Is the Real Presence valid in EO services?

[Ghosty]

In the West, Deacons can administer certain Sacraments, or Mysteries; that is not part of the ordination of a Deaconess, according to the service you posted.

**But in the East, Deacons cannot.

CHEIROTONIA is the distinguishing word here.

And the Deaconess, like the Deacon, returns the Chalice to the Altar after Communion–something a layman cannot do.**

Yes, but all this means from a Latin perspective is that Deacons in the East don’t perform all the Sacramental roles possible for them. Women don’t perform any of the Sacramental roles of the Deacon, either, so there’s no obvious problem arising.

My only point in bringing this up is that there is nothing in ordaining Deaconesses that conflicts with the Latin understanding of the Diaconate, so it won’t be grounds for Sacramental invalidity in the eyes of the Catholic Communion.

If one group says “only men over 30 can perform surgery”, and another group says “we have doctors who are men and women, but none of them perform surgery”, then there is no contradiction, only a difference in practices.

Peace and God bless!

 

[bpbasilphx]

Yes, but all this means from a Latin perspective is that Deacons in the East don’t perform all the Sacramental roles possible for them.

**My point is that the same word, CHEIROTNIA, used for ordaining to major orders is used for ordaining a deaconess.

And since many of the prayers are the same, especially the first, it is a major order.**

 

[Ghosty]

Yes, but all this means from a Latin perspective is that Deacons in the East don’t perform all the Sacramental roles possible for them.

**My point is that the same word, CHEIROTNIA, used for ordaining to major orders is used for ordaining a deaconess.

And since many of the prayers are the same, especially the first, it is a major order.**

Yes, I understand that. All I’m pointing out is that they don’t match the Latin approach to the Diaconate, so it’s unlikely to even come up as an issue.

Peace and God bless!

 

[Alethiaphile]

if there was no Papacy question, I would still be Catholic and not Eastern Orthodox because it is only in the Catholic Communion that all traditions are present and respected.
Peace and God bless!

In my experience (Archdiocese of Denver), the Byzantine tradition is marginalized in the extreme. The couple of Byzantine Catholic “communities” are trotted out by the Archdiocese in the diocesan newspaper evry once in a while; otherwise they are small and have no influence. The main Byzantine “community” has liturgy at noon Sunday at an otherwise Latin church, with a priest who doubles as the Latin parish priest. No regualr vespers, no regular confession in the Byzantine rite. That’s hardly “present and respected.”

 

[East_and_West]

In my experience (Archdiocese of Denver), the Byzantine tradition is marginalized in the extreme. The couple of Byzantine Catholic “communities” are trotted out by the Archdiocese in the diocesan newspaper evry once in a while; otherwise they are small and have no influence. The main Byzantine “community” has liturgy at noon Sunday at an otherwise Latin church, with a priest who doubles as the Latin parish priest. No regualr vespers, no regular confession in the Byzantine rite. That’s hardly “present and respected.”

They are respected so much that even though the Byzanite Churches have not been able to provide for these Catholics, the Latins still wan them around and even allow thiem to celebrate liturgy in their churches.

 

[Alethiaphile]

The one that get me is abandoning ad orietem. What was that all about?

the priest is an icon of Christ. Did Christ stand “ad orientem” at the Last Supper?

 

[Alethiaphile]

They are respected so much that even though the Byzanite Churches have not been able to provide for these Catholics, the Latins still wan them around and even allow thiem to celebrate liturgy in their churches.

 

[Formosus]

In my experience (Archdiocese of Denver), the Byzantine tradition is marginalized in the extreme. The couple of Byzantine Catholic “communities” are trotted out by the Archdiocese in the diocesan newspaper evry once in a while; otherwise they are small and have no influence. The main Byzantine “community” has liturgy at noon Sunday at an otherwise Latin church, with a priest who doubles as the Latin parish priest. No regualr vespers, no regular confession in the Byzantine rite. That’s hardly “present and respected.”

Well if the Byzantine eparchies don’t have people entering seminary to become priests, you can’t expect communities to have full time clergy. I would be greatful that the Latin diocese is willing to support them that much without a fulltime Byzantine priest present. Perhaps asking for Byzantine-rite confessions would help things or for an occasional vespers celebration. My particular mission doesn’t have vespers either and we have Byzantine clergy, but they have to drive 3 hours to even get to the mission so. I’m content with what we can get until one of our diaconal candidates can get ordained (or perhaps till I get to seminary after college )

 

[Aramis]

Where Easterns have gathered in sufficient numbers to warrant a liturgy, and make their desire for their own liturgy known to the local ordinary, the church provides that the local ordinary may provide a priest training in their liturgy, out of respect for their tradition and identity.

