Is the question of God's existence the most important question of your life?

[Love4All]

I have.

I have not willfully turned away from God

I can not willfully turn away from something that I see no evidence for existing

Once again, the Church does not pronounce anyone doomed, and no poster here has the authority to say, like Charlemagne did, that those who do not believe in God are doomed.

I’ll continue on being a person of honesty and integrity and take my chances at the end

Sarah x

Will you honestly assess new ideas that might change your mind?

 

[meltzerboy]

I have.

I have not willfully turned away from God

I can not willfully turn away from something that I see no evidence for existing

Once again, the Church does not pronounce anyone doomed, and no poster here has the authority to say, like Charlemagne did, that those who do not believe in God are doomed.

I’ll continue on being a person of honesty and integrity and take my chances at the end

Sarah x

Sarah, I think in a sense you already believe in G-d, maybe not with your conscious mind, but through your moral actions and living a life of honesty and integrity. I also believe G-d gave us an intellect with which to reason, and the fact we use that intellect to discuss profound questions such as G-d’s existence is itself a cherished gift from G-d.

 

[atheistgirl]

Will you honestly assess new ideas that might change your mind?

I am always open to discussion and continue to look at ideas and arguments with an open mind.

I would be a complete fool to simply ignore or remain closed minded to evidence of the Supernatural when my eternal soul would be at stake.

And I don’t think I’m a fool, although others opinions may vary

Sarah x

 

[atheistgirl]

and the fact we use that intellect to discuss profound questions such as G-d’s existence is itself a cherished gift from G-d.

That’s an interesting thought.

Sarah x

 

[R_C]

I don’t see how you can even conjecture that hell is love.

I do not see where do I conjecture that I am simply presenting you orthodox Christian teaching to the best of my (very scant) knowledge.

 

[jimmy]

Allow me: you exist. Next question. . .?

Allow me: you’re an idiot. Next post.

 

[aspirant]

So where does the atheist fit into this scenario?

He wants nothing to do with God.

Like the rest of us he sins mortally.

He does not admit his sins and seek forgiveness from God.

In my experience, not all atheists willfully shut out God from their hearts and try to dodge religious questions, as your claim that “he wants nothing to do with God” suggests.

An atheist may not believe that God exists, but it seems to me that an atheist is nevertheless capable of regretting and despising any wrongdoing he or she has committed and being willing to amend. I have known people like this. Doing so might be a reception of and cooperation with God’s grace without the atheist’s explicit awareness/understanding that it is God’s grace with which s/he is cooperating. God knows whether this is possible, but I see no good reason to rule out the possibility.

I am not alone in thinking this. Apparently CA’s Jimmy Akin has proposed something similar:

I am always open to discussion and continue to look at ideas and arguments with an open mind.

I would be a complete fool to simply ignore or remain closed minded to evidence of the Supernatural when my eternal soul would be at stake.

I would argue that this is not a person who willfully shuts out God from her heart and tries to dodge religious questions, as your claim that the atheist “wants nothing to do with God” suggests.

We are talking about WHY the question of God’s existence is the most important question in life.

Looks to me like a lot of people are arguing about whether God exists, which is not really about whether it’s the most important question in a person’s life.

And I don’t think I’m a fool, although others opinions may vary

I think we all are, so it’s nothing personal.

 

[Charlemagne_II]

aspirant
**
An atheist may not believe that God exists, but it seems to me that an atheist is nevertheless capable of regretting and despising any wrongdoing he or she has committed and being willing to amend. I have known people like this. Doing so might be a reception of and cooperation with God’s grace without the atheist’s explicit awareness/understanding that it is God’s grace with which s/he is cooperating.**

But our sins must be forgiven by the God to who we address our sins. If we say we do not believe, we cannot say we have sought forgiveness from the only one Who can forgive us. Also, if we have not adored God before we pass into eternity, we have violated the 1st and greatest commandment. This commandment is not just from Moses. It was planted in our hearts from our creation. We cannot deny this urge to love god without damning ourselves.

Obviously any atheist who has not turned back to God before dying is doomed. This is not me speaking. I do not get to decide who goes to heaven and who goes to hell. But it’s what we believe … some in their pride go to hell, others in their humility to heaven. This is what we believe. There is no hidden clause that excuses our desire not to have anything to do with God. It is pride only, absolute and obstinate pride. This is the same pride of Satan … desiring to rule forever in hell rather than serve in heaven.

 

[aspirant]

But our sins must be forgiven by the God to who we address our sins.

