Is the "Real Presence" real?

[Jimmy_B]

Your welcome Jimmy, the video just got me thinking more about the Real Presence.
The Eucharist reminds us that we are possessed by God, and that communion fills us with gladness and peace.
Also thus we have the fifth mystery of the Luminous Mysteries;
The Institution of the Eucharist.

 

[colverpa]

cant really be catholic if you dont beleive this

 

[justasking4]

Is the “Real Presence” real?

I believe that it is real, that Jesus Christ is really present in the Eucharist (Holy Communion) and not merely present “symbolically”.

A belief in the “Real Presence” of Christ in the Holy Eucharist is supported Biblically.

Many “Protestants” and non-Catholic Christians who reject the Eucharist as the “Real Presence” of Jesus Christ, don’t have a problem with the Christian concept that God is both omnipresent and omnipotent, except that is, when it comes to the Eucharist.

Many will accept for example, the belief that God created the Universe, or that God can manifest himself as a “burning bush”, or that the Resurrection occurred, but they do not believe that Jesus can be present in the Holy Eucharist. Where in the Bible, does it say He can’t?

This seems to be a contradiction in beliefs.

Is the “Real Presence” real?

Your Thoughts?

If Christ is truly present in the Eucharist then what are the characteristics of it? For example in the gospels a person could touch and hold Jesus. A person could also hear Him and He could respond to them. Is that possible in the “Real Presence” doctrine in the same we relate in this world to one another?

 

[5pintLutheran]

If Christ is truly present in the Eucharist then what are the characteristics of it? For example in the gospels a person could touch and hold Jesus. A person could also hear Him and He could respond to them. Is that possible in the “Real Presence” doctrine in the same we relate in this world to one another?

Characteristics?

In the Holy Eucharist, Christ is fully present, even if you can’t see him. I would ask… When a man reads Holy Scripture and feels the Holy Spirit move through him by learning about Christ and holding dearly all that Christ is… Why can’t the Holy Spirit use other vehicles to influence man?

In other words… By reading Scripture, you can’t hold and touch Jesus, but you can through the Eucharist. The Lord’s Supper is a promise of forgiveness given by Christ. When you partake of the body and blood of Jesus, in faith, he does speak to you.

We are human, so God uses material means to come in contact with us. We can’t ascend to heaven on our own b/c we don’t have divine attributes, but Jesus can come down to us limitlessly, b/c he is divine.

 

[guanophore]

If Christ is truly present in the Eucharist then what are the characteristics of it? For example in the gospels a person could touch and hold Jesus. A person could also hear Him and He could respond to them. Is that possible in the “Real Presence” doctrine in the same we relate in this world to one another?

His presence is a mystical presence.This is why Eucharist is called one of the Divine Mysteries. A mystery, by definition, defies logic, and is very difficult if not impossible to explain. The Trinity is such a mystery. Our understanding of it is only primitive, because the nature of it is too great for our limited minds to grasp.

It is difficult for persons such as yourself, who are weak in faith, to accept such things. Perhaps it would be better if you focused on the elementary doctrines for now?

 

[justasking4]

guanophore;3998381]His presence is a mystical presence.

I looked up what “mystical” means and here are some definitions:
religion with divine meaning: with a divine meaning beyond human understanding
2. religion of mysticism: relating to or involving mysticism or mystics
3. paranormal with supernatural significance: with supernatural or spiritual significance or power

Next i went to the Catholic Answers library on what the real presence means. Here is how they define it:

The doctrine of the Real Presence asserts that in the Holy Eucharist, Jesus is literally and wholly present—body and blood, soul and divinity—under the appearances of bread and wine.

I don’t see how the word mystical applies. Rather Catholic Answers looks like they are advocating some far different. They are claiming something a literal and not mystical understanding.

This is why Eucharist is called one of the Divine Mysteries. A mystery, by definition, defies logic, and is very difficult if not impossible to explain. The Trinity is such a mystery. Our understanding of it is only primitive, because the nature of it is too great for our limited minds to grasp.

It is difficult for persons such as yourself, who are weak in faith, to accept such things. Perhaps it would be better if you focused on the elementary doctrines for now?

I thought this was an elementary doctrine.

