legitimately held views, then it must be okay to argue from objective reality and not just preference as they do.
NYC, I was going to cite Summorum Pontificum that we are obligated to formally hold the two forms of the Roman Rite to be of equal value, but after reading it three times (in translation, EWTN & Father Z) I couldn’t find anything that said that. No sarcasm, I thought we were bound to belief it on that document, but to my eyes it ain’t there.

Also, you raise an excellent point here about the double-standard that is rarely mentioned, in how much people are allowed to say, openly or by implication, that the EF Mass is greatly inferior to the new missal.
 
If we keep requesting older forms of the liturgies to be used, we will end up having too many options, and not be unified in our practices. I believe that Holy Mother Church has stretched quite a bit authorizing the valid use and participation in the EF of the 1962 missal.

You are now asking for the use of the 1955 missal. What if I and others were to then ask to use the version in use in 1776? And then the one in use right after the council of Trent? And so on…

What good and purpose would it be to have so many versions in use?
I think you misunderstand NYC. Many trads would like to see organic liturgical development of a single Roman rite begin again with the 1955 missal (the last pre-Bugnini missal). The best changes since VatII could then be incorporated to that rite and the liturgical calendar could be updated with new saints’ days.

Also, note that NYC is asking this of Holy Mother Church, not advocating the unauthorized adoption of previous missals.
 
Hopefully one day we’ll have just one missal (for the Roman Rite). Some will hope it’s more like the current OF, some will hope it’s more like something else. I pray we’ll get there with unity.
This goes too far in the other direction. “We” never had on missal, or one liturgy. By the 500s, there were already differences between the Greek, Latin and Egyptian rites. The rites said in Armenia were different, and so were the rites said in Jerusalem and Antioch. They were similar to the rite we now call the tridentine, or the EF, but there were important differences.

As the middle ages progressed, western europe adopted the Roman mass in general, with local variations.

What is important about liturgy is the overall form, and especially the tone. Though they are different, one immediately recongnizes an Orthodox DL for what it is, whether it is celebrated in Egypt, Syria, Greece, or Siberia. That is because the tone and structure are unified. A standard missal by itself does not create that kind of harmony.
 
The post-1955 is seen by many as a stepping stone to the NO. The pre-1955 Holy Week is more expressive of what the Church had done for centuries.
And the 1910 Divine Office of Pius XII was the stepping stone for the Liturgy of the Hours as we now know it. Annibale Bugnini borrowed heavily on one major trend it started, dividing of psalms and composing new antiphons out of the blue, for which there was no traditional melodies to chant them. Your point is?
It’s really odd when you think about it that traditional parishes and traditional orders and EFs in diocesan parishes, during Holy Week, are actually using a liturgy that was used for less than 20 years of the Church’s history (1955-1969 or so).
It’s really odd that secular Catholics in 1955 used a Divine Office that was used for less than 45 years of the Church’s history, when a 1400 y.o. traditional Office was still being used by the religious order whose founder designed it. It’s even odder that “traditional” Catholics are using a breviary that removed 15 of 18 Octaves, changed the rubrics substantially, changed the way the antiphon was chanted before and after the psalm, prohibited Vespers from being anticipated before noon during Lent, and I could go on. And it’s especially odd that we complain about the LOTH which has been around for 42 years now, when we don’t complain about the pre-1955 Divine Office (of which the Holy Week reforms significantly modified), which at that time was around for a comparable length of time and had similar innovations to the innovations of 1970.
Another reason: the post-1955 rites were changed largely under the direction of Annibale Bugnini, who also directed much of the change in the NO under Pope Paul VI. Many people are wary of anything with his hand in it.
They should then also be wary of Pius X. He was in fact the one that set several of the precedents that Mgr Bugnini adopted for the 1970 LOTH. Among other things, Pius X:
  • Broke up the Laudate psalms after the OT canticle (ps. 148, 149, 150) every day, which Mgr Bugnini perpetuated
  • Shortened Matins from 12 to 9 psalms or psalm parts; Mgr Bugnini reduced it further to 3 psalms or psalm parts and changed its name
  • Broke up the psalms into more or less equal lengths, a practice that Mgr Bugnini also used liberally
  • Composed new antiphons for the psalm sections, which required composing of new melodies, ditching a 1000 year musical tradition going back to the Carolingian era, which Mgr Bugnini also did, and which meant it took 40 years to be able to finally have proper Gregorian chant books for the LOTH.
Could it simply be that liturgy is a dynamic field? Even today the monks of Solesmes discover new things when interpreting ancient manuscripts, for example changing an antiphon’s melody slightly and making it into a mode VIIIc instead of VIIIg.

With the more important liturgical reforms, ISTM that “feature creep” set into the Liturgy over time. For example the anticipation of Vespers before noon had to do with the lenten fast and the fact that the main meal had to be after Vespers (cf. Rule of St. Benedict, chapter 41). But folks wanted to eat the main meal at mid-day (which sort of makes sense for busy diocesan clergy), so Vespers ended up being anticipated. Which makes no sense and is the result of a Pharisaical reading of the rules.