An atheist may not believe that God exists, but an atheist is nevertheless capable of regretting and despising any wrongdoing he or she has committed and being willing to amend. And it seems unlikely to me that God would refuse to forgive someone who repents wrongdoing-- even an atheist, given that God “desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.”

if we have not adored God before we pass into eternity, we have violated the 1st and greatest commandment

In order for this to be a mortal sin, three conditions must obtain. It must not only be grave matter (which this is), but also committed with full knowledge and complete consent. We are not in a position to judge whether the latter are present in a particular atheist; God knows, we do not. The Church simply does not teach that each and every atheist is among those who “willfully shut out God from their hearts and try to dodge religious questions.” Indeed, among the things the Church does say about atheism, we find:
"Catechism of the Catholic Church:

2125 Since it rejects or denies the existence of God, atheism is a sin against the virtue of religion. The imputability of this offense can be significantly diminished in virtue of the intentions and the circumstances. “Believers can have more than a little to do with the rise of atheism. To the extent that they are careless about their instruction in the faith, or present its teaching falsely, or even fail in their religious, moral, or social life, they must be said to conceal rather than to reveal the true nature of God and of religion.”

This is not me speaking.

But it is. It is you who are claiming to know, for example, whose sins are mortal and that God refuses forgiveness to atheists who repent without explicit knowledge of God.

There is no hidden clause that excuses our desire not to have anything to do with God.

You are quite wrong, as has already been demonstrated with reference to atheistgirl, to assert that all atheists “desire not to have anything to do with God.” What you’re claiming is not the teaching of the Church, it is your own personal assertion.

More from Michelle Arnold.

And from the Church:
Dogmatic Constitution on the Church:

Those also can attain to salvation who through no fault of their own do not know the Gospel of Christ or His Church, yet sincerely seek God and moved by grace strive by their deeds to do His will as it is known to them through the dictates of conscience. Nor does Divine Providence deny the helps necessary for salvation to those who, without blame on their part, have not yet arrived at an explicit knowledge of God and with His grace strive to live a good life. Whatever good or truth is found amongst them is looked upon by the Church as a preparation for the Gospel. She knows that it is given by Him who enlightens all men so that they may finally have life.

 

[Charlemagne_II]

aspirant

In my experience, not all atheists willfully shut out God from their hearts and try to dodge religious questions, as your claim that “he wants nothing to do with God” suggests.

Sir, I sadly have been an atheist myself for a great many years, so please don’t try to tell me from your theological ivory tower what and atheist wants or does not want.

An atheist may not believe that God exists, but it seems to me that an atheist is nevertheless capable of regretting and despising any wrongdoing he or she has committed and being willing to amend.

This is certainly no sufficient as a remedy for our sins! If it were, you would be negating the necessity of embracing the Christ who calls out for our friendship. Theoretically, by your solution, all atheists could go to heaven so long as the regret their wrongdoing. That is not possible except by seeking god’s forgiveness. What graduate school in theology gave you your theology degree?

I have known people like this. Doing so might be a reception of and cooperation with God’s grace without the atheist’s explicit awareness/understanding that it is God’s grace with which s/he is cooperating. God knows whether this is possible, but I see no good reason to rule out the possibility.

You are throwing out a mere possibility? Well, I guess if a man were drowning in water (as opposed to drowning in his sins) I could throw out to him a possible inner tube. I should not like, however, to have thrown him a possible anchor by mistake!

 

[Love4All]

I do not see where do I conjecture that I am simply presenting you orthodox Christian teaching to the best of my (very scant) knowledge.

Can you find me, from a source, where it says that God loves the souls in hell?

 

[ThinkingSapien]

aspirant
aspirant;10589217:

In my experience, not all atheists willfully shut out God from their hearts and try to dodge religious questions, as your claim that “he wants nothing to do with God” suggests.

Sir, I sadly have been an atheist myself for a great many years, so please don’t try to tell me from your theological ivory tower what and atheist wants or does not want.

I think you can tell us what you did or did not want. As stated earlier in this thread, what is applicable to you may not be applicable to all other [atheist]. ([psychological projection](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychological_projection)?).
At any rate, carry on…

 

[Love4All]

aspirant

In my experience, not all atheists willfully shut out God from their hearts and try to dodge religious questions, as your claim that “he wants nothing to do with God” suggests.

Sir, I sadly have been an atheist myself for a great many years, so please don’t try to tell me from your theological ivory tower what and atheist wants or does not want.

