Is the "Real Presence" real?

[NDfan]

NDFAN,

exactly what part of ignatius’ writings concerning the Eucharist are you referring to when you mean that he wasn’t referring to the actual flesh of Christ? you think this is not referring to Jesus and us eating His flesh as He commanded us to in john 6?

Justin no I don’t think this is a reference to John 6. But then again we have different opinions of John 6. I would ask that you supply me with a writing from an early church father that connects John 6 with the Lord’s supper. I have never found it.

tell me how Ignatius is not speaking about this?

i do not understand, the whole focus in this passage is on the Eucharist, and those persons who arenot admitting that it is the flesh of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

No that’s not entirely true. Have you read the whole epistle?

If you read the entire epistle you’ll notice Ignatius is complimenting the Smyrnaeans on their faith but also warning them against heretics that do not profess Jesus as their savior or deny his very existence. These folks did not participate in the Eucharist, prayer or anything that had to do with Christ because they had not accepted the truth. Ignatius warned the Smyrnaeans against letting these folks cause division in the church. That is the theme of the entire epistle. Ignatius uses the Eucharist as an example saying:

They refrain from the eucharist and from prayer, because they do not confess that the eucharist is the flesh of our Saviour Jesus Christ, which suffered for our sins, and which the Father of his goodness raised up

He’s basically saying they do not partake in the supper because the supper is a confession of Jesus as our savior. Something they do not believe in. Again we’re taking these quotes in a literal fashion. Anyone who does not believe in Jesus will not participate in the Lord’s supper because it is a proclamation of the belief in Jesus.

what part of that statement means it is symbolic/spiritual only?
does he use the word “symbolic” or “spiritual” when referring to their non admittance of it being the actual flesh of our Lord?

He doesn’t refer to it as being spiritual because it’s not relevant here. He’s equating the confession that the Eucharist is the flesh of Jesus with believing in Jesus. Notice he doesn’t say the bread turns into the flesh. He says the bread is the flesh similar to Jesus saying “this is MY body”. Look at the follow-up statement Ignatius makes in the very next verse:

7:1 They, therefore, who speak against the gift of God, die disputing. But it were better for them to love, that they might also rise again.

Clearly Ignatius is saying if they had loved, meaning believed in Jesus, they might be raised from the dead. Something all Christians hope for.

I just do not see it.

Well we may see it different ways but I think we both agree that the Lord’s supper is an integral part of our faith.

PEACE

 

[NDfan]

Again, the church does not say it is bone. please understand me when i tell you this so that you can stop making this mistake.

Justin I do understand you brother. I’m just saying I read that several times I just have to find it. I don’t agree with it either so if you say that’s not the RCs position then great I’m in agreement with it.

Also, where does Jesus say when teaching the Eucharist, “take, eat, this is my spiritual body”

or " take eat, this is a symbol of my flesh and blood for you to remember me by in your head only"?

he does not.

Yes I know HE does not. He says this is my body which will be given up for you. Well the bread is not given up Jesus body is. So then HE’s using the bread to equate it with HIS body. Same as the wine. He says this cup is the new covenant in my blood. Again equating the cup with HIS blood. You have to show me where Jesus says I am turning this into MY body and blood. That HE does not say. HE wants us to see HIS body and blood everytime we eat the bread and drink the wine to remember HIS sacrifice. That’s what the whole institution of the Lord’s supper is. Jesus giving us a way to not only remember HIS sarifice, but to proclaim it.

he DOES say, when He holds up the cup and the bread "This IS my Body, this IS my blood.

Yes and as mentioned above, HE doesn’t say, I’m turning this into MY body and blood for you. You’re getting hung up on HIS use of the word IS.

PEACE

 

[NDfan]

I beg to differ.

Jesus Christ is the Word/Logos.

And as the priest says before we receive communion in the Holy Orthodox Church:

"The servant of God, partakes of the precious, most holy and most pure Body and Blood of our Lord, God and Savior Jesus Christ for the remission of sins and for life everlasting. Amen".

Peace and blessings to you and your loved ones NDfan!

