Is the "Real Presence" real? #3

[Jimmy_B]

Is the “Real Presence” real?

I believe that it is real, that Jesus Christ is really present in the Eucharist (Holy Communion) and not merely present “symbolically”.

A belief in the “Real Presence” of Christ in the Holy Eucharist is supported Biblically.

Many “Protestants” and non-Catholic Christians who reject the Eucharist as the “Real Presence” of Jesus Christ, don’t have a problem with the Christian concept that God is both omnipresent and omnipotent, except that is, when it comes to the Eucharist.

Many will accept for example, the belief that God created the Universe, or that God can manifest himself as a “burning bush”, or that the Resurrection occurred, but they do not believe that Jesus can be present in the Holy Eucharist. Where in the Bible, does it say He can’t?

This seems to be a contradiction in beliefs.

Is the “Real Presence” real?

Your Thoughts?

 

[justamoose89]

Many “Protestants” and non-Catholic Christians who reject the Eucharist as the “Real Presence” of Jesus Christ, don’t have a problem with the Christian concept that God is both omnipresent and omnipotent, except that is, when it comes to the Eucharist.

Many will accept for example, the belief that God created the Universe, or that God can manifest himself as a “burning bush”, or that the Resurrection occurred, but they do not believe that Jesus can be present in the Holy Eucharist. Where in the Bible, does it say He can’t?

This seems to be a contradiction in beliefs.

Good call. Just the other day I had a discussion with my best friend (a former Catholic, now non denom protestant) about the real presence. He couldn’t grasp the fact how people can go to communion and just sit down in their seats like nothing happened if Christ is really present in the Eucharist. He says that if one were to receive Christ in a way that Catholics claim, we as individuals would have no choice but to change. He also said that if Christ was really present in the Eucharist, the Eucharist must accompany some sort of visible miracle every time it was consecrated.

I asked him to show me where that was in the Bible

 

[JonNC]

Is the “Real Presence” real?

I believe that it is real, that Jesus Christ is really present in the Eucharist (Holy Communion) and not merely present “symbolically”.

A belief in the “Real Presence” of Christ in the Holy Eucharist is supported Biblically.

Many “Protestants” and non-Catholic Christians who reject the Eucharist as the “Real Presence” of Jesus Christ, don’t have a problem with the Christian concept that God is both omnipresent and omnipotent, except that is, when it comes to the Eucharist.

Many will accept for example, the belief that God created the Universe, or that God can manifest himself as a “burning bush”, or that the Resurrection occurred, but they do not believe that Jesus can be present in the Holy Eucharist. Where in the Bible, does it say He can’t?

This seems to be a contradiction in beliefs.

Is the “Real Presence” real?

Your Thoughts?

Jimmy,

I didn’t respond at first, because I got the feeling you were looking for responses from those who view it as symbolic. I usually point to the Apology of the Augsburg Confession, because its statement is so clear.

The Tenth Article has been approved, in which we confess that we believe, that in the Lord’s Supper the body and blood of Christ are truly and substantially present, and are truly tendered, with those things which are seen, bread and wine, to those who receive the Sacrament. This belief we constantly defend, as the subject has been carefully examined and considered. For since Paul says, 1 Cor. 10:16, that the bread is the communion of the Lord’s body, etc., it would follow, if the Lord’s body were not truly present, that the bread is not a communion of the body, but only of the spirit of Christ. 55] And we have ascertained that not only the Roman Church affirms the bodily presence of Christ, but the Greek Church also both now believes, and formerly believed, the same. For the canon of the Mass among them testifies to this, in which the priest clearly prays that the bread may be changed and become the very body of Christ. And Vulgarius, who seems to us to be not a silly writer, says distinctly that bread is not a mere figure, but 56] is truly changed into flesh.

This is just the first part, but in it Melanchthon, after an affirmative statement, references three things: He references

1. scripture - 1 Corinthians 10:16
2. the clear and ancient teaching of the enitre Church, East and West
3. the fathers, Vularius in this excerpt, then later Cyril

These three offer solid evidence that scripture and the Church have taught, and continue to teach what Christ says in His own words, “take and eat, this is my body”.

Jon

 

[Nicea325]

Is the “Real Presence” real?

I believe that it is real, that Jesus Christ is really present in the Eucharist (Holy Communion) and not merely present “symbolically”.

A belief in the “Real Presence” of Christ in the Holy Eucharist is supported Biblically.

Many “Protestants” and non-Catholic Christians who reject the Eucharist as the “Real Presence” of Jesus Christ, don’t have a problem with the Christian concept that God is both omnipresent and omnipotent, except that is, when it comes to the Eucharist.