For that matter the timing of the Divine Office used to be set by the sun and the Rule of St. Benedict even shortened the night office to accommodate a shorter night. The invention of clocks changed all that and the Divine Office migrated to set times and there was no need to shorten the Offices, though the Monastic tradition of shortening the readings of Matins persists in some abbeys.

I really think your arguments about going back to the pre-'55 Holy Week is either some sort of nostalgia for a specific time and place, or simply trying to win an Internet debate. The Church’s hierarchy, in its wisdom, has found over time that the liturgy loses its relevance or meaning, or allows obscure practices to set in that make no sense, or is too heavy a load for diocesan clergy, or requires better translation (and not just into English, with Vatican II also came the Neo-Vulgate Bible that replaced the Vulgate) and decides to clean house a bit. It happened in 1570, 1910, 1955, 1969, 1970, in 2011, and probably at more obscure times in between. It will continue to happen, for better or for worse, irritating the heck out of the faithful everywhere but such is life, people resist change, even changes in place for 100+ years (because there is still resentment over the Pius X reforms…)…

Frankly, in life, one must pick one’s battles, and I think this one, a desire to go back to the pre-55 Holy Week, would result in lots of expended energy for little gain. It is best left to the study of historians, and those of the faithful who enjoy reading about Church history.
 
…Not an obligation, but I’m surprised there isn’t more of an interest. One would think that “traditional” Catholics would be very interested in learning more about a form of the Liturgy that was celebrated for centuries (or something similar to it), if that claim is correct.
First the usage of the term “should” implies a form of obligation from the person using it. Second if you were correct you would find that the sales of the book by Jungman would be 1000X and it would go through a lot of reprints, the same goes for a lot of other books on the liturgies, including the Eastern Liturgies. A Traditional Catholic is first and foremost a Catholic and while I completely understand a preference for the EF I do not buy into the fact that traditional Catholics should spend time picking on the differences between the pre-1955 and 1962 editions. I honestly doubt that the majority of traditional Catholics invests a lot of time in deep liturgical studies. Probably a few scholars on liturgical studies should be doing that kind of comparative analysis.
 
One of the changes which Pope Pius XII made was to allow Mass in the evening. Prior to 1955, Mass could only be celebrated in the morning. Do we really want to go back to Mass only in the morning?

-Tim-
 
Please tell us your hope isn’t based on wanting to hear this:

“In the form used before 1955 it ran like this:
Let us pray also for the faithless Jews: that Almighty God may remove the veil from their hearts 2 Corinthians 3:13-16; so that they too may acknowledge Jesus Christ our Lord. (‘Amen’ is not responded, nor is said ‘Let us pray’, or ‘Let us kneel’, or ‘Arise’, but immediately is said:) Almighty and eternal God, who dost not exclude from thy mercy even Jewish faithlessness: hear our prayers, which we offer for the blindness of that people; that acknowledging the light of thy Truth, which is Christ, they may be delivered from their darkness. Through the same our Lord Jesus Christ, who liveth and reigneth with thee in the unity of the Holy Spirit, God, for ever and ever. Amen.”
Hard words like this require good catechesis to understand, else they just sound uncharitable. The Jewish people get singled out here because God once singled them out to be his chosen people (they still don’t relinquish this claim, so why would they mind being singled out?). Thus, following the writings of St. Paul we see a clear need to pray for their conversion, who first believed in the One, True God but then rejected Him when he came Incarnate.

I can’t help but cringe at the 1970 prayer for the Jews, which strongly implies that the old covenant is a valid alternative to the new covenant founded in Christ.
 
Hard words like this require good catechesis to understand, else they just sound uncharitable. The Jewish people get singled out here because God once singled them out to be his chosen people (they still don’t relinquish this claim, so why would they mind being singled out?). Thus, following the writings of St. Paul we see a clear need to pray for their conversion, who first believed in the One, True God but then rejected Him when he came Incarnate.

I can’t help but cringe at the 1970 prayer for the Jews, which strongly implies that the old covenant is a valid alternative to the new covenant founded in Christ.
Ah but that prayer also requires “good catechesis to understand”.
 
One of the changes which Pope Pius XII made was to allow Mass in the evening. Prior to 1955, Mass could only be celebrated in the morning. Do we really want to go back to Mass only in the morning?

-Tim-
Good point, Tim. It was a legitimate update and it had good parts and I’m sure NYC would acknowledge that. Rather than seeing the Mass frozen in 1954, most trads would like to see it progress from there to 2012 in a way that is more respectful of the rite than the near-complete revision it received in 1970.
 
Ah but that prayer also requires “good catechesis to understand”.
Of course, but when misunderstood the older prayer sounds uncharitable and the newer prayer sound heretical. That’s a major difference.

Perhaps neither is ideal, and anyway it’s up to the Church.
 
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