Yes Mickey Jesus is the Logos. But HIS word is also contained in the Bible is it not?

PEACE to you and your loved ones as well.

 

[NDfan]

Many of Jesus’ own disciples can’t accept the literalness of His teaching and leave him(vs66). Notice that Jesus DOESN"T call them back and explain that he is only speaking figuratively, as he did on previous occasions when they mistook Him for speaking literally.

No Justin you are incorrect on this. No one leaves the Synagogue until Jesus clarifies this teaching from verse 60-65. They left HIM in verse 66 after HE clarifies that HIS words were spirit and life. Read John 6 very slowly and carefully. I don’t say that disrespectful. But I’ve seen this argument made many times.

For example, in John 4:31-34, Jesus says" I have food to eat of which you do not know". His disciples take him literally, so Jesus explains " My food is to do the will of the One who sent me". In Matthew 16:5-12, Jesus says " beware of the leaven of the pharisees and sadducees". Once again, his disciples think Jesus is speaking literally. Again, Jesus corrects them and explains that he is not talkoing about real bread. " then they understood that he was not telling them to beware of the leaven of bread, but of the teaching of the pharisees and Sadducees".

(Jesus’ reaction to objections is remakably consistent. Whenever an audience WRONGLY understands Him to be speaking literally and raises objections, Jesus’ constant practice is to EXPLAIN that he was only speaking figuratively(see John 3:3-5, Matthew 1924-26, JOhn 8:21-23, John 8:32-36John8:39-44 and John 16:18-22
On the other hand, when the audience RIGHTLY understands Him to be speaking -literally - and raises objections, Jesus’ Jesus" constant practice is to repeat what he said(se Matthew 9:2-6, John8:56-59, and john 6:42-51). When the Jews object to Jesus saying the bread He will give is His flesh , does Jeuss explain himself or repeat himself? Jesus emphatically repeats Himself six times in a row, confirming that he intends to be understood literally.)

I disagree. Again if you read it slowly you will notice he is equating eating HIS flesh with believing. Read it with an open mind and not so focused on your belief.

 

[NDfan]

justinthemartyr did a nice job showing the areas of the CCC concerning the Eucharist, but I thouoght I would add just one more: CCC 1358 We must therefore consider the Eucharist as:
-thanksgiving and praise to the Father;
-the sacrificial memorial of Christ and his Body;
-the presence of Christ by the power of his word and of his Spirit.

He is present in the Eucharist. As a catholic, I believe he is truly present.

As another item for debate I offer this: I asked a priest recently about the wine, and if I did not take of the wine, would I be rejecting the blood of Christ. He informed me that to take the bread and not the wine did not mean that I passed on the blood of Christ, because the blood is present in the body.

Tmango this was a declaration made by the Pope. But just keep in mind that Jesus said as often as we drink the cup AND eat the bread we proclaim HIS death. Jesus didn’t offer an option to NOT drink from the cup. He told the disciples to drink from the cup, not consider drinking from the cup. If we’re taking HIM literally when HE says this is my body and blood, then we have to believe he also wants us to do both. If HE wanted the bread to contain the blood then He would only have used bread. HE gave us something separate for HIS blood. The wine.

Just something to think about because this bothered me as well. I don’t think the Pope can overrule Jesus.

PEACE

 

[NDfan]

That quote does nothing to further your cause.

To me it furthers the explanation that Jesus wasn’t referring to HIS literal flesh.

 

[NDfan]

Lol. I do not have the time to go into my library of Church Fathers, but I’m sure someone else will dig up St Augustine quotes showing that he truly believed in the Real Presence. You may also get about 5000 or so other Church Father quotes.

I cannot help but to find a bit of amusement when someone tries to use St Augustine against the central teaching (Eucharist) of the Catholic/Orthodox Church.

Mickey PEACE brother but Augustine is greatly respected by the church and HIS wording supports exactly the spiritual reference I make to the Eucharist. As does many other church fathers. Augustine equates believing with eating. Exactly what Jesus states in John 6. If you believe you have eaten.

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

Justin no I don’t think this is a reference to John 6. But then again we have different opinions of John 6. I would ask that you supply me with a writing from an early church father that connects John 6 with the Lord’s supper. I have never found it.