Many will accept for example, the belief that God created the Universe, or that God can manifest himself as a “burning bush”, or that the Resurrection occurred, but they do not believe that Jesus can be present in the Holy Eucharist. Where in the Bible, does it say He can’t?

This seems to be a contradiction in beliefs.

Is the “Real Presence” real?

Your Thoughts?

Amen brother! Exactly! I have asked many Christians who deny the Real Presence the same thing about the Eucharist. Why is not possible for Jesus be truly Body,Blood,Soul and Divinity in the Eucharist?

They believe He is the Creator of the Universe,all that is seen and unseen,but Jesus’ Real Presence in the Eucharist is not possible?

Then I hear the same twisted and taken out-of-context verses and early church father writings.

 

[stephe1987]

God is everywhere, so logically he is “really” present at the Mass.

God will not act on demand. We can’t force Him to appear in person, to heal a particular person in the hospital, etc. All we can do is pray. At the Mass, God is with us, but there isn’t a reason why he would be expected to perform a miracle just because we choose to have a Mass at that particular moment.

Also, God doesn’t “force” people to do anything. So there wouldn’t be a reason why people would have a particular set of beliefs by attending Mass. If he did, we would not have free will and not be human. We would be robots.

 

[benidict]

God is everywhere, so logically he is “really” present at the Mass.

God will not act on demand. We can’t force Him to appear in person, to heal a particular person in the hospital, etc. All we can do is pray. At the Mass, God is with us, but there isn’t a reason why he would be expected to perform a miracle just because we choose to have a Mass at that particular moment.

Also, God doesn’t “force” people to do anything. So there wouldn’t be a reason why people would have a particular set of beliefs by attending Mass. If he did, we would not have free will and not be human. We would be robots.

who said anything about being forced? did it ever occur to you that God loves us, and wants to be with us in a very real way? he himself gave us the Eucharist. the early Church Clearly believed that he was present (body blood soul and divinity) when the priest consecrated the host. how has this changed? i have had an epiphany in the last few days. the more protestantism has fractured, the more they have strayed from the truth, and what the Church Christ founded, taught, and continues to teach. and it looks like the next wave of protestant thought, is going to water the Gospel down even further. what part of eat my flesh, and drink my blood, do you folks not understand? and yes, james gives the remedy for healing. did it ever occur to you that Jesus wants to heal people? that he wants to act through others? such as the priest annointing the sick with oil? nobody forces Christ to do this. we invite His love for us with faith. why is it so many protestants doubt?

 

[justamoose89]

God will not act on demand. We can’t force Him to appear in person, to heal a particular person in the hospital, etc. All we can do is pray. At the Mass, God is with us, but there isn’t a reason why he would be expected to perform a miracle just because we choose to have a Mass at that particular moment.

“For where two or three come together in my name, there am I with them.” Matthew 18:20

"And he took bread, gave thanks and broke it, and gave it to them, saying, “This is my body given for you; do this in remembrance of me.”’ Luke 22:19

Jesus commands us to do it. So I’m pretty sure since he told us to do it, He’d show up

 

[Nicea325]

God is everywhere, so logically he is “really” present at the Mass.

God will not act on demand. We can’t force Him to appear in person, to heal a particular person in the hospital, etc. All we can do is pray. At the Mass, God is with us, but there isn’t a reason why he would be expected to perform a miracle just because we choose to have a Mass at that particular moment.

Also, God doesn’t “force” people to do anything. So there wouldn’t be a reason why people would have a particular set of beliefs by attending Mass. If he did, we would not have free will and not be human. We would be robots.

Yes but Jesus is present in the Eucharist.If God was present at the Jewish Temple (Ark of the Covenant),then why can’t Jesus be present at the Tabernacle as well?

It is beyond comprehension how many truly believe the Eucharist is only symbolic. Their pride is so thick it clouds their heart and mind.

 

[TedDC]

Yes but Jesus is present in the Eucharist.If God was present at the Jewish Temple (Ark of the Covenant),then why can’t Jesus be present at the Tabernacle as well?

It is beyond comprehension how many truly believe the Eucharist is only symbolic. Their pride is so thick it clouds their heart and mind.

I think you need to be a little less judgmental. I do not believe in the Real Presence, simply because I don’t find the arguments for it convincing. There’s no pride involved. In fact I would very much like to believe; it would e a wonderful thing. But to me, it is just symbolic.

 

[Thyme]

I believe in the Real Presence because of the Transubstantiation miracles. I’m not sure about all of them, but one of them has been scientifically examined. I also read about one having been tested and it was of the blood type AB and only had the female chromosomes. There was another miracle involving Christ’s blood and that also was of the type AB and only had female chromosomes.

