Is the Restoration of the Permanent Diaconate "the biggest thing to hit the Church since Martin Luther?"

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Cristiano said:
Instituted people are laity that has been instituted by the bishop to do something but they have not received the holy orders. For example acolytes in my parish are instituted men. Lectors are instituted but readers are not. EMHC are not instituted but deputized (?) by the pastor. In my diocese students in the diaconate formation are also instituted by the bishop as acolytes and lectors. In the early Church bishops instituted women, by a blessing with imposition of the hands, into service to assist other women entering the Church. However, such a blessing is not an automatic ordination, otherwise I have been ordained too when the bishop imposed his hands on my head to grant a simple blessing upon my request.
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Okay gotcha. I thought you were speaking of instituted versus ordained deacons.
 
TrueLight said:
Well I started the thread even though I was quoting you. 😃
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Nice transition back to the original topic… 😉

I think that 100 or 150 years from now, the sacramental presence of the deacon as a visible sign of Christ’s Church active in the world will have a tremendous impact.

Think about when a priest in a collar walks into the grocery store to buy a carton of milk. Everyone looks. No one is ambivalent. People either wag their head in disgust, smile and approach him with great joy, or silenty wonder what would make a man do such a thing as become a priest. His very presence forces one to make a choice, even if they are unaware that they are making a choice.

Same deal for a Sister or Brother. I saw our local Dominican Sisters in Publix once, and a little girl pointed and said with a smooth southern drawl, “Look Mama. It’s Mary!” 😉

The deacon is that sacramental presence, but engaged in the world, in married life, secular jobs and day-to-day persuits. That is why I think it has a huge potential. A visible, sacramental sign of Christ’s church engaged in the workplace and in the neighborhood, bearing witness to Christ and his Church has tremendous potential.

Is this fantasy or wishfull thinking?

-Tim-
 
TimothyH said:
Nice transition back to the original topic… 😉

I think that 100 or 150 years from now, the sacramental presence of the deacon as a visible sign of Christ’s Church active in the world will have a tremendous impact.

Think about when a priest in a collar walks into the grocery store to buy a carton of milk. Everyone looks. No one is ambivalent. People either wag their head in disgust, smile and approach him with great joy, or silenty wonder what would make a man do such a thing as become a priest. His very presence forces one to make a choice, even if they are unaware that they are making a choice.

Same deal for a Sister or Brother. I saw our local Dominican Sisters in Publix once, and a little girl pointed and said with a smooth southern drawl, “Look Mama. It’s Mary!” 😉

The deacon is that sacramental presence, but engaged in the world, in married life, secular jobs and day-to-day persuits. That is why I think it has a huge potential. A visible, sacramental sign of Christ’s church engaged in the workplace and in the neighborhood, bearing witness to Christ and his Church has tremendous potential.

Is this fantasy or wishfull thinking?

-Tim-
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How would it be visible? What do deacons wear? Do they wear the collar?
 
Cristiano said:
Instituted people are laity that has been instituted by the bishop to do something but they have not received the holy orders, no ontological change. For example acolytes in my parish are instituted men, and because they are instituted by the bishop they can purify the sacred vessels if needed. Lectors are instituted but readers are not. EMHC are not instituted but deputized (?) by the pastor. In my diocese students in the diaconate formation are also instituted by the bishop as acolytes and lectors. In the early Church bishops instituted women, by a blessing with imposition of the hands, into service to assist other women entering the Church. However, such a blessing is not an automatic ordination, otherwise I have been ordained too when the bishop imposed his hands on my head to grant a simple blessing upon my request.
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An acolyte is also an EMHC.
 
TrueLight said:
How would it be visible? What do deacons wear? Do they wear the collar?
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But in many places they do not, at the express command of their bishop. A controversial topic. Where they are worn, a deacon might wear a grey clerical shirt instead of a black one.
 
TimothyH said:
N
Think about when a priest in a collar walks into the grocery store to buy a carton of milk. Everyone looks. No one is ambivalent. People either wag their head in disgust, smile and approach him with great joy, or silenty wonder what would make a man do such a thing as become a priest. His very presence forces one to make a choice, even if they are unaware that they are making a choice.