**B]I hope this helps, St. Cyril of Jerusalem 350 a.d (Quasten 1959:III, 375) Speaking to his procatecheses, catecheses, and the mystagogical catecheses. " The bread and wine oof the Eucharist, before the invocation of the holy and adorable Trinity, were simple bread and wine: but, after the invocation, the bread becomes the body of Christ, and the wine the blood of Christ". (Mystagogical Lecture 1.7)

So, with complete confidence, let us partake as of the body and blood of Christ. For in the figure of bread his body is given to you, and in the figure of wine his blood: so that, by partaking of the body and blood of Christ, you may become one body and blood with him, Thus,we come to bear Christ in us, because his body and blood are distributed through our members. According to blessed Peter, we became " Partakers of the divine nature" (2 Peter 1:4)

Once, Christ spoke with the Jews, saying, “Unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you have no life in you” (JOHN 6:53). **They did not hear his saying in a spiritual sense, and so they were offended. They drew back, supposing that he was inviting them to cannibalism…So do not think of the elements as mere bread and wine. They are, according to the Lord’s declaration, the bidy and the blood of Christ. Even though your senses tell you otherwise, let faith strengthen you. Do not judge the matter from the taste, but be full confident, from steady faith, that the body and blood of Christ have been given to you.

You have learned these things, so be fully assured. What seems to be bread is not bread, though it tastes like bread, but the body of Christ. And what seems to be wine is not wine, though it tastes like wine, but the blood of Christ. (Mystagogical Lecture 4)

St. Clement of Alexandria " To drink the blood of Jesus is to partake in the Lord’s immortality, for the Spirit is the vital principle of the Word, as blood is of flesh. Thus, as wine is blended with water, so is the Spirit with man. The one, the mixture of wine and water, nourishes to faith; while the other, the Spirit, conducts immortality.
The mixture of both-the water and the Word-is called the Eucharist, the renowned and glorious grace. Those who receive it in faith are sanctified in body and soul.B]

**St. Irenaeus 125-202 a.d. JOHN 6:54,**Speaks of the holy Eucharist as pledge of the resurrection of the body, a doctrine denied by many gnostic sects."Then how can they say that the flesh, which is nourished with the Body of the Lord and with His Blood, goes to corruption and does not partake of life?.. But our opinon is in accordance with the Eucharist, and the Eucharist in turn establishes our opinion. For we offer to Him His own, announcing consistently the fellowship and union of the flesh and Spirit. For as bread, which is produced from the earth, when it receives the invocation of God, is no longer common bread, but the Eucharist, consisting of two realities, earthly and heavenly, so also our bodies, when they receive the Eucharist, are no longer corruptible, having the hope of the resurrection to eternity.

 

[SyCarl]

St Augustine is correct in his final analysis. read on.

“Christ was carried in his own hands when, referring to his own body, he said, ‘This is my body’ [Matt. 26:26]. For he carried that body in his hands” (Explanations of the Psalms 33:1:10 [A.D. 405]).

It appears that this quote might not be quite correct, at least depending on the source you use.

“And was carried in His Own Hands:” how “carried in His Own Hands”? Because when He commended His Own Body and Blood, He took into His Hands that which the faithful know; and in a manner / carried Himself, when He said, “This is My Body.” ****
newadvent.org/fathers/1801034.htm

The words “in a manner” make a significant difference in what is meant. He didn’t literally carry himself, but only in a manner.

I am trying to find sources for the other quotes.

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

**I believe to get an understanding of the real presence in the blessed Sacrament;(Eucharist). One has to clarify the Word Spirit. Spirit does not mean symbolic in sacred scripture. Spirit refers to the life Jesus gives to us in his body and blood soul and divinity. Spirit = life.

John 14:15 “If you love me, you will keep my commandments.
16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Advocate 8 to be with you always,
17 the Spirit of truth, 9 which the world cannot accept, because it neither sees nor knows it. But you know it, because it remains with you, and will be in you.
18 I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you. 10
19 In a little while the world will no longer see me, but you will see me, because I live and you will live.
20 On that day you will realize that I am in my Father and you are in me and I in you.
21 Whoever has my commandments and observes them is the one who loves me. And whoever loves me will be loved by my Father, and I will love him and reveal myself to him.”

