G
gurrato_alaien
Guest
Why should he have a son?
He can forgive to the people’s sins without sending a son to die for them, can he?
Peace.
- Status
He can forgive to the people’s sins without sending a son to die for them, can he?
Peace.
M
melbourne_guy
Guest
gurrato alaien:
Its called a sacrafice. I just wanted a reason why he couldnt have a son (like so many muslims say), its not pyshically impossible for him so why not?
G
Ghosty
Guest
gurrato alaien:
Oh man, I never thought I’d live to see the day that Landover Baptist was quoted as an authoritative response. I might just send a link to this thread to them.
For those that don’t know, they’re like The Onion, but as a play on Fundamentalist Protestants rather than mainstream media.
Here’s the “bio” of the character who wrote that sermon.
Here’s an example of their “witnessing for Christ”.
The second article is equally laughable, because we ARE Catholics here, and we can tell you we don’t worship Mary as a god. If we worshipped Mary, we wouldn’t be afraid to admit it to you. After all, we’re the ones who say Jesus was God, and bow down and worship a “piece of bread” every Sunday. Trust me, if we worshipped Mary as a god, we’d let the whole world know!
Peace and God bless!
You quoted LANDOVER BAPTIST!!! That’s a PARODY website! It’s a JOKE!
Oh man, I never thought I’d live to see the day that Landover Baptist was quoted as an authoritative response. I might just send a link to this thread to them.
For those that don’t know, they’re like The Onion, but as a play on Fundamentalist Protestants rather than mainstream media.
Here’s the “bio” of the character who wrote that sermon.
Here’s an example of their “witnessing for Christ”.
The second article is equally laughable, because we ARE Catholics here, and we can tell you we don’t worship Mary as a god. If we worshipped Mary, we wouldn’t be afraid to admit it to you. After all, we’re the ones who say Jesus was God, and bow down and worship a “piece of bread” every Sunday. Trust me, if we worshipped Mary as a god, we’d let the whole world know!
Peace and God bless!
J
Joseph_Alison
Guest
Salaam inJESUS.
In these verses, the holy Qur’an is depicting a scene from the Judgment Day
Those presents at the scene: “And behold! ** Allah **said: "O **Jesus ** the son of Mary! Didst thou say unto men…?” The term **men **here is the sense of people, from the Arabic word ناس (naass).
These men have been judged by Allah (SWT) and they have accused Jesus (PBUH) to have told them to take him and his mother as gods rather than Allah (we covered the mother side in another thread some months ago). To that accusation Allah (SWT) answered by allowing Jesus (PBUH) to defend himself, by relaying to him (in front of the men) what they said about him for their own defense: “Did you say to men worship me and my mother as gods in derogation of Allah…” In others words, here is what these men, (for their own defense), have accused you to have said, Did you say such a thing?
Allah (SWT) could have answered to the men it was not true what they were saying about Jesus, because He knew Jesus did not say what they claim, but this is a judgment day , Jesus (PBUH) has been accused personally and he must defend himself personally, Allah (SWT) wants the men to hear directly from him, the only way is to allow him to take his own defense in front of his accusers, which he did eloquently. On the judgment day, no one speaks except by Allah’s authorization: “…none shall speak except any who is permitted by (Allah) Most Gracious, and He will say what is right. (Qur’an 78:38)
At first, Jesus (PBUH) is astonished by such a charge against him by the people “Glory to Thee! Never could I say what I had no right (to say)” He then went on to defend himself saying: You know what I don’t even utter “Thou know what is in my heart…” leave alone what they accused me to have said loudly “Had I said such a thing, You would have known it”.
Jesus (PBUH) finished his defense saying about those who accused him: “If Thou dost punish them (the men), they are Thy servant: If Thou dost forgive them, Thou art the Exalted in power, the Wise” (Qur’an 5:118).
Allah (SWT) opened for us a window on the unseen; this is exactly how it would happen.
PS: the question of Mary being taken as god has been covered in another thread months ago, I will look for the thread and post its link, Incha’Allah.
Salaam.
Joseph.
G
gurrato_alaien
Guest
may you forgot to read the rest of the article, please read:
While it is true that most Christians TODAY do not worship Mary, but MANY heretical Christians THROUGHOUT HISTORY HAD DONE SO.
Regarding Sura 5 Verse 116 :
“And behold! Allah will say: O Jesus the son of Mary! Didst thou say unto men, Take me and my mother for two gods beside Allah? He will say: Glory to Thee! Never could I say what I had no right (to say). Had I said such a thing, Thou wouldst indeed have known it. Thou knowest what is in my heart, though I know not what is in Thine. For Thou knowest in full all that is hidden.”
The above question will be put to Jesus(peace be upon him) on the DAY OF JUDGEMENT. And the purpose of Sura 5 Verse 116 is to answer ALL the Christians THROUGHOUT the entire history of Christianity.
Let us not forget that ALL mankind since the beginning of time will be resurrected on the Day of Judgement. Therefore it is only logical to answer the dilemma faced, not only by the Christians in our present era but by all Christians throughout the history of Christianity.
Let us also not forget that Christianity has never been a united religion and will never be. On the contrary, it has always been a totally divided religion. Just read the history of Christianity and you will know.
What one Church teaches is significantly different from what another Church teaches.
That is why Sura 5 Verse 116 states:
“And behold … Didst thou say unto men, Take me( to answer all the Christians throughout history ) and my mother ( to answer those Christians in history who worshipped Mary )for two gods beside Allah?”
R
Rodrigo_Bivar
Guest
Joseph and gurrato,
It doesn’t matter when the event is supposed to occur. The verse is in the future tense. That is already acknowledged in the translation.
Maulana Ali And when Allah WILL SAY…
What you have to explain is why Allah would ask Jesus whether he told the people to worship him and Mary as Gods min dooni Allah. That would surely be in the past – during Jesus’s lifetime.
Thus, it doesn’t matter when the question is posed to Jesus because the issue already occurred IN THE PAST.
Maulana Ali And when Allah WILL say: O Jesus, son of Mary, didst thou say to men, Take me and my mother for two gods besides Allah? He WILL say: Glory be to Thee! it WAS NOT for me to say what I HAD NO right to (say). If I HAD SAID it, Thou wouldst indeed HAVE known it. Thou knowest what is in my mind, and I know not what is in Thy mind. Surely Thou art the great Knower of the unseen.
This is emphasized in the next verse:
“Never SAID I to them aught except what Thou didst command me to say; and I WAS a witness over them whilst I dwelt amongst them; when Thou didst take me up Thou wast the Watcher over them, and Thou art a witness to all things” (Qur’an 5:117).
We know Jesus DID NOT tell the people to worship him and Mary as Gods. This is because it is clearly against his teaching in the Bible and also because he denied it in the Quran.
What is important is that Muhammad thought the Trinity comprised of Jesus, Mary and Allah (being the third of three – 5:73).
It is clear in the Sira that the supposed revelation from Allah was after the visit by the three Christians who told Muhammad about the Trinity. Clearly, either the Christians were pulling his leg, did not understand doctrine, or were heretics.
There is no logical reason why Allah should ask Jesus IN THE FUTURE about something he obviously didn’t do in the PAST.
The only plausible reason is that Muhammad needed to reconcile to his followers the Christian doctrine of the Trinity in a monotheistic religion that was succeeded by Islam.
Don’t forget that Muhammad claimed the Jewish and Christian prophets as part of Islam. He also claimed that the Jewish God and the Christian God is the same as Allah. Therefore, there is a doctrine he didn’t understand – so he invented a verse whereby Jesus denies ever teaching the Christians the concept of the Trinity. But in so doing, and as he didn’t understand the doctrine, he made the error of telling Muslims that the Trinity was Jesus, Mary and Allah.
Forget the point about the Judgment Day. I already knew that and I’ve explained that it is IRRELEVANT. The action was supposed to have happened in the PAST, not on Judgment Day.
Ciubate,
Rodrigo
It doesn’t matter when the event is supposed to occur. The verse is in the future tense. That is already acknowledged in the translation.
Maulana Ali And when Allah WILL SAY…
What you have to explain is why Allah would ask Jesus whether he told the people to worship him and Mary as Gods min dooni Allah. That would surely be in the past – during Jesus’s lifetime.
Thus, it doesn’t matter when the question is posed to Jesus because the issue already occurred IN THE PAST.
Maulana Ali And when Allah WILL say: O Jesus, son of Mary, didst thou say to men, Take me and my mother for two gods besides Allah? He WILL say: Glory be to Thee! it WAS NOT for me to say what I HAD NO right to (say). If I HAD SAID it, Thou wouldst indeed HAVE known it. Thou knowest what is in my mind, and I know not what is in Thy mind. Surely Thou art the great Knower of the unseen.