Being an atheist is nothing at all like being a Catholic. As a Catholic, I can rightly say about some things, “all Catholics believe. . .” and anyone who disagrees only manifests their lack of Catholicism, not an error in my statement.

As a former atheist, however, you do not have any authority whatsoever to declare, “all atheists believe. . .” about anything. You have only the experience of one atheist, yourself in the past. Other’s motives for their atheism are to you necessarily opaque, unless they reveal them to you. You have no authority to declare “what atheists believe.”

And it is very certainly a transparent pretense on your part to put down someone who is not atheist when they point that out to you and declare, essentially, “it’s an atheist thing, you wouldn’t understand.”

The one thing that atheists in general hammer down believer’s throats who converse with them is, precisely, that they have nothing whatever in common except their lack of belief in God (and most add, “or gods.”)

 

[Love4All]

Allow me: you’re an idiot. Next post.

My bad, I could have sworn you said,

"The question of my own existence has been the most important question of my life. The fact that I exist is the most absurd idea that has ever occurred to me. The question of God’s existence is dependent on that question. "

Damn hallucinations! Sorry. Carry on!

 

[jimmy]

My bad, I could have sworn you said,

"The question of my own existence has been the most important question of my life. The fact that I exist is the most absurd idea that has ever occurred to me. The question of God’s existence is dependent on that question. "

Damn hallucinations! Sorry. Carry on!

If you don’t have the brain to think about what someone says, don’t bother responding. Rather than saying something stupid and condescending, and consequently making yourself look like an idiot, you should keep your mouth shut.

 

[wittgenstein]

How is the question of God’s existence dependent on you existing? That implies that if you did not exist the question “does God exist” would be meaningless. Is God’s existence somehow dependent on us existing? I don’t think so.
It may be a subtle difference but there is a difference between epistemology and ontology.

 

[Love4All]

If you don’t have the brain to think about what someone says, don’t bother responding. Rather than saying something stupid and condescending, and consequently making yourself look like an idiot, you should keep your mouth shut.

What you stated, is this: “The fact that I exist is the most absurd idea that has ever occurred to me. The question of God’s existence is dependent on that question.”

So, judging only from what you’ve said, you find the idea that you exist absurd, and, you treat it as a question. Forgive me, I must be very very stupid, and I am displaying my ignorance here no doubt, but I cannot apprehend the question you say exists in the statement, “The fact that I exist is the most absurd idea that has ever occurred to me,” in any other way than, “Do I really exist?” (How bizarre! How incomprehensibly absurd!)

The fact that you exist may indeed be stupid. But I didn’t claim it was. You are the one who called my assurance to you that you do, in fact, exist, “stupid and condescending.”

It seemed to me you were struggling with the question of whether or not you really exist, and I wanted to assure you that, from my vantage point, yes you do. And since, according to you and your words again, the topic question is dependent on that question, I wanted to give you the right answer to “that question,” so that, perhaps, having got that rather sticky dilemma out of the way, you could maybe tackle the topic question.

Or, alternatively, we could continue this fairly useless, if mildly interesting, diversion from topic.

I, for my part, find my own existence unquestionable, so not really a question, let alone a question on which the other question of God’s existence might rely. “Absurd,” to me, may imply many other things, but “true” is not among them. Something may be true, or it may be absurd, but not both. So yes, to be perfectly blunt, your statement of your perception of the absurdity of the idea that you yourself exist, itself struck me as patently absurd, so I decided to have a little fun with it. No offense meant.

 

[R_C]

Can you find me, from a source, where it says that God loves the souls in hell?

It goes with the term “unconditional love”. I’ll post better sources, but for now, this, for instance.

 

[wittgenstein]

Perhaps what Jimmy meant to say was that anything existing is such a profound mystery that only God can be a reasonable explanation. To be fair, I also sometimes express myself awkwardly.

 

[Love4All]

It goes with the term “unconditional love”. I’ll post better sources, but for now, this, for instance.

More support for the motion that God’s Love is unconditional isn’t going to cut it. What I was asking about was the souls in hell.

There are possibly as many different descriptions of love as there are individuals in the world. Saint Paul gives not less than sixteen individual points describing it. To take one as an example, “love is kind.”

Now, the condition of the souls in hell is that,

Revelation 20:10 they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

How is that “kind?”

If you can go to that list from Saint Paul, 1 Corinthians 13, and produce from it one descriptive adjective that would be applicable to God’s treatment of the souls in hell, I will thank you and retract my assertion.