Is the rich man in hell or purgatory?

[goout]

You’re assuming the Jesus Christ the Son of God is limited by human language in expressing realities that are beyond human understanding.

Christ uses human language for our understanding, not to rigidly delineate things that God alone knows. The words of Christ are for us to understand, and they are also mysterious, in that they draw us into realities that are inexpressible by human language.

 

[goout]

Do I have to deny the resurrection and the reality of hell to make a point?

You are assuming that transcendent realities are limited to human time and human space and fully defined by human words.

 

[goout]

The Church does not dogmatically teach that there is a defined physical place called hell on a map. The CCC as quoted above also refers to " a state of definitive exclusion…"
Human beings understand places, like Atlanta GA on a map. So those are useful concepts but we do not know where hell is or if it is a physical place. No one really knows.
Your opinion about the nature of it is just that and is not binding for Christian belief.

 

[goout]

And I’m going to find myself in a really bad place if I don’t get to work now.
I will post a map.google link to prove it.

 

[JustLOL]

You are basing what Christ said, rightfully, on what is written in scripture…but sticking with the CCC, check out (roughly) 110-120 and see the difference in acceptable Church teachings on the interpretation of scripture, and don’t confuse the Literal Sense with taking scripture literally…It can be argued that Christ’s discussions on “hell” are better interpreted from the anagogical or metaphoric spiritual sense.

 

[ConnorMM]

However, I would say that the whole point of Purgatory is to cleanse the soul. Therefore, you cannot choose to cross over into heaven from purgatory, you must be brought there once you are cleansed. And why would anyone in heaven go to purgatory where they would be in pain

 

[Inquiry]

I suspect anyone in Heaven would willingly and joyfully enter purgatory, if it served God.

 

[englands123]

As Jesus neared death, He said, “[It is finished]” [John 19:30].

His suffering in our place was completed. His soul/spirit went to hades (the place of the dead). Jesus did not go to “hell” or the suffering side of hades; He went to “Abraham’s side” or the blessed side of hades. Jesus’ suffering ended the moment He died. The payment for sin was paid. He then awaited the resurrection of His body and His return to glory in His ascension. Did Jesus go to hell? No. Did Jesus go to sheol/hades? Yes.

 

[PetraG]

Todays Gospel reading of the rich man and Lazarus. Is the rich man in hell or purgatory? I was wondering this. Of course it is just a parable but I doubt for one the rich man is in hell just for indifference or whatever it was and was a sin of omission but not commission. I don’t think he committed a mortal sin. Plus if he was in hell I doubt he would be able to even see Abraham and Lazarus let alone speak to them in heaven.

Based on Matthew 25, I think the implication is Hell.
Then they will answer and say, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or ill or in prison, and not minister to your needs?’
He will answer them, ‘Amen, I say to you, what you did not do for one of these least ones, you did not do for me.’
And these will go off to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.” (Matt 25:44-46)

That is not to say that there isn’t an intermediate case of generosity mixed with self-absorption that would indicate a soul in need of purgation rather than one that had fully chosen total self-absorption.
After all, notice that the first and only thing the rich man said during the whole exchange was some variation on “give us” or “give me.” He never said, “I am so sorry, Lazarus, for my lack of love, for how I failed you. Would you forgive me?” He talked as if interest in escaping punishment was his only “angle,” even for members of his family.
That is why I don’t think Our Lord meant to depict a fictional occupant of Purgatory in his story.

 

[PetraG]

It can be argued that Christ’s discussions on “hell” are better interpreted from the anagogical or metaphoric spiritual sense.

You can argue that, but maybe it is better to take serious metaphors seriously.
After all, can we think that in the cases when he talked about eternal punishment, he never meant really and truly eternal? The question would have to be asked: If he ever meant to say that, then, how could he have said it in a way that we would believe? What means of saying that, different than the means he chose, would we have accepted that message from him? If there is none, then I think our filters have to be presumed to be faulty.

He made the point in the parable of Lazarus and the rich man that the rich man and his family had heard Moses and the prophets and ignored what they heard. I think perhaps that family was making the mistake of not believing that the Torah or the literature handed down from the prophets was meant to be taken seriously.

 

[PetraG]

Before the Resurrection, even the righteous would have been waiting for the full Beatific Vision, correct?

In the story of Lazarus, after all, Our Lord didn’t say he was in Heaven with the angels. He said he was in the bosom of Abraham. Even Abraham and the Prophets had to wait to see their Redemption.

 

[Gorgias]

As I see it, there are two lessons:

Sure… but to what end? In this parable, it’s so that you don’t end up in hell…!!!

I think it is vague in this area, on purpose.

Had the teaching on purgatory been presented at this point, though? Would it have been recognized by the original intended audience? Or would they have recognized it as ‘eternal punishment’?

That’s an important consideration in discerning the meaning of the evangelist…

Well the people in Purgatory do not go into Heaven either.

This is the really interesting part: the saints in heaven and the souls in purgatory are able to pray for others; however, it’s not possible to pray someone out of hell. The allegory we’re seeing here, when the rich man asks for their assistance, is that the response is “sorry; we are unable to help you.”

It’s hell. Really. This isn’t a “until you pay the last penny” parable – that’s found elsewhere.

My priest said Lazarus, being in Abraham’s bosom, was in purgatory.

He was either speaking loosely, or mis-spoke. “Abraham’s bosom” (a.k.a. the “Limbus Patrum”) was a temporary place of waiting until Christ opened the gates of heaven. It was not necessary to be suffering purgation in order to be there. Yes, both of these are understood to be the abode of the dead. But, if not the ‘hell’ we speak of today, then certainly a “waiting room of torment” on the way there.

Of course not…you confuse the events of Easter Sunday with Holy Saturday

Jesus rose on the third day – you confuse the Western and Hebrew ways of counting the start of the day (Christ was raised on Sunday, which began with sunset on Saturday).

besides that, hell or purgatory is a state of the soul, and not a physical “location”, so that point is questionable too

Sure. But that’s a weak point. Just because they’re not physical, doesn’t mean you can’t talk about what they’re experiencing, using the allegory of “location.”

 

[Nelka]

Definitely Hell.

 

[Cathoholic]

(name removed by moderator) . . .

Even the catechism says we descend into hell, emphasizing it is a place.

No the Catechism does not say that. (At least in the sense of Eternal Condemnation.)

Everyone’s body descends into “the grave” so to speak. Hades.

But everybody does NOT go to Hell in the sense of Eternal Damnation.

The citation you gave concerns people NOT in a state of grace. It concerns
people who die in a state of mortal sin.

Here it is again with emphasis mine (right from your post).

1035 The teaching of the Church affirms the existence of hell and its eternity. Immediately after death the souls of those who die in a state of mortal sin descend into hell, where they suffer the punishments of hell, "eternal fire."617 The chief punishment of hell is eternal separation from God, in whom alone man can possess the life and happiness for which he was created and for which he longs.

 

[Cathoholic]

(name removed by moderator) . . . .

So I’m still right, the damned descend into hell, a place.

Sooner or later it will have to be a “place” because at the end of time we get our bodies back.

Every human gets their body back.
The people in Heaven and the people in Eternal condemnation (Hell in the eternal sense).