Same deal for a Sister or Brother. I saw our local Dominican Sisters in Publix once, and a little girl pointed and said with a smooth southern drawl, “Look Mama. It’s Mary!” 😉
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👍

This is a great point. The visibility of those with Holy Orders and those in the religious life is very important for the reasons you state. I think it is further heightened when the cleric or religious are wearing traditional habits, cassocks, etc, because it further sets them apart.

One of the SSPX Benedictine brothers was with a friend of mine at Lowe’s buying some materials. Of course, he was in full habit. While they were waiting in line to pay, a little boy came up to him and asked if he was a ninja 😃

Indeed, a ninja for Christ 🙂
The deacon is that sacramental presence, but engaged in the world, in married life, secular jobs and day-to-day persuits. That is why I think it has a huge potential. A visible, sacramental sign of Christ’s church engaged in the workplace and in the neighborhood, bearing witness to Christ and his Church has tremendous potential.
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Is this fantasy or wishfull thinking?
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I think it is a great hope and something to be prayed for.
  • PAX
 
TrueLight said:
How can you tell the difference between a deacon and a priest?
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Well, it would be clear if the priests would wear their cassocks 🙂

Out and about dress for clerics:

Deacon = collar

Priest = cassock + collar

Bishop = cassock + collar + pectoral cross + ring

Then we would all know who everyone is 🙂
  • PAX
 
TrueLight said:
How can you tell the difference between a deacon and a priest?
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When vested a priest will wear a stole around his neck hanging straight down. A deacon will wear his stole over his left shoulder diagonally (leaving his right arm free for service).

The deacons at my parish, when they wear their “Blacks”, will wear a small pin in the shape of a cross with a diagonal stripe across it to distinguish themselves from the priests. One has a shirt with a diagonal stripe sewn into the pocket. Some also wear a polo shirt with the logo and “Permanent Diaconate” on it. I have also seen the grey shirt.

Father Z has a post about vestments. What is interesting to me is that the subdeacon and deacon can wear exactly the same vestments but when a deacon wears it, it is a dalmatic. When a subdeacon wears the exact same garment, it becomes a tunic. Trads would probably find it interesting…wdtprs.com/blog/2011/01/quaeritur-of-subdeacons-and-tunics

Either way, the dalmatic has sleeves. I think the priests chausible doesn’t have sleeves?

-Tim-
 
EcceAgnusDei said:
👍

This is a great point. The visibility of those with Holy Orders and those in the religious life is very important for the reasons you state. I think it is further heightened when the cleric or religious are wearing traditional habits, cassocks, etc, because it further sets them apart.

One of the SSPX Benedictine brothers was with a friend of mine at Lowe’s buying some materials. Of course, he was in full habit. While they were waiting in line to pay, a little boy came up to him and asked if he was a ninja 😃

Indeed, a ninja for Christ 🙂

I think it is a great hope and something to be prayed for.
  • PAX
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You know, everyone once in a while I find that you trad guys are OK. 😃

I think wasserfall has a great devotion to Mary if I am not mistaken? Or was that you?

I actually agree with you on the cassock thing. I’m not about to advocate that priest in Atlanta Georgia wear black cassocks in summer. :eek: But it would be nice to see them once in a while. We have an Opus Dei priest come once in a while and you can spot him a mile away.

The ninja comment is funny. That boy will never forget that.

There is a great book titled “About Being a Priest”, by Suarez, which talks about the priest being a walking contradiction - a visible sign of God in the secular world - who elicits a reaction wherever he goes. The very presence of the priest means that one must choose, assuming you can recognize him as such. 🤷

Sometime I’ll tell the full story of the Baptist pastor who pulled over when my car broke down in front of the Church. The young Baptist used trying to help me as an excuse to try to convert me. Then my pastor pulled up wearing his collar, walked over and said, “Everything OK? I can give you a ride home in an hour, after I hear confessions.” I replied, “No Father, this man offered me a ride home already. Thanks anyway.” I don’t think this young Baptist pastor had ever seen a priest in real life, let alone heard someone call one Father or ever heard anyone talk in such a nonchalant way about confession. The guy’s skin turned the wierdest shade of grey I had ever seen. He was visibly shaken up. I really wanted to say, “Hey, wanna see the basement where we do the exorcisms?”