This is emphasized in the next verse:
“Never SAID I to them aught except what Thou didst command me to say; and I WAS a witness over them whilst I dwelt amongst them; when Thou didst take me up Thou wast the Watcher over them, and Thou art a witness to all things” (Qur’an 5:117).
We know Jesus DID NOT tell the people to worship him and Mary as Gods. This is because it is clearly against his teaching in the Bible and also because he denied it in the Quran.
What is important is that Muhammad thought the Trinity comprised of Jesus, Mary and Allah (being the third of three – 5:73).
It is clear in the Sira that the supposed revelation from Allah was after the visit by the three Christians who told Muhammad about the Trinity. Clearly, either the Christians were pulling his leg, did not understand doctrine, or were heretics.
There is no logical reason why Allah should ask Jesus IN THE FUTURE about something he obviously didn’t do in the PAST.
The only plausible reason is that Muhammad needed to reconcile to his followers the Christian doctrine of the Trinity in a monotheistic religion that was succeeded by Islam.
Don’t forget that Muhammad claimed the Jewish and Christian prophets as part of Islam. He also claimed that the Jewish God and the Christian God is the same as Allah. Therefore, there is a doctrine he didn’t understand – so he invented a verse whereby Jesus denies ever teaching the Christians the concept of the Trinity. But in so doing, and as he didn’t understand the doctrine, he made the error of telling Muslims that the Trinity was Jesus, Mary and Allah.
Forget the point about the Judgment Day. I already knew that and I’ve explained that it is IRRELEVANT. The action was supposed to have happened in the PAST, not on Judgment Day.
Ciubate,
Rodrigo
J
Joseph_Alison
Guest
gurrato alaien:
D
discipleofJesus
Guest
"**More confusion
The Trinity:** In several passages the Qur’an speaks out specifically against “some kind of trinity” [e.g. Sura 5:72-73 and 5:116-118] and believing in it is supposedly one of the worst sins you can commit [shirk = joining other gods with Allah] and it is so bad, that it leads with certainty to hell fire without escape [5:72].
Christians believe that the doctrine of the Trinity is clearly based on the Biblical revelation only. Every reasonable Christian will agree that it took some time of theological reflection on this revelation until the Church came up with a clearly formulated doctrine, but this doctrine is based on the Bible and nothing else.
But even if it were a corruption and not Biblical revelation, - or a doctrine based on a corrupted Bible - the doctrine of the Trinity was finally and clearly formulated about 325 A.D. at the Council of Nicea in the Nicean creed. Since then it has been well publicized and is still the same today. This means especially that doctrine of the Trinity was clearly spelled out about 300 years before Muhammad and the appearance of the Qur’an.
For any religion, it is obviously of utmost importance to be right on the nature of God. Therefore, if it is God’s intention to correct the Christian corruptions and heretical abberations of the true understanding of Himself by this new revelation through the Qur’an, why does the Qur’an get it so woefully wrong? Why is the Qur’an so concerned to condemn a “tri-theism of God, Mary and Jesus”, which no Christian believes in anyway, instead of clearifying the mistake in regard to the true Christian doctrine being the “Trinity of God Father, Son and Holy Spirit”? Why condemn something that is just as blasphemous to Christians as it is to Muslims? The Christian Church has never believed in that.
**There seem to be some traces of the existance of a heretical group who did believe that Mary was divine which existed in Arabia in the 6th - 7th century. But they were a very small and insignificant group and it is very hard to get much detail about them at all. There is some information about them in the book “God is One in the Holy Trinity” by Zachariah Butros.[1] But in the relationship to the total of Christianity which was the dominant religion this sectarian group was negligable and was to disappear soon.
The question we have to ask is: Why would God choose to speak out in his final and universal revelation against some absolutely insignificant heretical group while totally ignoring the related central doctrine of the largest religion on earth [in Muhammad’s time and today] and at the same time give the impression that he speaks to correct the errors of the CHRISTIANS?