 

[guanophore]

I looked up what “mystical” means and here are some definitions:
religion with divine meaning: with a divine meaning beyond human understanding
2. religion of mysticism: relating to or involving mysticism or mystics
3. paranormal with supernatural significance: with supernatural or spiritual significance or power

Next i went to the Catholic Answers library on what the real presence means. Here is how they define it:

The doctrine of the Real Presence asserts that in the Holy Eucharist, Jesus is literally and wholly present—body and blood, soul and divinity—under the appearances of bread and wine.

I don’t see how the word mystical applies. Rather Catholic Answers looks like they are advocating some far different. They are claiming something a literal and not mystical understanding.

I believe you when you are saying that you don’t see how it applies. I think that your mind works in very concrete terms. I think this because of the many comments you have made about cannabilism and the Catholic teaching on the Eucharist. There is no other way for Jesus to be literally and wholly present in under the appearances of bread and wine except through the mystery of faith. Such an occurance is not possible to understand with the human reason.

I thought this was an elementary doctrine.

No. The uninitiated have never been admitted to communion, and eucharist is not meant for unbelievers.

 

[NeedImprovement]

Characteristics?

In the Holy Eucharist, Christ is fully present, even if you can’t see him. I would ask… When a man reads Holy Scripture and feels the Holy Spirit move through him by learning about Christ and holding dearly all that Christ is… Why can’t the Holy Spirit use other vehicles to influence man?

In other words… By reading Scripture, you can’t hold and touch Jesus, but you can through the Eucharist. The Lord’s Supper is a promise of forgiveness given by Christ. When you partake of the body and blood of Jesus, in faith, he does speak to you.

We are human, so God uses material means to come in contact with us. We can’t ascend to heaven on our own b/c we don’t have divine attributes, but Jesus can come down to us limitlessly, b/c he is divine.

Another great post 5pintLutheran. Thanks.

I remember hearing Franciscan Father Michael Scanlon - Dean of Franciscan University in Steubenville, say that speaking to Our Lord in the Eucharist was “the most natural thing a Catholic could do.”

 

[TriuneUnity]

Characteristics?

In the Holy Eucharist, Christ is fully present, even if you can’t see him. I would ask… When a man reads Holy Scripture and feels the Holy Spirit move through him by learning about Christ and holding dearly all that Christ is… Why can’t the Holy Spirit use other vehicles to influence man?

In other words… By reading Scripture, you can’t hold and touch Jesus, but you can through the Eucharist. The Lord’s Supper is a promise of forgiveness given by Christ. When you partake of the body and blood of Jesus, in faith, he does speak to you.

We are human, so God uses material means to come in contact with us. We can’t ascend to heaven on our own b/c we don’t have divine attributes, but Jesus can come down to us limitlessly, b/c he is divine.

I disagree with Eucharistic adoration, but the rest of your train of thought is great.

By the way, your screen name is hillarious. Did you think of that? LOL. I bet Calvinists love it.

 

[allhers]

Is the “Real Presence” real?

YES!!! I couldn’t vote in the poll, as it would’t let anyone else take it.

It said 362 Yes
24 No

It said this above the poll:
This poll will close on Mar 5, '09 at 4:18 am
(Maybe it was suppose to be 08 ???)

 

[Jimmy_B]

1323 "At the Last Supper, on the night he was betrayed, our Savior instituted the Eucharistic sacrifice of his Body and Blood. This he did in order to perpetuate the sacrifice of the cross throughout the ages until he should come again, and so to entrust to his beloved Spouse, the Church, a memorial of his death and resurrection: a sacrament of love, a sign of unity, a bond of charity, a Paschal banquet ‘in which Christ is consumed, the mind is filled with grace, and a pledge of future glory is given to us.’"135

1333 At the heart of the Eucharistic celebration are the bread and wine that, by the words of Christ and the invocation of the Holy Spirit, become Christ’s Body and Blood. Faithful to the Lord’s command the Church continues to do, in his memory and until his glorious return, what he did on the eve of his Passion: “He took bread. . . .” “He took the cup filled with wine. . . .” The signs of bread and wine become, in a way surpassing understanding, the Body and Blood of Christ; they continue also to signify the goodness of creation. Thus in the Offertory we give thanks to the Creator for bread and wine,154 fruit of the “work of human hands,” but above all as “fruit of the earth” and “of the vine” - gifts of the Creator. The Church sees in the gesture of the king-priest Melchizedek, who “brought out bread and wine,” a prefiguring of her own offering.155