 

[catsrus]

originally posted by TedDC
In fact I would very much like to believe; it would e a wonderful thing.

Faith is a gift from God… Pray for the gift.

 

[Nicea325]

I think you need to be a little less judgmental. I do not believe in the Real Presence, simply because I don’t find the arguments for it convincing. There’s no pride involved. In fact I would very much like to believe; it would e a wonderful thing. But to me, it is just symbolic.

Judgmental? Okay but you can accept the arguments of God being the Creator of all the seen and unseen? His Incarnation? His Resurretion? His Miracles? But he cannot be Present in the Eucharist?

How about Gabriel (archangel) statement:

For with God NOTHING will be impossible Luke 1:27

Human pride may lead to disbelief because human senses simply cannot comprehend.

 

[TedDC]

Judgmental? Okay but you can accept the arguments of God being the Creator of all the seen and unseen? His Incarnation? His Resurretion? His Miracles? But he cannot be Present in the Eucharist?

How about Gabriel (archangel) statement:

For with God NOTHING will be impossible Luke 1:27

But no human pride is involved?

I never said He cannot be present. As God, He can be present in any place, time and form that He chooses. I simply do not believe that he chose to be present in the Eucharist in any unique way, above and beyond His presence in everything else.

 

[Nicea325]

I never said He cannot be present. As God, He can be present in any place, time and form that He chooses. I simply do not believe that he chose to be present in the Eucharist in any unique way, above and beyond His presence in everything else.

Precisely,because Jesus said the opposite: This IS my Body and this IS my Blood.

Did not say: This represents or this is a symbol.

The verb **is ** better known as a linking verb. They connect nouns and pronouns to other information in the sentence.

If I am correct,there is roughly a dozen of words in Aramaic signifying ‘symbol’ Jesus never uses such langauge.

“For my flesh is food indeed, and my blood is drink indeed” (John 6:55).

He continues: “As the living Father sent me, and I live because of the Father, so he who eats me will live because of me” (John 6:57). The Greek word used for “eats” (trogon) is very blunt and has the sense of “chewing” or “gnawing.” This is not the language of metaphor.

Twelve times he said he was the bread that came down from heaven; four times he said they would have “to eat my flesh and drink my blood.”

Finally, I cannot find one Christian from the early church who teaches the Eucharist is only symbolic or that the Real Presence is ursupation of Christ teaching. No where.

 

[Jimmy_B]

I think you need to be a little less judgmental. I do not believe in the Real Presence, simply because I don’t find the arguments for it convincing. There’s no pride involved. In fact I would very much like to believe; it would e a wonderful thing. But to me, it is just symbolic.

Matthew 26:26-28
While they were eating, Jesus took bread, said the blessing, broke it, and giving it to his disciples said, “Take and eat; this is my body.” Then he took a cup, gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, "Drink from it, all of you, for this is my blood of the covenant, which will be shed on behalf of many for the forgiveness of sins.

Mark 14:22-24
While they were eating, he took bread, said the blessing, broke it, and gave it to them, and said, “Take it; this is my body.” Then he took a cup, gave thanks, and gave it to them, and they all drank from it. He said to them, "This is my blood of the covenant, which will be shed 8 for many.

Luke 22:17-20
Then he took a cup, gave thanks, and said, “Take this and share it among yourselves; for I tell you (that) from this time on I shall not drink of the fruit of the vine until the kingdom of God comes.” Then he took the bread, said the blessing, broke it, and gave it to them, saying, “This is my body, which will be given for you; do this in memory of me.” And likewise the cup after they had eaten, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in my blood, which will be shed for you.

 

[Jimmy_B]

John 6:11-13
Then Jesus took the loaves, gave thanks, and distributed them to those who were reclining, and also as much of the fish as they wanted. When they had had their fill, he said to his disciples, “Gather the fragments left over, so that nothing will be wasted.” So they collected them, and filled twelve wicker baskets with fragments from the five barley loaves that had been more than they could eat.

**John 6:35-38 **
Jesus said to them, "I am the bread of life; whoever comes to me will never hunger, and whoever believes in me will never thirst. But I told you that although you have seen (me), you do not believe. Everything that the Father gives me will come to me, and I will not reject anyone who comes to me, because I came down from heaven not to do my own will but the will of the one who sent me.