Why is the Qur’an putting in the effort to correct the heretical views of some small sect we really know very little about, and does not answer to the real doctrine of the Christian church? **
This observation is particularly strange since those heresies have already been denounced and corrected by the Church herself. **After all, the Qur’an DOES insist to be the last (final) and COMPLETE revelation - why is it not dealing with and answering to the very thing it supposedly was coming to correct? **
Was God confused and ill-informed about the Christian faith he wanted to correct? I don’t think the true God could plead ignorance after having looked at this Christian doctrine for 300 years prior to the giving of the Qur’an.
It appears to me, we again only have the choice between a Qur’an coming from a confused God or a confused Qur’an that is not coming from the true and all-knowing God.
The first option is obviously a blasphemous thought. God indeed is the All-knowing. I can only think of the following possible and (more or less) reasonable explanations to account for this seemingly “confused revelation”:
Excerpted from “More confusion”
by Jochen Katz (some bold and underline emphasis mine)
answering-islam.org/Why-not/13trinity.html
click on the link to read the rest of the article
( part of Jochen Katz’s “My Questions to Muslims”
answering-islam.org/Why-not/index.html )
The Trinity:** In several passages the Qur’an speaks out specifically against “some kind of trinity” [e.g. Sura 5:72-73 and 5:116-118] and believing in it is supposedly one of the worst sins you can commit [shirk = joining other gods with Allah] and it is so bad, that it leads with certainty to hell fire without escape [5:72].
Christians believe that the doctrine of the Trinity is clearly based on the Biblical revelation only. Every reasonable Christian will agree that it took some time of theological reflection on this revelation until the Church came up with a clearly formulated doctrine, but this doctrine is based on the Bible and nothing else.
But even if it were a corruption and not Biblical revelation, - or a doctrine based on a corrupted Bible - the doctrine of the Trinity was finally and clearly formulated about 325 A.D. at the Council of Nicea in the Nicean creed. Since then it has been well publicized and is still the same today. This means especially that doctrine of the Trinity was clearly spelled out about 300 years before Muhammad and the appearance of the Qur’an.
For any religion, it is obviously of utmost importance to be right on the nature of God. Therefore, if it is God’s intention to correct the Christian corruptions and heretical abberations of the true understanding of Himself by this new revelation through the Qur’an, why does the Qur’an get it so woefully wrong? Why is the Qur’an so concerned to condemn a “tri-theism of God, Mary and Jesus”, which no Christian believes in anyway, instead of clearifying the mistake in regard to the true Christian doctrine being the “Trinity of God Father, Son and Holy Spirit”? Why condemn something that is just as blasphemous to Christians as it is to Muslims? The Christian Church has never believed in that.
**There seem to be some traces of the existance of a heretical group who did believe that Mary was divine which existed in Arabia in the 6th - 7th century. But they were a very small and insignificant group and it is very hard to get much detail about them at all. There is some information about them in the book “God is One in the Holy Trinity” by Zachariah Butros.[1] But in the relationship to the total of Christianity which was the dominant religion this sectarian group was negligable and was to disappear soon.
The question we have to ask is: Why would God choose to speak out in his final and universal revelation against some absolutely insignificant heretical group while totally ignoring the related central doctrine of the largest religion on earth [in Muhammad’s time and today] and at the same time give the impression that he speaks to correct the errors of the CHRISTIANS?
Why is the Qur’an putting in the effort to correct the heretical views of some small sect we really know very little about, and does not answer to the real doctrine of the Christian church? **
This observation is particularly strange since those heresies have already been denounced and corrected by the Church herself. **After all, the Qur’an DOES insist to be the last (final) and COMPLETE revelation - why is it not dealing with and answering to the very thing it supposedly was coming to correct? **
Was God confused and ill-informed about the Christian faith he wanted to correct? I don’t think the true God could plead ignorance after having looked at this Christian doctrine for 300 years prior to the giving of the Qur’an.
It appears to me, we again only have the choice between a Qur’an coming from a confused God or a confused Qur’an that is not coming from the true and all-knowing God.
The first option is obviously a blasphemous thought. God indeed is the All-knowing. I can only think of the following possible and (more or less) reasonable explanations to account for this seemingly “confused revelation”:
- The Qur’an has been changed and corrupted. The Qur’an indeed corrected the “real but false Christian doctrine” with clear words but some evil people [Christians?] did change the Qur’an to cover it up in order to render the Qur’an ineffective against Christianity.
- The Qur’an is unchanged but it did not originate from the all-knowing God in the first place but instead from a source that was indeed not well-informed in regard to the true doctrine of the Trinity.