1334 In the Old Covenant bread and wine were offered in sacrifice among the first fruits of the earth as a sign of grateful acknowledgment to the Creator. But they also received a new significance in the context of the Exodus: the unleavened bread that Israel eats every year at Passover commemorates the haste of the departure that liberated them from Egypt; the remembrance of the manna in the desert will always recall to Israel that it lives by the bread of the Word of God;156 their daily bread is the fruit of the promised land, the pledge of God’s faithfulness to his promises. The "cup of blessing"157 at the end of the Jewish Passover meal adds to the festive joy of wine an eschatological dimension: the messianic expectation of the rebuilding of Jerusalem. When Jesus instituted the Eucharist, he gave a new and definitive meaning to the blessing of the bread and the cup.

1335 The miracles of the multiplication of the loaves, when the Lord says the blessing, breaks and distributes the loaves through his disciples to feed the multitude, prefigure the superabundance of this unique bread of his Eucharist.158 The sign of water turned into wine at Cana already announces the Hour of Jesus’ glorification. It makes manifest the fulfillment of the wedding feast in the Father’s kingdom, where the faithful will drink the new wine that has become the Blood of Christ.159

1336 The first announcement of the Eucharist divided the disciples, just as the announcement of the Passion scandalized them: "This is a hard saying; who can listen to it?"160 The Eucharist and the Cross are stumbling blocks. It is the same mystery and it never ceases to be an occasion of division. “Will you also go away?”:161 the Lord’s question echoes through the ages, as a loving invitation to discover that only he has "the words of eternal life"162 and that to receive in faith the gift of his Eucharist is to receive the Lord himself.

ccc

 

[ChristianKnight]

I believe Christ is everywhere, not just if you eat the bread and drink the wine, but if you really want him there.

 

[5pintLutheran]

I disagree with Eucharistic adoration, but the rest of your train of thought is great.

By the way, your screen name is hillarious. Did you think of that? LOL. I bet Calvinists love it.

Yes, I’m Straddling the fence on Eucharistic adoration, but that’s another discussion alltogether. On one hand, yes it is Christ’s body, blood, soul and divinity, but on the other hand… Jesus told us to “take and eat… take… drink” nothing more, nothing less.

I can see the Catholic view in that b/c it is God incarnate come down to us in the form of bread and wine, we should give him all due respect, and adoration, b/c it’s no longer bread and wine, but Christ himself.

Yeah, I grew up a 5 point calvinist for about 26 years, then I converted and became a 5 pint Lutheran, lol. I didn’t think of it, but forgot where I heard it.

 

[TriuneUnity]

Yes, I’m Straddling the fence on Eucharistic adoration, but that’s another discussion alltogether. On one hand, yes it is Christ’s body, blood, soul and divinity, but on the other hand… Jesus told us to “take and eat… take… drink” nothing more, nothing less.

I can see the Catholic view in that b/c it is God incarnate come down to us in the form of bread and wine, we should give him all due respect, and adoration, b/c it’s no longer bread and wine, but Christ himself.

Yeah, I grew up a 5 point calvinist for about 26 years, then I converted and became a 5 pint Lutheran, lol. I didn’t think of it, but forgot where I heard it.

I am sorry that you had to grow up a Calvinist LOL.

 

[5pintLutheran]

I am sorry that you had to grow up a Calvinist LOL.

Lol, I know.

There are good things about Calvinism, but it’s theology didn’t do it for me. The biggest thing was double predestination. How does a person know they haven’t been predestined to eternal damnation?? Anyway, that’s another subject for another thread.

Pertaining to the Real Presence though:

Rev. Todd Wilken of Issues Etc. (which is back on air issuesetc.org/index.html) said this about the
Lord’s Supper:

“You do not have to prove that Jesus meant what He said, rather, those who deny the Real Presence have to prove that He didn’t. The only way they can do that is by forcing Jesus’ words to conform to the dictates of their reason.”

and this hypothetical situation:

Jesus says, “This is my body… This is my blood.” Now, on Judgment Day, if I am wrong in taking those words literally, and Jesus rebukes me, “Why did you misunderstand my Supper?” I will be able to answer, “Lord, I was simply taking you at your Word.”

But if Jesus intended those words to be taken literally, and I have taken them figuratively, what will be my answer? All I could say would be, “I trusted my reason more than your words.”

Say: “I would rather be rebuked for taking Jesus at His word, than for not doing so.”

Wise words for wise people!