When a stable group have established a presence over time, they can ask for an Eastern Bishop to establish a formal mission.

Likewise, in places no Roman Rite presence exists, immigrant Latins can use the same process.

 

[Ghosty]

In my experience (Archdiocese of Denver), the Byzantine tradition is marginalized in the extreme. The couple of Byzantine Catholic “communities” are trotted out by the Archdiocese in the diocesan newspaper evry once in a while; otherwise they are small and have no influence. The main Byzantine “community” has liturgy at noon Sunday at an otherwise Latin church, with a priest who doubles as the Latin parish priest. No regualr vespers, no regular confession in the Byzantine rite. That’s hardly “present and respected.”

I don’t see how this is a case of marginalization. It sounds more like a case of the Byzantine community just being very small and perhaps not well provided for by the Byzantine Catholic Church.

The fact that such communities are mentioned in the Diocesan newspaper, despite not belonging to the Diocese at all, and that the Latin Church has provided a bi-ritual priest (I’m assuming he’s primarily a Latin priest, he might be Byzantine) indicates just the opposite of marginalization to me. It shows that the Archdiocese of Denver is working to take care of Catholics who don’t even fall under its jurisdiction.

Our local Melkite community had to appeal directly to the Eparchy of Newton and wait to receive a priest in order to have any services (though there is a Byzantine parish at the other end of the city, the cultural differences would be pretty straining, and they wouldn’t be able to provide for the needs of the Arabic speakers). Thank God we did receive a wonderful priest from the Melkite Eparchy, but it was a Melkite situation and not something directly concerning the Archdiocese of Seattle (which is, of course, a Latin jurisdiction).

Peace and God bless!

 

[Alethiaphile]

I don’t see how this is a case of marginalization. It sounds more like a case of the Byzantine community just being very small and perhaps not well provided for by the Byzantine Catholic Church.
The fact that such communities are mentioned in the Diocesan newspaper, despite not belonging to the Diocese at all, and that the Latin Church has provided a bi-ritual priest (I’m assuming he’s primarily a Latin priest, he might be Byzantine) indicates just the opposite of marginalization to me. It shows that the Archdiocese of Denver is working to take care of Catholics who don’t even fall under its jurisdiction.

It is under the jurisdiction of the Archdiocese of Denver. Did you miss the part about no regular confessions or vespers? Also, fairly frequently the Archbishop has special masses at the church, and the Byzantine liturgy is cancelled completely. What it really amounts to is a hybrid parish, with the Byzantine part marginalized.

 

[Ghosty]

It is under the jurisdiction of the Archdiocese of Denver. Did you miss the part about no regular confessions or vespers? Also, fairly frequently the Archbishop has special masses at the church, and the Byzantine liturgy is cancelled completely. What it really amounts to is a hybrid parish, with the Byzantine part marginalized.

If we’re talking about the Byzantine Catholic Church, these communities are not under the jurisdiction of the Archdiocese of Denver, which is a Latin jurisdiction. The Byzantine community of Denver is under the Eparchy of Van Nuys, and that is the Bishop directly responsible for the care of Byzantine Catholics in your area. You should contact the Eparchy of Van Nuys to see about providing a full-time priest to the area.

The fact that the Latin Archdiocese of Denver has stepped in and provided Pastoral care for the Byzantines in the area is actually a wonderful thing indeed. That’s not marginalization, that’s exceptional care that many Byzantines in other areas of the country don’t have access to at all.

Peace and God bless!

 

[dvdjs]

Holy Protection is the Ruthenian BCC parish, Eparchy of Van Nuys, in Denver. It is staffed by a young BCC priest (from our OLPH in Albuquerque); it has Saturday evening verspers. There is also a Ukranian parish in Denver.

Sts Cyril and Methodius is relatively new community served by a bi-ritual Russian Catholic priest, who is also the pastor of the much larger Roman Catholic parish, St. Elizabeth of Hungary. He is part of the Denver Archdiocese. The situation of the Russian Catholics is a bit anomalous and not really representative of Eastern Catholic churches.

Why Alethiaphile chooses to consider Sts Cyril and Methodius as the “main” Byzantine community in Denver is unclear.