Excerpted from “More confusion”
by Jochen Katz (some bold and underline emphasis mine)
answering-islam.org/Why-not/13trinity.html
click on the link to read the rest of the article
( part of Jochen Katz’s “My Questions to Muslims”
answering-islam.org/Why-not/index.html )
B
Booklover
Guest
discipleofJesus said:
That last one definitely gets my vote! It probably originated from the best selling author of the 7th century!
Vickie
J
Joseph_Alison
Guest
Salaam Rodrigo;
Rodrigo Bivar:
The polemics want desperately to make the term min dooni in 5:116 to mean equality, and it is simply not.
In 5:116, Allah (SWT) -in the Judgment Day- is simply relaying an accusation made by the men towards Jesus (PBUH); actually what they accused him for never took place and he rightfully and eloquently denied the charge against him.
How can polemics say Muhammad (PBUH) got the trinity wrong or don’t know what Christians worship when the event did not even take place but is only an accusation made the Judgment Day, and which Jesus (PBUH) himself refuted in Allah’s foreknowledge?
Moreover, in 5:116, Allah (SWT) is talking about himself as to be The God, how can polemics say that in 5:116 Muhammad (PBUH) got the trinity wrong?, Do polemics believe Allah (SWT) to be The God? Do polemics believe Allah (SWT) to be the Father?
The polemics are breaking down opened doors, trying to find a fault where it is not! This is called desperation.
The verse 5:116 is an open window on the unseen, it is not there to be mocked, but a reminder on what will take place for a surety: Jesus (PBUH) will deny to have told men to take him and his mother as gods apart from Allah (SWT). But don’t believe my word, check for yourself if Jesus ever explicitly said “I am God”.
When Allah (SWT) uses the past tense about events yet to happen, it means it is that way that those events will take place. It is an open window on the future. He is allowing us to “see through” what is waiting for us down the road.
Salaam.
Joseph.
Rodrigo Bivar:
My mother tongue is Arabic; I assure you I know what I am talking about.
It is also a synonym of ‘apart from’ like when I say “Nobody knows besides (apart from) Rodrigo”
If you take -whenever Allah (SWT) is cited- the term min dooni to mean “in addition to” or “along with”, you will be automatically talking about idolatry and not equality. Allah (SWT) is the Creator, everything else is created and not worthy of worship or adoration.
The polemics want desperately to make the term min dooni in 5:116 to mean equality, and it is simply not.
In 5:116, Allah (SWT) -in the Judgment Day- is simply relaying an accusation made by the men towards Jesus (PBUH); actually what they accused him for never took place and he rightfully and eloquently denied the charge against him.
How can polemics say Muhammad (PBUH) got the trinity wrong or don’t know what Christians worship when the event did not even take place but is only an accusation made the Judgment Day, and which Jesus (PBUH) himself refuted in Allah’s foreknowledge?
Moreover, in 5:116, Allah (SWT) is talking about himself as to be The God, how can polemics say that in 5:116 Muhammad (PBUH) got the trinity wrong?, Do polemics believe Allah (SWT) to be The God? Do polemics believe Allah (SWT) to be the Father?
The polemics are breaking down opened doors, trying to find a fault where it is not! This is called desperation.
No, it is not trinity. They are not His equal. Allah (SWT) created both of them, how can they be equal to Him?
The verse 5:116 is an open window on the unseen, it is not there to be mocked, but a reminder on what will take place for a surety: Jesus (PBUH) will deny to have told men to take him and his mother as gods apart from Allah (SWT). But don’t believe my word, check for yourself if Jesus ever explicitly said “I am God”.
When Allah (SWT) uses the past tense about events yet to happen, it means it is that way that those events will take place. It is an open window on the future. He is allowing us to “see through” what is waiting for us down the road.
Salaam.
Joseph.
I
inJESUS
Guest
Disciple of Jesus , good posts 
again, why does allah care to “correct” heretical teachings by people we dont even have enough info from, and keep billions of “true” Christians who believe in Father,Son and Holy Spirit?? mohammad did not adress the Holy Spirit, so what is the Trinity that mohammas talked about?
again, why does allah care to “correct” heretical teachings by people we dont even have enough info from, and keep billions of “true” Christians who believe in Father,Son and Holy Spirit?? mohammad did not adress the Holy Spirit, so what is the Trinity that mohammas talked about?
I
inJESUS
Guest
al-Qasas ayat 23-25
Wa lamma warada maa’a Madyana wajada alayhi ummat min an-nas yasquuna wa wajada min duni him imra’atyani tadhudan. Qala maa khatbukuma? Qalata laa nasqii hatta yusdi ar-ri’a wa abuna shaykh kabir. Fa saqaa la huma thumma tawallaa ila az-zilli fa qala Rabbi inni li maa anzalta ilayya min khayrin faqir. Fa ja’at hu ihda huma tamshi ala istihya. Qalat inna abi yad’uka li yajziyaka ajra maa saqayta la na…
And when he [Moses] came to the watering-place of Midian, he found at it a group of people taking water and he found **as well as ** them two women holding back. He said, “What do you two have to say?” They said, “We cannot take water until the shepherds go away and our father is a very old man”. So he took water for them two then he turned back to the shade and he said, “My Lord and Sustainer, surely I am one who needs what Thou mayest send to me of the good”. Then one of the two (women) came towards him, walking shyly. She said, “My father invites you so that he may give you a wage for taking the water for us”…
Wa lamma warada maa’a Madyana wajada alayhi ummat min an-nas yasquuna wa wajada min duni him imra’atyani tadhudan. Qala maa khatbukuma? Qalata laa nasqii hatta yusdi ar-ri’a wa abuna shaykh kabir. Fa saqaa la huma thumma tawallaa ila az-zilli fa qala Rabbi inni li maa anzalta ilayya min khayrin faqir. Fa ja’at hu ihda huma tamshi ala istihya. Qalat inna abi yad’uka li yajziyaka ajra maa saqayta la na…
And when he [Moses] came to the watering-place of Midian, he found at it a group of people taking water and he found **as well as ** them two women holding back. He said, “What do you two have to say?” They said, “We cannot take water until the shepherds go away and our father is a very old man”. So he took water for them two then he turned back to the shade and he said, “My Lord and Sustainer, surely I am one who needs what Thou mayest send to me of the good”. Then one of the two (women) came towards him, walking shyly. She said, “My father invites you so that he may give you a wage for taking the water for us”…
B
Booklover
Guest
Joseph, we’ve heard all these allegations about Jesus not being God ad nauseam!
From what I’ve seen, the trinitarian God is too much God for Muslims to handle! You prefer a petty “Allah” who loves only Muslims and hates everyone else. This gives Muslims a real feeling of security. That is why Muslims can’t grasp the idea that “God loves the sinner but hates the sin”. A God who in his “infinite wisdom” decided to send a final message by such a dubious means as someone’s “private revelations”. “Revelations” that can be manipulated by the so-called prophet at will for his own ends! Very efficient!
Does this sound like the actions of the God who created the whole universe? Or the actions of a God who existed only in the mind of the “prophet” who created him?
Vickie
I
inJESUS
Guest
it is not their mistake; muslims just submit to mohammad’s words…it is mohammads mistake; he didnt ponder enough on such a big truth;
unlike the biblical God
:clapping:
F
Faith101
Guest
B/c its above His majesty to have a son (or a mother, or an aunt or a sister, etc).
The whole idea of God sacrificing something is really absurd.
He is God, he ownes you and me and everything else in this world. He OWNES it, it is His, it belongs to Him. How can God make a sacrifice, and to who? Who would have that something that God sacrificed while God doesnt have it?
I
inJESUS
Guest
G
Ghosty
Guest
Heretical Christians are by definition outside of representing the Faith of the Apostles. In the past they were not even called Christians. If you’re going to discuss Christianity, stick with the Apostolic Churches, the ones actually founded by Apostles, or at the very least their direct off-shoots.
R
r.gonzales
Guest
discipleofJesus said:
strawmen, indeed . . .
no where in the Quran is it claimed that christians “believe” that there are three gods with two gods beside Allah. obviously christians “believe” that Allah is one, hence the rest of the world calling christianity one of the three monotheistic religions; with islam and judaism being the other two.
likewise, no where in the Quran is it claimed that the trinity is made up of Allah, jesus, and mary—or any other trio for that matter.
and such is the confusion with the english language. notice doj’s usage of capitalisation with the word “god” in every instance found in strawman #3. (neverland, take note. this is another instance where something is lost in translation, or at the very least, misunderstood.)