Romans 8:2 For the law of the spirit of life in Christ Jesus has freed you from the law of sin and death. 5
For those who live according to the flesh are concerned with the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the spirit with the things of the spirit.
6 The concern of the flesh is death, but the concern of the spirit is life and peace.
9 But you are not in the flesh; on the contrary, you are in the spirit, if only the Spirit of God dwells in you. Whoever does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him.
10 But if Christ is in you, although the body is dead because of sin, the spirit is alive because of righteousness.
11 If the Spirit of the one who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, the one who raised Christ from the dead will give life to your mortal bodies also, through his Spirit that dwells in you. 14For those who are led by the Spirit of God are children of God. [/U16 The Spirit itself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, 17 and if children, then heirs, heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ, if only we suffer with him so that we may also be glorified with him.

Galatians1:1 O stupid Galatians! Who has bewitched you, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified?
2 I want to learn only this from you: did you receive the Spirit from works of the law, or from faith in what you heard? 3
3 Are you so stupid? After beginning with the Spirit, are you now ending with the flesh? 4
4 Did you experience so many things 5 in vain?–if indeed it was in vain. 5 Does, then, the one who supplies the Spirit to you and works mighty deeds among you do so from works of the law or from faith in what you heard?

Philipians 3:2 Beware of the dogs! Beware of the evil workers! Beware of the mutilation! 4 For we are the circumcision, 5 we who worship through the Spirit of God, who boast in Christ Jesus and do not put our confidence in flesh,

John 16:13 But when he comes, the Spirit of truth, he will guide you to all truth. He will not speak on his own, but he will speak what he hears, and will declare to you the things that are coming.
16 “A little while and you will no longer see me, and again a little while later and you will see me.”

Ephesians 4:4 one body and one Spirit, as you were also called to the one hope of your call; 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism; 6
one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.
verse 30 And do not grieve the holy Spirit of God, with which you were sealed for the day of redemption.

1 Peter 3:18 For Christ also suffered for sins once, the righteous for the sake of the unrighteous, that he might lead you to God. Put to death in the flesh, he was brought to life in the spirit.

1 Peter 4:14 14
If you are insulted for the name of Christ, blessed are you, for the Spirit of glory and of God rests upon you.

Galatians 4:29
But just as then the child of the flesh persecuted the child of the spirit, it is the same now.

Galatians 5:17
For the flesh has desires against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; these are opposed to each other, so that you may not do what you want. 18 But if you are guided by the Spirit, you are not under the law.

Galatians 6:18
The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with your spirit, brothers. Amen.

John 6; 60 Then many of his disciples who were listening said, “This saying is hard; who can accept it?”
61 Since Jesus knew that his disciples were murmuring about this, he said to them, “Does this shock you?
62 What if you were to see the Son of Man ascending to where he was before? 63 It is the spirit that gives life, while the flesh is of no avail. The words I have spoken to you are spirit and life. 64 But there are some of you who do not believe.” Jesus knew from the beginning the ones who would not believe and the one who would betray him.
65
And he said, “For this reason I have told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by my Father.”
66
As a result of this, many (of) his disciples returned to their former way of life and no longer accompanied him.**

 

[justinthemartyr]