 

[Amadeus]

Sts. Cyril and Methodius is at present only a mission for the Russian Byzantine Catholic community in Denver and is “attached” to the Latin parish of St. Elizabeth of Hungary.

Fr. Chrysostom Frank is the pastor of St. Elizabeth and, as a bi-ritual priest ordained in the Byzantine tradition, he also is in charge of the Russian Byzantine Catholic community.

On Sundays, he celebrates the Mass at 9:00 A.M. for the Latin parishioners and then celebrates the Divine Liturgy (Russian Byzantine Liturgy in English) at noon for the Russian Byzantine Catholic community.

I think Fr. Frank is a convert from Orthodoxy. He is married with 3 children.

 

[Aramis]

Sts. Cyril and Methodius is at present only a mission for the Russian Byzantine Catholic community in Denver and is “attached” to the Latin parish of St. Elizabeth of Hungary.
[snip]
I think Fr. Frank is a convert from Orthodoxy. He is married with 3 children.

If he converted from the OCA, he’s a priest of the Russian Catholic Church. Since the Russian Catholic Church has no hierarchs of its own, the ordinary of the place (Latin takes precedence) is their bishop.

So Russian Catholics and former Russian Orthodox properly are his flock to minister to. It’s that whole overlapping jurisidiction issue.

Hopefully, soon, the Russian Catholic Church will have a bishop. Or at least a Bishop-Exarch.

 

[Ghosty]

Thanks for the information, guys! If it’s indeed the Russian Catholic community that Alethiaphile is referring to then we are dealing with a different situation than I thought, but my sentiment remains the same and is perhaps even strengthened. While I want to see the Russian Catholic Church with its own hierarchy, the fact that it is apparently being supported the way it is by the Latin Archdiocese is a very good thing.

Russian Catholics are in a unique situation as far as Eastern Catholics go, depending on the Latin Hierarchy. It doesn’t mean that they’re marginalized, though; on the contrary, if they were truly marginalized they would cease to exist entirely!

Peace and God bless!

 

[Aramis]

Thanks for the information, guys! If it’s indeed the Russian Catholic community that Alethiaphile is referring to then we are dealing with a different situation than I thought, but my sentiment remains the same and is perhaps even strengthened. While I want to see the Russian Catholic Church with its own hierarchy, the fact that it is apparently being supported the way it is by the Latin Archdiocese is a very good thing.

Russian Catholics are in a unique situation as far as Eastern Catholics go, depending on the Latin Hierarchy. It doesn’t mean that they’re marginalized, though; on the contrary, if they were truly marginalized they would cease to exist entirely!

Peace and God bless!

Sadly, Ghosty, they are NOT unique… they are one of 3 Byzantine Catholic Churches Sui Iuris who have no hierarchs of their own! (One has an exarch. Another hasn’t even any priests left!)

The pogroms of Eastern Europe have been particularly hard on Eastern Catholics.

 

[Ghosty]

Sadly, Ghosty, they are NOT unique… they are one of 3 Byzantine Catholic Churches Sui Iuris who have no hierarchs of their own! (One has an exarch. Another hasn’t even any priests left!)

The pogroms of Eastern Europe have been particularly hard on Eastern Catholics.

Ooooo, I didn’t know that!

What are the other Churches in the same boat? Sadly, this is one of the aspects of Eastern Catholicism I know the least about, since my experience with Eastern Catholicism is pretty much Maronite, Melkite, and a touch of Ukrainian exposure, and the current lived experience of these Churches seems quite different from that of a number of other Eastern Churches (especially the Melkite Church, which I’m obviously most familiar with).

Peace and God bless!

 

[Aramis]

Ooooo, I didn’t know that!

What are the other Churches in the same boat? Sadly, this is one of the aspects of Eastern Catholicism I know the least about, since my experience with Eastern Catholicism is pretty much Maronite, Melkite, and a touch of Ukrainian exposure, and the current lived experience of these Churches seems quite different from that of a number of other Eastern Churches (especially the Melkite Church, which I’m obviously most familiar with).

Peace and God bless!

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=3060831&postcount=19
and the following post give a wonderful treatment to the issue. From that list:

* Eparchial Churches sine episcopi

      o Albanian Greek-Catholic Church
      o Belarusan Greek-Catholic Church
      o Georgian Greek-Catholic Church
      o Russian Greek-Catholic Church

Specifically, the Georgian GCC is sine presbyteri…

 

[East_and_West]