**John 6:52-66 **
The Jews quarreled among themselves, saying, “How can this man give us (his) flesh to eat?” Jesus said to them, “Amen, amen, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you do not have life within you. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him on the last day. For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me and I in him. Just as the living Father sent me and I have life because of the Father, so also the one who feeds on me will have life because of me. This is the bread that came down from heaven. Unlike your ancestors who ate and still died, whoever eats this bread will live forever.” These things he said while teaching in the synagogue in Capernaum. Then many of his disciples who were listening said, “This saying is hard; who can accept it?” Since Jesus knew that his disciples were murmuring about this, he said to them, “Does this shock you? What if you were to see the Son of Man ascending to where he was before? It is the spirit that gives life, while the flesh is of no avail. The words I have spoken to you are spirit and life. But there are some of you who do not believe.” Jesus knew from the beginning the ones who would not believe and the one who would betray him. And he said, “For this reason I have told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by my Father.” As a result of this, many (of) his disciples returned to their former way of life and no longer accompanied him.

John 15:4-7
Remain in me, as I remain in you. Just as a branch cannot bear fruit on its own unless it remains on the vine, so neither can you unless you remain in me. I am the vine, you are the branches. Whoever remains in me and I in him will bear much fruit, because without me you can do nothing. Anyone who does not remain in me will be thrown out like a branch and wither; people will gather them and throw them into a fire and they will be burned. **If you remain in me and my words remain in you, ask for whatever you want and it will be done for you. **

 

[Jimmy_B]

**1 Corinthians 20-27 **
When you meet in one place, then, it is not to eat the Lord’s supper, for in eating, each one goes ahead with his own supper, and one goes hungry while another gets drunk. Do you not have houses in which you can eat and drink? Or do you show contempt for the church of God and make those who have nothing feel ashamed? What can I say to you? Shall I praise you? In this matter I do not praise you. For I received from the Lord what I also handed on to you, that the Lord Jesus, on the night he was handed over, took bread, and, after he had given thanks, broke it and said, “This is my body that is for you. Do this in remembrance of me.” In the same way also the cup, after supper, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in my blood. Do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of me." For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you **proclaim the death of the Lord until he comes. Therefore whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord unworthily will have to answer for the body and blood of the Lord. **

 

[Jimmy_B]

1 Corinthians 5:7, 8
Clear out the old yeast, so that you may become a fresh batch of dough, inasmuch as you are unleavened. For our paschal lamb, Christ, has been sacrificed. Therefore let us celebrate the feast, not with the old yeast, the yeast of malice and wickedness, but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.

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1 Corinthians 10:15-23
I am speaking as to sensible people; judge for yourselves what I am saying. The cup of blessing that we bless, is it not a participation in the blood of Christ? The bread that we break, is it not a participation in the body of Christ?

 

[Jimmy_B]

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St. Ignatius of Antioch, Epistle to the Smyrnaeans, Chapter 7, 110 A.D.-

*“They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer, because they confess not the Eucharist to be the flesh of our Savior Jesus Christ, which suffered for our sins, and which the Father, of His goodness, raised up again.” *

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St. Irenaeus, Against Heresies, Book 5, Chap. 2, 185 A.D.-

• “When, therefore, the mixed cup and the baked bread receives the Word of God and becomes the Eucharist, the body of Christ, and from these the substance of our flesh is increased and supported, how can they say that the *
  *flesh is not capable of receiving the gift of God, which is eternal life–flesh which is nourished by the body and blood of the Lord, and is in fact a member of him?” *

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St. Cyril of Jerusalem, Catechetical Discourses, Mystagogic 1, 19:7, 350 A.D.-

*“For as the Bread and Wine of the Eucharist before the invocation of the Holy and Adorable Trinity were simple bread and wine, while after the invocation the Bread becomes the Body of Christ, and the Wine the Blood of Christ…” *

 

[Jimmy_B]

The DIDACHE - The Teaching of the Twelve (70-112 AD)

**CHAPTER 9 **

**THE THANKSGIVING SACRAMENT **

1. Now concerning the Thanksgiving meal, give thanks in this manner.
2. First, concerning the cup:
   We thank You, our Father,
   For the Holy Vine of David Your servant,
   Whom You made known to us through Your Servant;
   May the glory be Yours forever.
3. Concerning the broken bread:
   We thank You, our Father,
   For the life and knowledge
   Which You made known to us through Your Servant;
   May the glory be Yours forever.
   **As this broken bread was scattered over the mountains, **
   **And was gathered together to become one, **
   So let Your Body of Faithful be gathered together **
   From the ends of the earth into Your kingdom;
   for the glory and power are Yours forever.
   5) But let no one eat or drink of your Thanksgiving, unless they have been baptized; for concerning this is taught, “Do not give what is holy to dogs.” **