The position held by St. Augustine is at present the subject of a spirited controversy, since the adversaries of the Church rather confidently maintain that he favored their side of the question in that he was an out-and-out “Symbolist”. In the opinion of Loofs (“Dogmengeschichte”, 4th ed., Halle, 1906, p. 409), St. Augustine never gives, the “reception of the true Body and Blood of Christ” a thought; and this view Ad. Harnack (Dogmengeschichte, 3rd ed., Freiburg, 1897, III, 148) emphasizes when he declares that St. Augustine “undoubtedly was one in this respect with the so-called pre-Reformation and with Zwingli”. Against this rather hasty conclusion Catholics first of all advance the undoubted fact that Augustine demanded that Divine worship should be rendered to the Eucharistic Flesh (In Ps. xxxiii, enarr., i, 10), and declared that at the Last Supper “Christ held and carried Himself in His own hands” (In Ps. xcviii, n. 9). They insist, and rightly so, that it is not fair to separate this great Doctor’s teaching concerning the Eucharist from his doctrine of the Holy Sacrifice, since he clearly and unmistakably asserts that the true Body and Blood are offered in the Holy Mass. The variety of extreme views just mentioned requires that an attempt be made at a reasonable and unbiased explanation, whose verification is to be sought for and found in the acknowledged fact that a gradual process of development took place in the mind of St. Augustine. No one will deny that certain expressions occur in Augustine as forcibly realistic as those of Tertullian and Cyprian or of his intimate literary friends, Ambrose, Optatus of Mileve, Hilary, and Chrysostom. On the other hand, it is beyond question that, owing to the determining influence of Origen and the Platonic philosophy, which, as is well known, attached but slight value to visible matter and the sensible phenomena of the world, Augustine did not refer what was properly real (res) in the Blessed Sacrament to the Flesh of Christ (caro), but transferred it to the quickening principle (spiritus), i.e. to the effects produced by a worthy Communion. A logical consequence of this was that he allowed to caro, as the vehicle and antitype of res, not indeed a mere symbolical worth, but at best a transitory, intermediary, and subordinate worth (signum), and placed the Flesh and Blood of Christ, present under the appearances (figuræ) of bread and wine, in too decided an opposition to His natural, historical Body. Since Augustine was a strenuous defender of personal co-operation and effort in the work of salvation and an enemy to mere mechanical activity and superstitious routine, he omitted insisting upon a lively faith in the real personality of Jesus in the Eucharist, and called attention to the spiritual efficiency of the Flesh of Christ instead. His mental vision was fixed, not so much upon the saving caro, as upon the spiritus, which alone possessed worth. Nevertheless a turning-point occurred in his life. The conflict with Pelagianism and the diligent perusal of Chrysostom freed him from the bondage of Platonism, and he thenceforth attached to caro a separate, individual value independent of that of spiritus, going so far, in fact, as to maintain too strongly that the Communion of children was absolutely necessary to salvation.

newadvent.org/cathen/05573a.htm

 

[oneGODoneCHURCH]

Jesus say I am the way and the life no one comes to the father but through me. We all believe he meant just what he said.

Jesus said he and the Father are one. Again we all believe that he meant just what he said.

Do we kind of follow were I’m going here.

My Question is then if Jesus took the bread blessed it gave it the the Apostles and said eat this is my body then he took the cup blessed it gave it to the Apostles and said drink this is my blood. Why do you not believe it is just what he said it is. I do not understand how you can say that well this is what he meant. One of the things I try really hard to do when i find things that confuse me or are beyond my comprehension id to remember Matthew 18 :3 and become as a child.

I for one also try to error on the side of caution. In doing so if Jesus said that the Eucharist is his Body and Blood, I will say it is and believe it is just that until he tells me otherwise. I don’t know how and I don’t know all the make up of it ( flesh bone nerve blood etc…) all I know is that the Church from the time of the resurrection till today teaches it is and Holy Scripture tells us that Jesus said It his. thats All I need for me to Believe that that when I Receive the Eucharist I take into my mouth and body the Body and blood of Christ.

 

[japhy]

Christ’s glorified body was still flesh and blood and spirit, but changed (“glorified” is the term Catholics use). As is evident in the Gospels, Jesus could pass through locked doors, could appear and disappear at will, and yet he could be touched, could consume food, and had “flesh and bones” (Luke 24:39).

When Paul says that “flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God” (1 Cor 15:50), it seems he is saying that more is required than flesh and blood to inherit the kingdom: a spiritual body, not an “animal” body. A body (body!) directed by the spirit, rather than by the flesh: that is, flesh and spirit under the direction of the spirit, rather than under the direction of the flesh. This becomes more clear when he says that “this perishable nature must put on the imperishable, and this mortal nature must put on immortality” (1 Cor 15:53). Our corruptible, mortal nature is clothed in incorruptibility and immortality: glorified, as was Christ’s. Our body is “incomplete”, then, until the resurrection: we are only “seeds” being “sown” , and what will come to life will be our glorified bodies (1 Cor 15:37-38).