-Tim-
 
TimothyH said:
When vested a priest will wear a stole around his neck hanging straight down. A deacon will wear his stole over his left shoulder diagonally (leaving his right arm free for service).

The deacons at my parish, when they wear their “Blacks”, will wear a small pin in the shape of a cross with a diagonal stripe across it to distinguish themselves from the priests. One has a shirt with a diagonal stripe sewn into the pocket. Some also wear a polo shirt with the logo and “Permanent Diaconate” on it. I have also seen the grey shirt.

Father Z has a post about vestments. What is interesting to me is that the subdeacon and deacon can wear exactly the same vestments but when a deacon wears it, it is a dalmatic. When a subdeacon wears the exact same garment, it becomes a tunic. Trads would probably find it interesting…wdtprs.com/blog/2011/01/quaeritur-of-subdeacons-and-tunics

Either way, the dalmatic has sleeves. I think the priests chausible doesn’t have sleeves?

-Tim-
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Deacons wear stoles, subdeacons do not.

Classically the tunicle and dalmatic are somewhat different. If they are, it is usually that the dalmatic has an extra bar of ornamentation or it will have heavier embroidery. However, many times, probably usually, they are the same vestment and the only thing that is different is the stole versus no stole. This is especially clear in the Ambrosian Rite where stoles are worn as a top layer rather than under.

Dalmatics/tunicles have sleeves and the sides are sometimes sewn shut; the sleeves can be flappy or closed. Chasubles never have sleeves and the sides are never sewn.

PS Perhaps the cross the deacons wear is a Byzantine cross.
 
arkwright said:
I don’t see the restoration of the permanent diaconate , good and beneficial as it is , as the biggest thing to hit the Church since Martin Luther .

Above it I would place the Ecumenical Movement , the reform of the Liturgy , and the emphasis that the call to holiness is for every person in the Church .

But sadly I believe that the biggest thing to hit the Church since Martin Luther is the child abuse crisis .
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I think this is the best answer so far. However, I disagree that the child abuse crisis is the biggest thing to hit the Church since Martin Luther. I would also add another thing, the Church’s retreat from its unflinchingly triumphalist attitude to other denominations and religions. While the Church still holds that it is the true path to God through Christ, and that all must follow this path in one way or another, it has become much less repressive of other faiths, much more willing to dialogue, and much more accepting that non-Catholics are not necessarily damned to Hell.

I think tolerance of opposing denominations in the political world in large part traces back to the Peace of Westphalia in 1648. As the idea spread, the Church became politically weaker and was eventually forced to reconsider its approach. Since all of this in one way or another leads back to Martin Luther, I suppose you could lump it all under him, but I would argue that his specific contribution to the change was pretty small potatoes.
 
TrueLight said:
It is traditional to have a great devotion to Mary. So come home. 😃
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My parish chants the Angus Dei and Sanctus in Latin and depedning on the priest, chants the Kyrie in Greek. Sometimes the choir chants Tantum Ergo as the communion hymn.

And I’ll tell you a secret if you promise not to tell anyone. It will ruin my reputation if this gets out. I genuflect when I approach and recieve on the tounge.

ProVobis is going to roll up in a fetal position when he reads this. 😃

-Tim-
 
TimothyH said:
My parish chants the Angus Dei and Sanctus in Latin and depedning on the priest, chants the Kyrie in Greek. Sometimes the choir chants Tantum Ergo as the communion hymn.

And I’ll tell you a secret if you promise not to tell anyone. It will ruin my reputation if this gets out. I genuflect when I approach and recieve on the tounge.

ProVobis is going to roll up in a fetal position when he reads this. 😃

-Tim-
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I curled up into a fetal position as soon as I read that.
 
TimothyH said:
I genuflect when I approach and recieve on the tounge.
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I used to do this before my back got bad, now I simply bow instead of genuflect. If my back gets better I’ll probably go back to the way I used to do it.
 
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