in verse 5:116, Allah tells us of His questioning jesus on judgement day if he told the people to take him and his mother mary as two objects of worship beside Allah. in arabic, the word “ilah”—which is usually translated as “god” (w/lower case g, not “God” w/capital G) or “deity”—literally means “something that is worshipped”. verse 5:116 makes no mention of the trinity. as muhammad mohar ali states in his sirat al-nabi and the orientalists (pg.293):
Indeed it was none of the Qur’an’s business to identify the entities or “Persons” that constituted the Trinity. It simply denounces the concept as antithetical to and subversive of true monotheism. It is the orientalists’, more particularly Watt’s own supposition that the Qur’anic passage which refers to the Christians’ worship of Mary and Jesus, besides God, “suggests that the Trinity consists”, etc.
and as is obvious, many christians throughout history have and do take both jesus and mary as objects of worship. you claim that jesus is Allah, which is something that mentioned (and rejected) in 5:17. there is no such claim made about mary. you will not find the Quran saying that mary is “God”.
as for mary being a god (i.e., an object of worship, and not God, which means the being conceived as the perfect, omnipotent, omniscient originator and ruler of the universe), catholics will claim that they do not worship mary, yet they supplicate to her for intercession. they make graven images and idols of both jesus and mary—and i have witnessed with my own two eyes, catholics prostrating before idols of mary. ibn taimiyyah, one of islam’s greatest scholars states at the beginning of his work al-'uboodiyyah:
worship is a comprehensive name for all of that which Allah loves and is pleased with from the statements and deeds, inward and outward. so prayer, zakaah (charity), fasting, pilgrimage, truthful speech, fulfilment of the trust, righteousness to the parents, joining the ties of kinship, keeping of the covanents, commanding the good and forbidding the reprehensible, striving against the disbelievers and the hypocrites, charitable conduct to the neighbour, the orphan, the wayfarer and the slave from the humans and the animals, supplication and remembrance, recitation [of the Quran], and the liknesses of that from the acts of worship . . .
this is how worship is understood according to islam, so while catholics may think that their supplication, their seeking intercession and their prostration to idols of mary are acts of veneration and honouring, from an islamic point of view, they are acts of worship that are directed to other than Allah, which are considered to be polytheistic. thus, mary has been taken as an object of worship, a deity, a god. again, Allah says, 5:116 – and when Allah said, “o 'eesa son of maryam, did you say to the people, ‘take my mother and i as two gods [objects of worship] before Allah’?” he said, “glorified are You! it is not for me that i say what i have no right to. if i said it then You would surely know it. You know what is in my soul while i do not know what is in my soul. surely You are the great Knower of the things unseen.”
R
r.gonzales
Guest
christians say that God is made up of three persons, the father, the son, and the holy spirit. it is agreed that the father refers to God in heaven, the son refers to jesus, and the holy spirit to the holy spirit which eminates from both. whatever way you look at it, there are three entities, three persons, three individuals. the Quran states, 4:171 – o people of the Book, do not exaggerate in your religion, nor say about Allah except the truth. certainly the anointed one, 'eesa son of maryam, is Allah’s messenger, His word which He cast to maryam, and a spirit from Him. so believe in Allah and His messengers, and do not say three. cease, [it is] better for you. certainly Allah is a single god, glorified is He that there be for Him a son. His is whatever is in the heavens and whatever is in the earth, and it is sufficient with Allah as a Trustee. and: 5:73 – those who said, “surely Allah is the third of three,” certainly have disbelieved. and there is not any god except a single god. and if they did not cease from what they say, certainly a painful punishment will touch those who disbelieved among them. no where does it say that Allah was one of three gods, one of three beings, one of three anything. it simply says one of three. full stop. so while you say God is one in three, you still hold that God is made up of three “persons”: the father, the son and the holy spirit. being that the bible quotes jesus as referring to the father as the One who is in the heavens, who sent him, who he supplicated to and begged, we will say that the father is Allah. and Allah is still, according to your definition of God being three persons, the third of three.
playing semantics . . .
F
Faith101
Guest
Is the idea of God being capable of forgiving us for our sins, simply by us repenting, hard to understand?
I still dont understand how God can “sacrifice” anything…is there something in this universe that He does not own? Is there anything in this world that He had to “give up”?
God does not have a son, regardless of your personal beliefs.
Jesus, peace be upon him, will be a witness against the lies that have been made against him…and he will defend himself.
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