Even Job knew that he would see his Redeemer in his flesh and with his own eyes (cf. Job 19:25-27).

If Christ no longer has a body of flesh and blood, the Incarnation has ceased.

 

[mathematician]

One has to clarify the Word Spirit. Spirit does not mean symbolic in sacred scripture.

To a large degree, many of our troubles arise from a Catholic insistence on trying to read that meaning of the word "spirit " into Protestant minds.

 

[Mickey]

Augustine equates believing with eating. Exactly what Jesus states in John 6.

Believe and eat the Body and Blood of our Lord and Saviour.

Not a symbolic gesture.

Not an analogous gesture.

Not a figurative understanding.

It is the Real Presence of Jesus Christ.

Yes, my friend, believe and eat!
smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/17/17_1_29.gif

 

[justinthemartyr]

NDFAN

if augustine was saying what you believe he was, then why did he demand the worship of the Eucharist and say that Christ held himself in his own hands?

Yes, believing is eating the flesh, for if you do not believe it, then you cannot eat it, lest you bring condemnation upon yourself.

if you do not believe that the eucharist is Christ’s true glorified flesh and blood, the you do not believe in Christ.

God said it, I believe it, to do otherwise is to say no to god Himself, which is sin at it’s root.

 

[japhy]

The words “in a manner” make a significant difference in what is meant. He didn’t literally carry himself, but only in a manner.

That what you understand “in a manner” to mean; however, I don’t think it means that. I think it refers to the fact that Jesus was, in a mystical way, holding his own body “apart from him” in his hands. He wasn’t holding a severed limb in his hand, nor was he simply holding one arm with the other; rather, he was, in a manner, doing the same thing that other people would do the next day, when he was being taken down from the cross: holding the body of Jesus Christ in their hands.

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

To a large degree, many of our troubles arise from a Catholic insistence on trying to read that meaning of the word "spirit " into Protestant minds.

That is why we have only one teacher, not many. The Holy Spirit reveals these spiritual realities to the believers who humble themselves to God. That is why Baptism is so important, inorder to die to self, inorder that the Holy Spirit can reveal Truth to us, and we freely recieve the Graces of God. I could give you many scripture to support this, but without the Grace of God, and the Holy Spirit one remains just flesh.

 

[mathematician]

That is why we have only one teacher, not many. The Holy Spirit reveals these spiritual realities to the believers who humble themselves to God.

Humbling yourself before God is one thing; humbling yourself before the Roman magesterium is another.

That is why Baptism is so important, inorder to die to self, in order that the Holy Spirit can reveal Truth to us, and we freely recieve the Graces of God.

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

Humbling yourself before God is one thing; humbling yourself before the Roman magesterium is another.

I can understand your point. I am a man, I refuse to bow my knee before no man. Although I have the understanding that the authority I submit to is the divine one, held by God’s chosen whether corrupt or not, for even Peter and the disciples abandoned Jesus and denied him. The Roman Catholic Church is fully divine and fully human, just like the incarnation. I have the belief and understanding that Jesus is present in his body the One Holy Catholic Apostolic church just as he promises.

You think dying to self is just a question of going through a rite of baptism? It will take a lifetime, and even then you won’t manage it - or if you do you will be in line for canonisation.

**I will pray for you mathematician for God is truly working with you, and you as all us humans do have a desire for God or Truth. True; dying to self is not attainable without God’s Grace. Baptism is a way of attaining this Grace that is possible. If we take this step of faith of our own free will towards God, he will meet us and take us home, and put a new robe on you, and a ring to signify your are a child of the Most high God.

It is not easy being a Christian, for one to take up his cross and follow Jesus. Take a step of faith and let God do the rest with his Grace that will sustain you. One step begins the humility, then comes grace. For it is pride that keeps us from God.

Baptism saves you now.**