 

[Jimmy_B]

Lol, I know.

There are good things about Calvinism, but it’s theology didn’t do it for me. The biggest thing was double predestination. and this hypothetical situation:…

Hello 5pintLutheran,

I agree that Calvin’s, “predestination” is an errant belief and I also believe that the rejection of the Real Presense of Christ in the Holy Eucharist is big problem…

Why can’t non-Catholic Christians agree on these two issues?

Thank you for your post, you made some excellent points here.

God bless you!

Peace

 

[TriuneUnity]

Lol, I know.

There are good things about Calvinism, but it’s theology didn’t do it for me. The biggest thing was double predestination. How does a person know they haven’t been predestined to eternal damnation?? Anyway, that’s another subject for another thread.

Pertaining to the Real Presence though:

Rev. Todd Wilken of Issues Etc. (which is back on air issuesetc.org/index.html) said this about the
Lord’s Supper:

“You do not have to prove that Jesus meant what He said, rather, those who deny the Real Presence have to prove that He didn’t. The only way they can do that is by forcing Jesus’ words to conform to the dictates of their reason.”

and this hypothetical situation:

Jesus says, “This is my body… This is my blood.” Now, on Judgment Day, if I am wrong in taking those words literally, and Jesus rebukes me, “Why did you misunderstand my Supper?” I will be able to answer, “Lord, I was simply taking you at your Word.”

But if Jesus intended those words to be taken literally, and I have taken them figuratively, what will be my answer? All I could say would be, “I trusted my reason more than your words.”

Say: “I would rather be rebuked for taking Jesus at His word, than for not doing so.”

Wise words for wise people!

Amen.

And no, you have no way of knowing where you’ve been predestined in Calvinism. It is faith in your own faith. It cannot be faith in Christ the crucified… because one has no objective way to know that Christ, in fact, died for you.

 

[AlegreFe]

(front)
During one of the cenacles which Fr. Gobbi held in the United States, he was urged by many concerned people to ask Our Lady specifically what could be done to save the youth from the deductions of the world which were leading many of them astray and causing them to leave the Church. Our Lady gave Fr. Gobbi this definite and final solution to console the parents who are so concerned about the salvation of their children:

• Pray the Rosary!
• Every time you pray the Rosary say: “With this Rosary I bind all my children to the Immaculate Heart of Mary.”
• In doing so, Our Lady promised “to see to their souls.”

(back)
– “The rosary is the weapon that I give to these children of mine to fight the great approaching battles which await them.” (34l)
– “By it [your rosary] you are able to lay bare the plots of my Adversary; you escape from many of his deceits; you defend yourselves from many dangers which he puts in your way; it preserves you from evil and brings you ever closer to me…” (184j)
– “With this prayer, you are able to obtain from the Lord the great grace of a change of hearts, of the conversion of souls, and of the return of all humanity to God…” (336n)

The Marian Movement of Priests
P.O. Box 8 St. Francis, ME 04774-0008

I know this is off topic here, so I apologize, but I just wanted to clear something up. I couldn’t just leave this here without letting fellow devout Catholics know about this. And I don’t doubt that some of you already know. I did not know who this Father Gobbi was so I researched it and found this.
The Interior Locutions of Fr. Stefano Gobbi

The message I think, is still true. I do think that is something Mary would say. And I certainly will continue to pray “with this Rosary I bind _______ to the Immaculate Heart of Mary.” But I cannot promote something that goes against Catholic teaching, and that is some of the locutions of Father Gobbi, not what this message says. I always remember what Father Corapi says, “the devil will put in 99 truths to get in one lie.” But in the locutions of Father Gobbi, I can assure you there is more than one lie.

Again, I apologize for derailing this thread but I couldn’t just let this go because I had already posted this here and It’s not like I could now delete the post.

Back to the thread.

 

[distracted]

If so many believe the real Presecne is real, why don’t more Catholics spend time There with Him??

Yes, Truth hurts… but we are all going to meet Truth some day… and see our lives shown to us as though on a video-tape… So why not do that now…?

It seems that whenver i spend time with Jesus @ the RP, there are very few others there… and sometimes… No, usually, i am the only one There…

Jesus shows us wonderful things There… we should not be neglecting this kind of Intimacy…

 

[justasking4]

If Christ is truly present in the eucharist how is this different than Christ present in the believer? For instances it says in Colossians 1:27----to whom God willed to make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory.